How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

186 children (according to book Children of the Troubles) under the age of 16 were killed during the troubles.


British Army / RUC killed 48 of them (such as 2 year old killed by CS gas thrown into his house, or another child run over by a Saracen Tank, to a child with learning disabilities being shot by the BA when he ran away from British soldiers).


The PIRA always tried to send warnings that bombs were going to go off. Sometimes the British Security forces acted on these warnings, sometimes they did not. In the case of the Warrington bombs, the police said they did not get a warning, whereas the PIRA said they also contacted the Samaritans.



The supposedly normal people in NI (loyalists) killed 50 children.



The abnormal republican groups killed 80 children.


Now, totting up the casualties, that would British State forces 98; Republicans 80.
I think the British State wins the murdering children headcount.

Pretty disgusting, naive, and bigoted post. You should be ashamed when you reread it, but I guess you won’t be

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Pretty disgusting, naive, and bigoted post. You should be ashamed when you reread it, but I guess you won’t be

Well maybe you could explain why its disgusting, naive and bigoted please so that I will be ashamed when I reread it?

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

Well maybe you could explain why its disgusting, naive and bigoted please so that I will be ashamed when I reread it?

I found your comments about the Warrington bombing particularly nauseating,you blamed the Police and attempted to minimalize the actions of the murderous terrorists-shame on you jm08.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I found your comments about the Warrington bombing particularly nauseating,you blamed the Police and attempted to minimalize the actions of the murderous terrorists-shame on you jm08.

The sickening thing is that after a 30+ year conflict/war that we are still remembering selected victims, i.e. we are using victims for whatever political slant we have. Happens here on a nauseatingly regular basis. There is a 'list' of selected victims to be picked from.

Another 12 year old boy died the day the boys in Warrington died, but nobody ever mentions him. You have to ask why, over 20 years after the conflict/war ended?

*You'll have to google him, no doubt, and that is to your shame.

Brendan Bendar

Pontius Pilate himself would be proud of that ‘ablutiorem digitorum’

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The sickening thing is that after a 30+ year conflict/war that we are still remembering selected victims, i.e. we are using victims for whatever political slant we have. Happens here on a nauseatingly regular basis. There is a 'list' of selected victims to be picked from.

Another 12 year old boy died the day the boys in Warrington died, but nobody ever mentions him. You have to ask why, over 20 years after the conflict/war ended?

*You'll have to google him, no doubt, and that is to your shame.

All fatalities during the troubles are a tragedy.I singled the Warrington bombing out as jm08 tried to shift blame from the murderous terrorists to the police which is what I found nauseating,the same thing happened over the recent tragedy in Derry which then resulted in murderous terrorists trying to blame the police for being there.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

All fatalities during the troubles are a tragedy.I singled the Warrington bombing out as jm08 tried to shift blame from the murderous terrorists to the police which is what I found nauseating,the same thing happened over the recent tragedy in Derry which then resulted in murderous terrorists trying to blame the police for being there.

All players in the conflict/war have their share of the blame. If the police are lying about warnings that would just show again that they were players.

Nobody is trying to 'shift' blame. When you send soldiers out on urban streets mandated and armed with lethal weapons and people die then blame attaches.
Same as if you explode bombs in urban places then blame attaches if innocents die.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

All players in the conflict/war have their share of the blame. If the police are lying about warnings that would just show again that they were players.

Nobody is trying to 'shift' blame. When you send soldiers out on urban streets mandated and armed with lethal weapons and people die then blame attaches.
Same as if you explode bombs in urban places then blame attaches if innocents die.

What blame can you put on Lyra McKee, Francie?

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

All players in the conflict/war have their share of the blame. If the police are lying about warnings that would just show again that they were players.

Nobody is trying to 'shift' blame. When you send soldiers out on urban streets mandated and armed with lethal weapons and people die then blame attaches.
Same as if you explode bombs in urban places then blame attaches if innocents die.

We've gone over this on numerous occasions francie,how you can compare legitimate state representatives to terrorists is the sticking point. I'd acknowledge you may see IRA operatives as soldiers but how can you justify planting bombs outside a McDonald's and argos in a busy shopping centre and portray them as 'brave freedom fighters '?Its the same as the people responsible for the recent tragic events in Derry trying to blame the PSNI.These actions cause revulsion in any sane person,regardless of religion.I actually agree with a fair bit of your view of things but your insistence of trying to defend the indefensible is your achilles heel.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

I found your comments about the Warrington bombing particularly nauseating,you blamed the Police and attempted to minimalize the actions of the murderous terrorists-shame on you jm08.

We found your comments about Bloody Sunday in Croke Park nauseating. You blamed the crowd, and attempted to minimise the actions of the British authorities cum terrorists. Shame on you RobMc59.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

We've gone over this on numerous occasions francie,how you can compare legitimate state representatives to terrorists is the sticking point. I'd acknowledge you may see IRA operatives as soldiers but how can you justify planting bombs outside a McDonald's and argos in a busy shopping centre and portray them as 'brave freedom fighters '?Its the same as the people responsible for the recent tragic events in Derry trying to blame the PSNI.These actions cause revulsion in any sane person,regardless of religion.I actually agree with a fair bit of your view of things but your insistence of trying to defend the indefensible is your achilles heel.

You can't compare them Rob. For the State authorities to attack the citizenry is way worse as their first and foremost role is one of protection of the people.

Your problem is though, that you don't think Nationalists are worthy of that protection. So don't you dare come in here bleating with your faux-outrage over the comments on Warrington. Any reasonable reader would be able to understand the point being made. You just happen to be so biased that you can't see through your rage. Pathetic.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

What blame can you put on Lyra McKee, Francie?

You seriously think I am 'blaming' innocent victims mark...wow you are desperate to find an angle aren't you.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

We've gone over this on numerous occasions francie,how you can compare legitimate state representatives to terrorists is the sticking point. I'd acknowledge you may see IRA operatives as soldiers but how can you justify planting bombs outside a McDonald's and argos in a busy shopping centre and portray them as 'brave freedom fighters '?Its the same as the people responsible for the recent tragic events in Derry trying to blame the PSNI.These actions cause revulsion in any sane person,regardless of religion.I actually agree with a fair bit of your view of things but your insistence of trying to defend the indefensible is your achilles heel.

Without going past the first sentence and getting into it again...I and nationalists did not see them as 'legitimate'. They were the 'terrorists' to us along with loyalists. And the body count of innocents on their side bears that out.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You seriously think I am 'blaming' innocent victims mark...wow you are desperate to find an angle aren't you.

You are on record blaming partition alone for the murder of Lyra McKee, not the New IRA.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Without going past the first sentence and getting into it again...I and nationalists did not see them as 'legitimate'. They were the 'terrorists' to us along with loyalists. And the body count of innocents on their side bears that out.

Francie,I'm from the UK and want to be defended by the police and armed forces from those I and my fellow like minded UK citizens (wherever they may live in the UK)view as terrorists.I wouldn't expect to have a say in how things are run in Ireland-neither should you.
And this bit isn't aimed at you francie,its aimed at 'billy no mates'.Don't you ever critise someone who is nauseated by 'brave freedom fighters 'planting bombs in a busy shopping precinct then trying to blame the police when children are killed.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

I found your comments about the Warrington bombing particularly nauseating,you blamed the Police and attempted to minimalize the actions of the murderous terrorists-shame on you jm08.

What I pointed out is that it wasn't in the interests of the PIRA to kill children (and it certainly wasn't in the Warrington Bombing).

No one trusted the police, least of all the PIRA. Thats why they phoned warnings to Police and Samaritans because sometimes the police didn't act on the warnings.

You may claim that the UK police and security forces are above reproach. That has not been the experience of Irish people. For example, what happened to the Guildford Four and Bermingham Six. Then you have the refusal of the British State to be open about the Dublin & Monaghan Bombings. The reason they won't do that is that the British State is up to their neck in it.

I also quoted Fr. Denis Faul on the Warrington Boys which demonstrates exactly what I think (which includes that all these deaths should have been avoided).

'THE IRA did not kill Johnathan Ball in my name or in your name. I want to tell the world tonight they did not kill him in the name of Ireland. There's nothing wrong with being emotional about a little baby's death. I feel horror, revulsion and sadness. But that's not enough. Tonight I feel anger.


'I feel angry and frustrated because the political will is not there to end the violence. We've listened too long to rhetoric with no results. Sincere people will say everything has been tried. Maybe it's time it was looked at from a different angle. Maybe it's time we asked for UN troops and independent arbitrators from Europe or the outside world.'

Susan McHugh, Irish mother who organised last week's rally against the IRA and today's peace rally in Dublin.


'The woman leading the peace moves in Dublin is very sincere and deserves the height of praise. The sympathy for the Warrington parents is very good and warming and I share it. But this could all have an adverse effect. The politics of the last atrocity is a very bad basis for a peace movement. Next week there could be Catholic children burnt in their beds in Belfast . . . Will there be flowers for them? There have been so many children killed here, wtih plastic bullets and so on, and nobody in Dublin sent flowers. You must have parity of protest, parity of sympathy, parity of compassion. We could have done with some of that sympathy. You can't have a partial peace movement.'

Fr Denis Faul, Tyrone priest and IRA critic.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/the-angry-south-the-weary-north-irish-people-voice-their-feelings-on-the-horrors-of-the-iras-1500451.html

markodaly

jm08 wrote: »

No one trusted the police, least of all the PIRA. Thats why they phoned warnings to Police and Samaritans because sometimes the police didn't act on the warnings.

Do you have any actual evidence to this fact, or is that a nice convenient line to try and get someone else apart from the PIRA to shoulder the blame when innocent people were murdered?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

You are on record blaming partition alone for the murder of Lyra McKee, not the New IRA.

Even of that trite nonsense were true it is STILL NOT blaming the innocent victim.

If you are not interested in discussing the 'causes' of a conflict/war maybe start a discussion on vigilantism?

Every conflict and war in the hostory of the planet had a cause and would not have taken place if certain things had not happened. Unless you want to posit yet another bizarre theory 'that nationalist Irish people are inherently disposed to violence without cause'.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Even of that trite nonsense were true

Oh, its true alright.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No.
The harsh reality here is as it has always been. There will be no peace in Ireland until we deal with partition.

Classic victim-blaming exhibit (a)

I asked you a simple question about Lyra McKee and you want to have a philosophical discussion about conflicts and war. Whataboutery at its finest.
I guess the PSNI are really to blame anyway for her murder. :rolleyes:

jm08

markodaly wrote: »

Do you have any actual evidence to this fact, or is that a nice convenient line to try and get someone else apart from the PIRA to shoulder the blame when innocent people were murdered?

Self evident. Why would the PIRA phone the Samaritans as well as the Police?


There were issues also with the Omagh Bombing how the RUC had been informed a couple of days previous to it by one of their IRA informers.

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

What I pointed out is that it wasn't in the interests of the PIRA to kill children (and it certainly wasn't in the Warrington Bombing).

No one trusted the police, least of all the PIRA. Thats why they phoned warnings to Police and Samaritans because sometimes the police didn't act on the warnings.

You may claim that the UK police and security forces are above reproach. That has not been the experience of Irish people. For example, what happened to the Guildford Four and Bermingham Six. Then you have the refusal of the British State to be open about the Dublin & Monaghan Bombings. The reason they won't do that is that the British State is up to their neck in it.

I also quoted Fr. Denis Faul on the Warrington Boys which demonstrates exactly what I think (which includes that all these deaths should have been avoided).


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/the-angry-south-the-weary-north-irish-people-voice-their-feelings-on-the-horrors-of-the-iras-1500451.html

If you plant bombs to detonate in a shopping centre on a Saturday afternoon who do you think will be the casualties?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Oh, its true alright.



Classic victim-blaming exhibit (a)

I asked you a simple question about Lyra McKee and you want to have a philosophical discussion about conflicts and war. Whataboutery at its finest.
I guess the PSNI are really to blame anyway for her murder. :rolleyes:

That is not victim blaming and that is not excusing violence. Time to start debating like an adult mark.

So how do you propose to end killings like Lyra McKee's and the other 158* since the GFA?

*We know you are only interested in selective victims.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

If you plant bombs to detonate in a shopping centre on a Saturday afternoon who do you think will be the casualties?

If the police take the warnings seriously so that they clear the area, just buildings & businesses should be destroyed.

markodaly

jm08 wrote: »

Self evident. Why would the PIRA phone the Samaritans as well as the Police?

So you have no evidence of your claim?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is not victim blaming and that is not excusing violence. Time to start debating like an adult mark.

It actually is.
It's akin to blaming women wearing short skirts for being raped.

No skirt, no rape
No partition, no murder

Same logic.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

It actually is.
It's akin to blaming women wearing short skirts for being raped.

No skirt, no rape
No partition, no murder

Same logic.

None of the 3000+ people would have died had partition not happened mark.
Is it your theory they would have died, ia your thing that nationalists woukd have killed just because?
What is your theory...all ears for it.

Millions wouldn't have died in World Wars had certain things not happened. That does not absolve anyone for killings during those wars.

BonnieSituation

markodaly wrote: »

You are on record blaming partition alone for the murder of Lyra McKee, not the New IRA.

No he's not. You know that and yet you keep peddling that nonsense across multiple threads.

Your obsession with Francie and SF is pretty weird at this stage.

We geddit. You're a unionist apologist and Partitionist. When the time comes you can campaign against reunification as is your wont. Try learning to be confident and comfortable in your own skin. You'll have an easier time of it.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Francie,I'm from the UK and want to be defended by the police and armed forces from those I and my fellow like minded UK citizens (wherever they may live in the UK)view as terrorists.I wouldn't expect to have a say in how things are run in Ireland-neither should you.
And this bit isn't aimed at you francie,its aimed at 'billy no mates'.Don't you ever critise someone who is nauseated by 'brave freedom fighters 'planting bombs in a busy shopping precinct then trying to blame the police when children are killed.

Wait, so if you're a UK citizen you have to be "like-minded" ie. Unionist in order to avail of the safeguards of the state?

I mean, you and Downcow are very quick to tell us that everyone in the north is British, and now you're telling us that Nationalists aren't quite British enough to warrant the protections of the state.

Are you sure there Rob?

BonnieSituation

markodaly wrote: »

Do you have any actual evidence to this fact, or is that a nice convenient line to try and get someone else apart from the PIRA to shoulder the blame when innocent people were murdered?

Really?

This is where you're landing on this one. Dig up Mark.

Why do you apply such unreasonable evidentiary standards to those you disagree with? You'd have a better time if you debated in good faith tbh. You might even learn something about Themmuns.

jm08

markodaly wrote: »

So you have no evidence of your claim?

Actually there is. There was a bit of a problem with the Omagh bombing as far as I can recall. Seemingly the police were warned and it was investigated.



Now, can you explain to me why the PIRA would contact both Police and Samaritans?