How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Fionn1952

timthumbni wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaaz_ View Post
dissidents republicans and id struggle to condemn their actions



You would struggle to condemn dissident republicans. Oh dear. Would you say that to the faces of family of that wee girl that the same republicans murdered last year. (The journalist from Londonderry)

Fair plays to admitting that though. It’s clear a lot of the republican types on here get their rocks off on the IRAs murderous actions but they wouldn’t be as brazen as yourself and write it clearly down. You have no issue with republicans bombing and shooting people. Watch out they don’t bomb some one close to you though. They have history in killing their supposed “own kind”

Just to remind you about your failure to condemn dissident republicans again. I thought this was very harsh even for here.

Did you just copy/paste this from the other thread, in which you were already informed that Lyra McKee was from Belfast?

timthumbni

timthumbni wrote: »

You would struggle to condemn dissident republicans. Oh dear. Would you say that to the faces of family of that wee girl that the same republicans murdered last year. (The journalist from Londonderry)

Fair plays to admitting that though. It’s clear a lot of the republican types on here get their rocks off on the IRAs murderous actions but they wouldn’t be as brazen as yourself and write it clearly down. You have no issue with republicans bombing and shooting people. Watch out they don’t bomb some one close to you though. They have history in killing their supposed “own kind”

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Did you just copy/paste this from the other thread, in which you were already informed that Lyra McKee was from Belfast?

No. I realised his post was from this thread (that I couldn't locate from my tablet device, rather than the other thread so copied from my earlier post here again. Just wanted to confirm why or if he still agrees that he would struggle to condemn dissident irish republicans.

edit - this nothing to with where Lyra was from - I'm unsure why anyone would pick that part from what I said anyway?

Not a hard question. thanks.

Fionn1952

timthumbni wrote: »

No. I realised his post was from this thread (that I couldn't locate from my tablet device, rather than the other thread so copied from my earlier post here again. Just wanted to confirm why or if he still agrees that he would struggle to condemn dissident irish republicans.

edit - this nothing to with where Lyra was from - I'm unsure why anyone would pick that part from what I said anyway?

Not a hard question. thanks.

Because it seems somewhat....predatory and manipulative to try and make a highly emotive point when you're so uninvested in the situation that you don't even know where the woman was from.

It makes it seem somewhat like who did it is more important to you than what happened, Tim.

Just to be very clear (as I've pointed out before....certain folk have a tendency to try and portray any criticism of their point as support for the other), I have no issue whatsoever with unequivocally condemning what happened to Lyra McKee and those who did it.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Maybe you could give me an example of a government that never made a mistake?

I can give you an example of a Government who have made a lot of 'mistakes', but never admits or acknowledges their mistakes or apologise for them.

And of course the more powerful the nation the more the microscope is applied.

Actually, television and 24 hour news changed the ability of countries like the UK getting away with stuff that was not reported in the past. TV footage of what happened in Derry on Bloody Sunday went around the world and shamed Britain. Sen. Teddy Kennedy saw the coverage and contacted John Hume. That was about the time that the UK lost its ''special relationship'' with the US.

Roi get away with little attention because they are insignificant. The terrible indiscretions which took place under Roi government, eg Church sexual abuse, discrimination against anyone different eg Presbyterians, travellers, gays, women, etc flies under the radar.
If you were part of a major world nation like me you’d be under more scrutiny

Seriously, the Republic is light years ahead of your nation on civil liberties. In fact, Ireland is ranked Nol 3 in the world (after NZ & Switzerland) whereas the UK doesn't even make the Top 10.



All of those groups that you mention are protected by the Constitution. If you have a problem with discrimination you can take the Government to Court (which has happened on numerous occasions).



As for Presbyterians being discriminated against in the ROI - thats news to me. Can you explain where that has occurred.

jm08

timthumbni wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaaz_ View Post
dissidents republicans and id struggle to condemn their actions

You would struggle to condemn dissident republicans. Oh dear. Would you say that to the faces of family of that wee girl that the same republicans murdered last year. (The journalist from Londonderry)

Fair plays to admitting that though. It’s clear a lot of the republican types on here get their rocks off on the IRAs murderous actions but they wouldn’t be as brazen as yourself and write it clearly down. You have no issue with republicans bombing and shooting people. Watch out they don’t bomb some one close to you though. They have history in killing their supposed “own kind”

Just to remind you about your failure to condemn dissident republicans again. I thought this was very harsh even for here.

Personally, I have every issue with dissident republicans continuing the war when there is a political, peaceful process now in place. This wasn't the case prior to the GFA. Its a pity that it was resisted for so long by unionists (Sunningdale & Anglo-Irish Treaty). They could have saved a lot of lives if they came to the table a bit sooner. They have as much blood on their hands as the PIRA.

timthumbni

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Because it seems somewhat....predatory and manipulative to try and make a highly emotive point when you're so uninvested in the situation that you don't even know where the woman was from.

It makes it seem somewhat like who did it is more important to you than what happened, Tim.

Just to be very clear (as I've pointed out before....certain folk have a tendency to try and portray any criticism of their point as support for the other), I have no issue whatsoever with unequivocally condemning what happened to Lyra McKee and those who did it.

I wrongly referred to the wee girl the irish republicans murdered as being from Londonderry. She was from Belfast. My apologies.

Just to be very clear myself (and i never referred to you) I was asking the poster referred to as Blaaz if he still stood by his post (on this very thread) who said that he would struggle to condemn dissident republican actions. (despite the fact that they had just murdered a wee girl from Belfast in Londonderry or even Doire.

Can I ask is the fact that I (by an honest mistake) referred to a victim of murder as being from the city where she was murdered, as opposed from where she lived (Belfast), was more important to pick up on than the fact a republican poster on here said they would struggle to condemn dissident republicans.

timthumbni

jm08 wrote: »

Personally, I have every issue with dissident republicans continuing the war when there is a political, peaceful process now in place. This wasn't the case prior to the GFA. Its a pity that it was resisted for so long by unionists (Sunningdale & Anglo-Irish Treaty). They could have saved a lot of lives if they came to the table a bit sooner. They have as much blood on their hands as the PIRA.

Well, going by statistics the IRA terrorists murdered many more than any other party involved. Though when you consider they thought 3 children and 6 adults in Claudy in the 70s right through to the two little boys in Warrington were targets to "unite ireland" its hardly surprising.

How blowing up an 8 year old girl in Claudy (hardly uniting anything really eh?) to the putting bombs to kill kids in northern England was clever is beyond me. I'm beginning to think the provos may not have been as intelligent as they thought they were. Sad for the rest of us normal people in NI.

Fionn1952

timthumbni wrote: »

I wrongly referred to the wee girl the irish republicans murdered as being from Londonderry. She was from Belfast. My apologies.

Just to be very clear myself (and i never referred to you) I was asking the poster referred to as Blaaz if he still stood by his post (on this very thread) who said that he would struggle to condemn dissident republican actions. (despite the fact that they had just murdered a wee girl from Belfast in Londonderry or even Doire.

Can I ask is the fact that I (by an honest mistake) referred to a victim of murder as being from the city where she was murdered, as opposed from where she lived (Belfast), was more important to pick up on than the fact a republican poster on here said they would struggle to condemn dissident republicans.

More important? Absolutely not. I missed the post in which you state someone refused to condemn the murder of Lyra McKee. I would have had no issue criticising it if I had - my posting history will make it very clear that I don't have any issue with doing so.

It is still important to point out when people are using tragedy to push a political agenda however, particularly when those people don't even know the basics of the story. It gives your post the appearance of faux-sympathy mixed with an weird sense of almost pleasure that you've, 'got one' to show up, 'themmuns'

We tend to post in the same sort of threads you and I, and I could be mistaken, but I can't recall a single post of yours calling out or condemning an injustice carried out on the British side of things, whereas you regularly feel the need to bring up those on the Nationalist side, sometimes shoehorning in barely related examples. That's what makes me lean towards suspecting that the victims aren't as important to you as the perpetrators. I find it really distasteful and highly disrespectful to those victims.

Like I said I could be mistaken of course, but putting a little time into basic fact checking would help avoid undermining your points with such doubt should you be totally genuine.

FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

Well, going by statistics the IRA terrorists murdered many more than any other party involved. Though when you consider they thought 3 children and 6 adults in Claudy in the 70s right through to the two little boys in Warrington were targets to "unite ireland" its hardly surprising.

How blowing up an 8 year old girl in Claudy (hardly uniting anything really eh?) to the putting bombs to kill kids in northern England was clever is beyond me. I'm beginning to think the provos may not have been as intelligent as they thought they were. Sad for the rest of us normal people in NI.

Using selected victims again to try to feel morally superior.

jm08

timthumbni wrote: »

Well, going by statistics the IRA terrorists murdered many more than any other party involved. Though when you consider they thought 3 children and 6 adults in Claudy in the 70s right through to the two little boys in Warrington were targets to "unite ireland" its hardly surprising.

How blowing up an 8 year old girl in Claudy (hardly uniting anything really eh?) to the putting bombs to kill kids in northern England was clever is beyond me. I'm beginning to think the provos may not have been as intelligent as they thought they were. Sad for the rest of us normal people in NI.

186 children (according to book Children of the Troubles) under the age of 16 were killed during the troubles.


British Army / RUC killed 48 of them (such as 2 year old killed by CS gas thrown into his house, or another child run over by a Saracen Tank, to a child with learning disabilities being shot by the BA when he ran away from British soldiers).


The PIRA always tried to send warnings that bombs were going to go off. Sometimes the British Security forces acted on these warnings, sometimes they did not. In the case of the Warrington bombs, the police said they did not get a warning, whereas the PIRA said they also contacted the Samaritans.



The supposedly normal people in NI (loyalists) killed 50 children.



The abnormal republican groups killed 80 children.


Now, totting up the casualties, that would British State forces 98; Republicans 80.
I think the British State wins the murdering children headcount.

timthumbni

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Using selected victims again to try to feel morally superior.

Not really. The Ira obviously spectacularly failed to “unite” Ireland or get England out of da Ireland though as the Ira seemed brainlessly ( despite all their degrees in jail) to think it would. That was their sole mission statement.

It’s almost as if their whole campaign was an oxymoron and counterproductive. You can’t unite anyone by such murderous methods. I wonder was it really to try and Unite Ireland or drive the unionists out of NI. Either way it’s failed. Miserably. Only a lot of dead bodies. And a lot of minds that will never be “United” due to the murder.

The loyalists were idiots and terrorists too. I won’t discriminate there. Others on here do. Silly really.

Fionn1952

jm08 wrote: »

186 children (according to book Children of the Troubles) under the age of 16 were killed during the troubles.


British Army / RUC killed 48 of them (such as 2 year old killed by CS gas thrown into his house, or another child run over by a Saracen Tank, to a child with learning disabilities being shot by the BA when he ran away from British soldiers).


The PIRA always tried to send warnings that bombs were going to go off. Sometimes the British Security forces acted on these warnings, sometimes they did not. In the case of the Warrington bombs, the police said they did not get a warning, whereas the PIRA said they also contacted the Samaritans.



The supposedly normal people in NI (loyalists) killed 50 children.



The abnormal republican groups killed 80 children.


Now, totting up the casualties, that would British State forces 98; Republicans 80.
I think the British State wins the murdering children headcount.

The tit-for-tat nonsense gets us nowhere. One murdered child was too many. Pointing out that one side, 'only' has 80 dead children doesn't paint the positive light you're trying to spin.

joseywhales

'Give us 18 children we'll call it quits lads', absolute madness

timthumbni

jm08 wrote: »

The PIRA always tried to send warnings that bombs were going to go off. Sometimes the British Security forces acted on these warnings, sometimes they did not. In the case of the Warrington bombs, the police said they did not get a warning, whereas the PIRA said they also contacted the Samaritans.

The supposedly normal people in NI (loyalists) killed 50 children.

The abnormal republican groups killed 80 children.

.

The Ira always “tried” to send warnings did they?

Well, they pretty much fecked that up didn’t they? It doesn’t nae take a genius to work out that leaving a bomb outside a McDonald’s could potentially have murderous consequences. Did they warn the McDonald’s staff beforehand?

Re the loyalists terrorists that murdered people I would not consider them normal either or I would be a hypocrite.

Just like jimmy sands I consider them terrorists. No amount of dancing around will take away that fact. Every day either the loyalist or republican terrorists walked about their main aim was murder, extortion and general crime. Simples.

timthumbni

jm08 wrote: »

186 children (according to book Children of the Troubles) under the age of 16 were killed during the troubles.


British Army / RUC killed 48 of them (such as 2 year old killed by CS gas thrown into his house, or another child run over by a Saracen Tank, to a child with learning disabilities being shot by the BA when he ran away from British soldiers).


The PIRA always tried to send warnings that bombs were going to go off. Sometimes the British Security forces acted on these warnings, sometimes they did not. In the case of the Warrington bombs, the police said they did not get a warning, whereas the PIRA said they also contacted the Samaritans.



The supposedly normal people in NI (loyalists) killed 50 children.



The abnormal republican groups killed 80 children.


Now, totting up the casualties, that would British State forces 98; Republicans 80.
I think the British State wins the murdering children headcount.

That whole post is a bit off actually. I ask where is the so called “United ireland” coming from there.

FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

Not really. The Ira obviously spectacularly failed to “unite” Ireland or get England out of da Ireland though as the Ira seemed brainlessly ( despite all their degrees in jail) to think it would. That was their sole mission statement.

It’s almost as if their whole campaign was an oxymoron and counterproductive. You can’t unite anyone by such murderous methods. I wonder was it really to try and Unite Ireland or drive the unionists out of NI. Either way it’s failed. Miserably. Only a lot of dead bodies. And a lot of minds that will never be “United” due to the murder.

The loyalists were idiots and terrorists too. I won’t discriminate there. Others on here do. Silly really.

I have yet to see an army going into a war/conflict claiming that they 'might' do something.

I.E. 'We might get Britain to leave Ireland...or to look at another great war cry...'We will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them in the air and when we are broke and almost beaten appeal to the big boys to come and help us beat the Germans'.

In other words Tim, what you need to do is look at what nationalists had before the conflict/war and what they had after it was over. Look a bit closer at who has been whinging and agitating since your superiors agreed an international agreement over your heads. Look at who is treating your community as the gullible fools since Brexit, even this week, telling you in your own home town that there will not be a sea border - while in front of your eyes he is funding the infrastructure to establish just that.

Brainless you say?

There is nothing smart about letting a war/conflict break out but your incessant taunting is just that ...taunting.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have yet to see an army going into a war/conflict claiming that they 'might' do something.

I.E. 'We might get Britain to leave Ireland...or to look at another great war cry...'We will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them in the air and when we are broke and almost beaten appeal to the big boys to come and help us beat the Germans'.

In other words Tim, what you need to do is look at what nationalists had before the conflict/war and what they had after it was over. Look a bit closer at who has been whinging and agitating since your superiors agreed an international agreement over your heads. Look at who is treating your community as the gullible fools since Brexit, even this week, telling you in your own home town that there will not be a sea border - while in front of your eyes he is funding the infrastructure to establish just that.

Brainless you say?

There is nothing smart about letting a war/conflict break out but your incessant taunting is just that ...taunting.

Now why do you have to resort to ridiculing and mocking francie?I've always been grateful for the Irish soldiers who fought in both world wars and some of my relatives who fought and died in ww1 were 1st and 2nd generation Irish descent-.You are in effect ridiculing your own people.

jm08

timthumbni wrote: »

The Ira always “tried” to send warnings did they?

Well, they pretty much fecked that up didn’t they? It doesn’t nae take a genius to work out that leaving a bomb outside a McDonald’s could potentially have murderous consequences. Did they warn the McDonald’s staff beforehand?

Re the loyalists terrorists that murdered people I would not consider them normal either or I would be a hypocrite.

Just like jimmy sands I consider them terrorists. No amount of dancing around will take away that fact. Every day either the loyalist or republican terrorists walked about their main aim was murder, extortion and general crime. Simples.

They did send warnings to the police and to the Samaritans. Thats a fact.


It wasn't in the PIRA's interest to kill children, so I don't know why you keep claiming that they targetted children.


Who is Jimmy Sands?

jm08

timthumbni wrote: »

That whole post is a bit off actually. I ask where is the so called “United ireland” coming from there.

You and Downcow continually bring up the Warrington bombing where two young boys were killed, but completely ignore the 184 children who were killed in the Troubles. You make excuses for the murder of the three Quinn boys as if their lives are of less value than the two English boys are killed and the rest don't even get a mention, particularly if they were killed by the British Army who won't even admit their part in their deaths and are just dismissed as collatoral damage.


Personally, I don't care whether there is a UI or not. What I want to see is that there is a decent and fair society in Northern Ireland because the last 100 years have been anything but. Unionists support the most regressive party in Europe in NI so are not taking that opportunity they have been given and are just unreformable. All you care about is who is seen as the winner.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

Now why do you have to resort to ridiculing and mocking francie?I've always been grateful for the Irish soldiers who fought in both world wars and some of my relatives who fought and died in ww1 were 1st and 2nd generation Irish descent-.You are in effect ridiculing your own people.

A large proportion of those who fought in WWI did so because they thought they would get Home Rule as promised (Redmond encouraged people to join up). They were fooled.

jm08

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The tit-for-tat nonsense gets us nowhere. One murdered child was too many. Pointing out that one side, 'only' has 80 dead children doesn't paint the positive light you're trying to spin.

Tim & Downcow continually bring up the 2 Warrington boys but never mention the 184 other children who died in the troubles. I wasn't trying to paint any light and I'm sorry you interpreted it that way.


I'm with Fr Denis Faul when he said after the Warrington bombing:

'The woman leading the peace moves in Dublin is very sincere and deserves the height of praise. The sympathy for the Warrington parents is very good and warming and I share it. But this could all have an adverse effect. The politics of the last atrocity is a very bad basis for a peace movement. Next week there could be Catholic children burnt in their beds in Belfast . . . Will there be flowers for them? There have been so many children killed here, wtih plastic bullets and so on, and nobody in Dublin sent flowers. You must have parity of protest, parity of sympathy, parity of compassion. We could have done with some of that sympathy. You can't have a partial peace movement.'

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/the-angry-south-the-weary-north-irish-people-voice-their-feelings-on-the-horrors-of-the-iras-1500451.html

feargale

downcow wrote: »

Read the recent posts feargale. You will find I answered twice as you were not content with the first answer. So kindly withdraw your accusation.

Hands up. You did and I missed it. Apologies, and accusation withdrawn.

In mitigation let me say that you were slow in replying and when I prominently blacked post 3205 it's a pity you didn't at that stage draw my oversight to my attention.

I will respond to 3195 in due course.

Edgware

jm08 wrote: »

A large proportion of those who fought in WWI did so because they thought they would get Home Rule as promised (Redmond encouraged people to join up). They were fooled.

There were thousands of Irish in the British army ever before Redmond encouraged the Volunteers to go. They were in it to have a job, for adventure etc. Ordinary men from all over Britain and Ireland were sent as cannon fodder. Many of the "knowledgeable" lads posting here would have been in the ranks too if alive at that time.

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

There were thousands of Irish in the British army ever before Redmond encouraged the Volunteers to go. They were in it to have a job, for adventure etc. Ordinary men from all over Britain and Ireland were sent as cannon fodder. Many of the "knowledgeable" lads posting here would have been in the ranks too if alive at that time.

Why does that dilute or lessen the point he made?

Redmond massively encouraged men to go - historical fact.

jm08

Edgware wrote: »

There were thousands of Irish in the British army ever before Redmond encouraged the Volunteers to go. They were in it to have a job, for adventure etc. Ordinary men from all over Britain and Ireland were sent as cannon fodder. Many of the "knowledgeable" lads posting here would have been in the ranks too if alive at that time.

I don't think any of them were in it for the adventure. It was a job.



Redmond did encourage recruitment. There was a split in the Irish Volunteers over it (with the majority supporting Redmond).

Edgware

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why does that dilute or lessen the point he made?

Redmond massively encouraged men to go - historical fact.

It makes the point that there were many many Irish in the British army. Redmond was responsible for a certain number joining up. Unless you have the exact figure you cant call
it a large proportion.

BonnieSituation

Edgware wrote: »

It makes the point that there were many many Irish in the British army. Redmond was responsible for a certain number joining up. Unless you have the exact figure you cant call
it a large proportion.

Come off it.

The fact that you're serious is all the more hilarious.

Edgware

jm08 wrote: »

186 children (according to book Children of the Troubles) under the age of 16 were killed during the troubles.


British Army / RUC killed 48 of them (such as 2 year old killed by CS gas thrown into his house, or another child run over by a Saracen Tank, to a child with learning disabilities being shot by the BA when he ran away from British soldiers).


The PIRA always tried to send warnings that bombs were going to go off. Sometimes the British Security forces acted on these warnings, sometimes they did not. In the case of the Warrington bombs, the police said they did not get a warning, whereas the PIRA said they also contacted the Samaritans.



The supposedly normal people in NI (loyalists) killed 50 children.



The abnormal republican groups killed 80 children.


Now, totting up the casualties, that would British State forces 98; Republicans 80.
I think the British State wins the murdering children headcount.

You Sir are clueless

BonnieSituation

Edgware wrote: »

You Sir are clueless

10 days wait for that ad hominem retort. Not worth it.

downcow

feargale wrote: »

Hands up. You did and I missed it. Apologies, and accusation withdrawn.

In mitigation let me say that you were slow in replying and when I prominently blacked post 3205 it's a pity you didn't at that stage draw my oversight to my attention.

I will respond to 3195 in due course.

Just back on this. Thanks feargale. I can’t remember what the issue was but clearly you are a decent bloke worth engaging with.