How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

Actually there is. There was a bit of a problem with the Omagh bombing as far as I can recall. Seemingly the police were warned and it was investigated.



Now, can you explain to me why the PIRA would contact both Police and Samaritans?

Can you explain how that limp,vague comment is evidence of anything?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

None of the 3000+ people would have died had partition not happened mark.

That is a foolish, idiotic and one dimentional way of looking at it.

"If only the Unionists, thought like we do, and agree with everything we do, then the PIRA would not have had to kill and murder thousands of people"
You sound like a cartoon villain out of a Marvel Movie.

Is it your theory they would have died, ia your thing that nationalists woukd have killed just because?

First and foremost, the PIRA killed about 2/3's of the people who died in the troubles. They even killed more Catholics and Nationalists then the British Security forces. Yet, its partitions fault....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Millions wouldn't have died in World Wars had certain things not happened. That does not absolve anyone for killings during those wars.

And..... here comes the whataboutery.
Sure, why not going back to the Battle of Boyne, if only William of Orange was defeated.... peace and utopia in Ireland.
Or why not just go back further, if the Norman invasion of Ireland was stopped.
Or why not go back to the Vikings....

Yes, its a foolish way to play the game.

At the end of the day, you blame a line on a map for the murder of innocent people, not the actual perpetrators of these murders and killings.

markodaly

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why do you apply such unreasonable evidentiary standards to those you disagree with?

Unreasoanble?

The poster in question made a serious allegation about police ignoring warnings.
I just asked for proof or evidence of that claim and none was forthcoming.

If one cannot prove something, then perhaps they best STFU about it.

markodaly

jm08 wrote: »

Actually there is. There was a bit of a problem with the Omagh bombing as far as I can recall. Seemingly the police were warned and it was investigated.

And what did this investigation conclude?
Did they come to the conclusion that the police deliberately ignored the warning?

Or are you trying to muddy the waters, trying to shift blame from the IRA murderers and killers who planted bombs in civilian areas?

Brendan Bendar

markodaly wrote: »

And what did this investigation conclude?
Did they come to the conclusion that the police deliberately ignored the warning?

Or are you trying to muddy the waters, trying to shift blame from the IRA murderers and killers who planted bombs in civilian areas?

Of course the poster is trying that, Mark.

SF tactic # 303hv.

Yeah_Right

markodaly wrote: »

That is a foolish, idiotic and one dimentional way of looking at it.

"If only the Unionists, thought like we do, and agree with everything we do, then the PIRA would not have had to kill and murder thousands of people"
You sound like a cartoon villain out of a Marvel Movie.




First and foremost, the PIRA killed about 2/3's of the people who died in the troubles. They even killed more Catholics and Nationalists then the British Security forces. Yet, its partitions fault....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:



And..... here comes the whataboutery.
Sure, why not going back to the Battle of Boyne, if only William of Orange was defeated.... peace and utopia in Ireland.
Or why not just go back further, if the Norman invasion of Ireland was stopped.
Or why not go back to the Vikings....

Yes, its a foolish way to play the game.

At the end of the day, you blame a line on a map for the murder of innocent people, not the actual perpetrators of these murders and killings.

Personally I blame Cromwell. He didn't finish the job

BonnieSituation

markodaly wrote: »

Unreasoanble?

The poster in question made a serious allegation about police ignoring warnings.
I just asked for proof or evidence of that claim and none was forthcoming.

If one cannot prove something, then perhaps they best STFU about it.

That's all a wee bit Helen Lovejoy-esque now tbf Mark. Are you that affronted by the idea that the RUC/PSNI might not have taken some warnings as seriously as they ought to have? Is the concept so alien that you need to place your finger in the wounds?

Honestly, given you are someone who cannot draw the line from Partition all the way to the Troubles and the death and destruction it caused, then I guess it's not surprising that you can't comprehend something like police inaction, malevolence or incompetence in this matter.

What sort of evidentiary bar would you have, say for Loyalist and British State collusion into Dublin and Monaghan?

---

If I were you I'd probably take your own advice at this stage.

Edgware

Just after finishing a two week job on the Upper Newtownards rd. Anyone who thinks that there is any great cross community wish to live in peace and move towards a United Ireland is not living in the real world. British they are and British they will remain. Dream on about Scottish independence, Brexit etc.

Brendan Bendar

Edgware wrote: »

Just after finishing a two week job on the Upper Newtownards rd. Anyone who thinks that there is any great cross community wish to live in peace and move towards a United Ireland is not living in the real world. British they are and British they will remain. Dream on about Scottish independence, Brexit etc.

Only empty headed idealists see it any differently, a chara.

Driven idiots who want anything to do with those bunch of stults.

Four Green Fields idiots.

Junkyard Tom

Edgware wrote: »

Anyone who thinks that there is any great cross community wish to live in peace and move towards a United Ireland is not living in the real world.

Anyone who thinks Unionist consent is needed for a United Ireland is not living in this Century.

BonnieSituation

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Only empty headed idealists see it any differently, a chara.

Driven idiots who want anything to do with those bunch of stults.

Four Green Fields idiots.

Then you should campaign against a UI and vote "no" when the time comes. That's your only job.

Your constant whining in here along with your Partitionist friends' is an odd way to spend your time, especially seeing as you have no interest in a UI at all, apparently.

BonnieSituation

Edgware wrote: »

Just after finishing a two week job on the Upper Newtownards rd. Anyone who thinks that there is any great cross community wish to live in peace and move towards a United Ireland is not living in the real world. British they are and British they will remain. Dream on about Scottish independence, Brexit etc.

Meh.

A United Ireland is never gonna be attractive to those people. It never has been. It never will be. Were you expecting it to be different in 2020? That's why they're not worth the effort in trying to woo them.

You know the threshold is 50%+1, right? They're not part of the conversation and they don't want to be part of the conversation. Their loss.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

Can you explain how that limp,vague comment is evidence of anything?

Omagh bombing ‘could have been prevented’, says former police ombudsman

Relatives marking 20 years since the August 1998 dissident republican blast


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/omagh-bombing-could-have-been-prevented-says-former-police-ombudsman-1.3596968

Intelligence on Real IRA Omagh bomb was 'withheld from police'


THE RUC SPECIAL Branch withheld information from officers investigating the Omagh Bomb, according to a report from the Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman. The report found however that there was no intelligence available to police which, if acted upon, could have prevented the attack.


https://www.thejournal.ie/omagh-bomb-investigation-1752784-Oct2014/


And Bermingham bombings:

There is reason to believe the gang of murderers had an informant in their ranks and that the police knew in advance. “And there is reason to believe the police had sufficient time, between the telephone warnings and the first bomb going off, to evacuate – and that the emergency services could have arrived earlier – but that records about those things were falsified.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/police-may-have-been-tipped-off-about-birmingham-bombings-1.2529263


Of course that will never be investigated because it implicates the British State in the murder of its own citizens.

From what I recall from the Warrington Bombings, seemingly the British police had no system of dealing efficiently with these calls. I remember one of the police who testified in the enquiry said something like that ''they were lackadaisical' when they got them.

jm08

markodaly wrote: »

And what did this investigation conclude?
Did they come to the conclusion that the police deliberately ignored the warning?

Or are you trying to muddy the waters, trying to shift blame from the IRA murderers and killers who planted bombs in civilian areas?

See post above with brief conclusions. You can look up the Ombudsman report if you are so inclined.


https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/police/ombudsman/po121201omagh1.pdf

markodaly

jm08 wrote: »

THE RUC SPECIAL Branch withheld information from officers investigating the Omagh Bomb, according to a report from the Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman. The report found however that there was no intelligence available to police which, if acted upon, could have prevented the attack.

So again, no evidence of your claim.
It seems to be a habit. Make a big claim and then try and scramble and scour the web to try and make your claim true, even though as we can see its not and not even relevant to the original claim

Of course that will never be investigated because it implicates the British State in the murder of its own citizens.

Yet, there was an investigation into all these bombings you mention.

markodaly

BonnieSituation wrote: »

That's all a wee bit Helen Lovejoy-esque now tbf Mark. Are you that affronted by the idea that the RUC/PSNI might not have taken some warnings as seriously as they ought to have? Is the concept so alien that you need to place your finger in the wounds?

Im not affronted by anything but the lack of evidence from you and others to such a bold claim.

The claim was:

No one trusted the police, least of all the PIRA. Thats why they phoned warnings to Police and Samaritans because sometimes the police didn't act on the warnings.

Now, where is the evidence of this exact claim?
What exact incidents are we talking about here and where is the evidence to suggest that this claim is true?

If you don't have any proof or evidence, then perhaps you best be quiet and realise that the only people responsible for the murder of people who plant bombs are the people who planted them, like the PIRA.

markodaly

jm08 wrote: »

See post above with brief conclusions. You can look up the Ombudsman report if you are so inclined.


https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/police/ombudsman/po121201omagh1.pdf

From the very first page of the report.

The persons responsible for the Omagh bombing are the terrorists who
planned and executed the atrocity. Nothing contained in this report should
detract from that clear and unequivocal fact

Pretty clear cut to me who was responsible for the Omagh bombings.

Now, do you have anything else to back up your original claim, or do you now realise you were talking out of your hat?

jm08

markodaly wrote: »

From the very first page of the report.



Pretty clear cut to me who was responsible for the Omag bombings.

Now, do you have anything else to back up your original claim, or do you now realise you were talking out of your hat?

I think that maybe you should read the entire report :rolleyes:

BonnieSituation

markodaly wrote: »

Im not affronted by anything but the lack of evidence from you and others to such a bold claim.

The claim was:


Now, where is the evidence of this exact claim?
What exact incidents are we talking about here and where is the evidence to suggest that this claim is true?

If you don't have any proof or evidence, then perhaps you best be quiet and realise that the only people responsible for the murder of people who plant bombs are the people who planted them, like the PIRA.

Yes Mark. Everything stinks.

markodaly

jm08 wrote: »

I think that maybe you should read the entire report :rolleyes:

I scanned through it and there is nothing there that substantaies your claim,
By all means quote me the relevant part which sates where the police deliberately didn't act on a warning.

markodaly

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Yes Mark. Everything stinks.

What kind of banal comment is that?

Clearly you too have an issue with the truth. You cannot find me any proof or evidence of the claim put forward, but you are willing to believe something regardless.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

See post above with brief conclusions. You can look up the Ombudsman report if you are so inclined.

Do you believe the police should not have operated informants? That seems to be what you are suggesting.

BonnieSituation

markodaly wrote: »

What kind of banal comment is that?

Clearly you too have an issue with the truth. You cannot find me any proof or evidence of the claim put forward, but you are willing to believe something regardless.

I've an issue with you and your needlessly aggressive posting style. Banal it may be, but that's the sort of response you should get at every turn imo.

Rather than poo-pooing everything that's put forth to you, perhaps you could tell us what you'd accept as evidence, because I'd wager that if Ronnie Flanagan himself told you that there were missteps or ignorance in dealing with warnings, that you'd probably disbelieve him too.

And less of the tone. I don't know where you think you are, but the constant ad hominem attacks on posters are a bit ridiculous. This is the internet, your opinion (like everyone else's) isn't all that important in the grand scheme.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Meh.

A United Ireland is never gonna be attractive to those people. It never has been. It never will be. Were you expecting it to be different in 2020? That's why they're not worth the effort in trying to woo them.

You know the threshold is 50%+1, right? They're not part of the conversation and they don't want to be part of the conversation. Their loss.

This is what will be fascinating about a border poll. Our partitionists and these people on the same side. Comfortable or uncomfortable bedfellows?

jm08

markodaly wrote: »

I scanned through it and there is nothing there that substantaies your claim,
By all means quote me the relevant part which sates where the police deliberately didn't act on a warning.

Just read the full report.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Do you believe the police should not have operated informants? That seems to be what you are suggesting.

I don't where you got that idea that the police should not have operated informants. Since they had informants they should have listened to them and acted on the information they were given.


This didn't happen in either Bermingham or Omagh.

markodaly

jm08 wrote: »

Just read the full report.

Again, show me the proof of your claim. If it's in the report, quite the paragraph, please.

Otherwise, stop lying and promoting Republican conspiracy theories.

markodaly

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I've an issue with you and your needlessly aggressive posting style. Banal it may be, but that's the sort of response you should get at every turn imo.

All I did was ask for someone to prove their allegation. Simple really.
They did not.
You have not.
No one has....

Therefore, its a false allegation designed to muddy the waters.
If you don't like lies being called, then perhaps stop backing lies and making up $hite.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

I don't where you got that idea that the police should not have operated informants. Since they had informants they should have listened to them and acted on the information they were given.


This didn't happen in either Bermingham or Omagh.

Running informants is a little more complex than you suggest.
I think your informants would have fairly quickly be found with a plastic bag over their heads in south Armagh.

downcow

markodaly wrote: »

All I did was ask for someone to prove their allegation. Simple really.
They did not.
You have not.
No one has....

Therefore, its a false allegation designed to muddy the waters.
If you don't like lies being called, then perhaps stop backing lies and making up $hite.

Spot on. And clear for us all to see