How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

mehico

jh79 wrote: »

A whole Island approach has the potential to be beneficial under the correct circumstances ie proper funding. A badly manages UI has the potential to ruin a 32 county economy too.

Yes, certainly there is economic opportunity to be explored for sure. This is one of the strands of the unit to be set up by the incoming government if the formation talks succeed of course.

jm08

BloodyBill wrote: »

If the majority of Protestants in Northern Ireland voted for unification, I'd vote yes. Until then I'd vote no.
I think the real interesting idea is the Northern Ireland striking out on it's own and leaving the baggage all behind. I think that's the way it ll eventually go,probably end up in the EU like similar sized countries like Montenegro and Estonia.

How are you going to know how to vote since both referenda will take place on the same day.


Northern Ireland was out on its own for 50 years and look how that was ended! Seriously, that will never happen.

Randy Archer

jm08 wrote: »

How are you going to know how to vote since both referenda will take place on the same day.


Northern Ireland was out on its own for 50 years and look how that was ended! Seriously, that will never happen.

Why do you assume that both referenda would take place on the same day.? There’s nothing to support that (nor anything to dismiss it either )

At no stage was the State of Northern Ireland “out on its own”

Yeah_Right

BonnieSituation wrote: »

How did you work that out?

He's valuing Protestant votes over Catholic votes. That's profoundly undemocratic.

I'm not denying his right to do so. But I'm challenging him on his statement. He can do what he wants with his vote.

You might need to read my post again and maybe quoting the whole thing would help clarity for those reading after you.

The poster said how they would vote and explained something that would influence how they vote. You called them anti-democratic because they were going to vote against what you wanted. You said they were anti-democratic for exercising their democratic rights. The stupidity in such a statement is hilarious. I suppose it does explain how SF fans think that they have a majority in the Dail, they don't actually understand what democracy is.

Randy Archer

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mehico wrote: »

That's fair but I think there are possible economic benefits to a single island economy if it were to happen.

Such as ? Why would people in Galway, Kerry, Cork or Waterford give a **** ? Cities like Limerick would be further neglected as serious investment would be required for a **** hole like Derry

Randy Archer

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What?

So if the North vote yes you'd still potentially vote no based on the demographic makeup of that yes vote. So an anti-democratic Partitionist is in our midst!

So is a Protestant vote worth more than a Catholic vote?

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Who is it interesting for that NI be independent bar Partitionists like yourself who don't agree with democracy?

No one at all wants an independent NI. Why would Nationalists want to be part of something like that?

Is 100 years of being othered by your neighbours not enough, now you're giving up your aspiration for a UI to satisfy the likes of jh79 and BloodyBill?

Yeah, I digress, it's not part of the GFA. So it ain't happening.

Eh, the Unionists, mostly whom are Prods, are the Majority in The North

The level of stupidity in that argument is almost breath taking but not a surprise

You clearly struggle with the concept of democracy .

Randy Archer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The partitionist mantra - 'I'm alright jack, to hell with the rest of you'.

Thankfully for many the jingle in their pockets wasn't enough. Because of them you have the prosperity to make your selfish decisions.

Nope, both communities up there are as bad as each other . Sectarian scum. We don’t want that baggage, it took us decades to get rid of civil war bitterness . Moreover, for those who contribute to society ie pay substantial taxes and employ people and those in high end jobs, things Shinners know sfa about, we don’t want our economy screwed up even more . Nor are we going to tolerate either Unionists or Nordie Republicans (some of whom were the enemy of our state and refused to recognise it and shot our frontline workers not too long ago) dictating to us

For all the talk coming from Shinners about this so called prospect of a better Economy under a UI, and despite decades in the EEC/EU and over 20 years of relative peace, none of ye can seriously offer real examples to back it up

FrancieBrady

Randy Archer wrote: »

Why do you assume that both referenda would take place on the same day.? There’s nothing to support that (nor anything to dismiss it either )

At no stage was the State of Northern Ireland “out on its own”

Doesn't make any sense to do it any other way.

If the North votes No, any subsequent referendum is moot here and vice versa.

Same as the GFA, it will be the same day.

Randy Archer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Doesn't make any sense to do it any other way.

If the North votes No, any subsequent referendum is moot here and vice versa.

Same as the GFA, it will be the same day.

It makes perfect sense that the referendums are held on different days.

Let the North vote first, if they say no, then there is absolutely no need for the South to go through the expense of holding a referendum as it would be moot and pointless . Nothing is going to happy with pout a decent majority in the north; would would assume that a vote in the South would pass

But then, Shinners know all about costing the state money on needless elections eg The last Presidential election

FrancieBrady

Randy Archer wrote: »

Nope, both communities up there are as bad as each other . Sectarian scum. We don’t want that baggage

Maybe when the majority of people express a wish that we be a UI, they are saying they want the likes of you to be silent Randy? Ever think of it like that?

I sincerely hope the likes of you are around come a border poll and vocalise those generalisations because any decent person listening to you would vote the opposite way to you.
Peter Casey like flaming.

FrancieBrady

Randy Archer wrote: »

It makes perfect sense that the referendums are held on different days.

Let the North vote first, if they say no, then there is absolutely no need for the South to go through the expense of holding a referendum as it would be moot and pointless . Nothing is going to happy with pout a decent majority in the north; would would assume that a vote in the South would pass

But then, Shinners know all about costing the state money on needless elections eg The last Presidential election

Yeh Randy...it wouldn't cost anything to cancel a referendum with a few days to go.

Then the prolonged courtroom cases where campaigners would challenge the result because people's minds were changed when they seen how the vote went in the north.

Your idea doesn't stack up after even two minutes thought.

jm08

Randy Archer wrote: »

Why do you assume that both referenda would take place on the same day.? There’s nothing to support that (nor anything to dismiss it either )

At no stage was the State of Northern Ireland “out on its own”

The Stormont Government of 1921-1972 had a Cabinet with a Prime Minister who reported to the King/Queens representative in Northern Ireland (Governor), a similar relationship that the UK PM & Westminister Parliament had to the Queen. The Government of NI reported to the Stormont Parliament and not the Westminister Parliament.


I assume they will take place on the same day because that is what was decided for the GFA referenda.

mehico

Randy Archer wrote: »

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Such as ? Why would people in Galway, Kerry, Cork or Waterford give a **** ? Cities like Limerick would be further neglected as serious investment would be required for a **** hole like Derry

Such as a single all island economy as opposed to two small competing economies. As an example, this could potentially lead to increased FDI into NI due to a common corporation tax regime. This in turn would increase productivity and result in increased government tax revenue. Obviously this is at a macro economic level but it demonstrates opportunity.

I'm not from Derry by the way but would take exception to your remark about the city. Incidentally Derry City and Strabane District Council and their counterparts in Donegal County Council are already working closely together and attempting to develop the regional economy to benefit people living in the region.

eire4

Randy Archer wrote: »

Nope, both communities up there are as bad as each other . Sectarian scum. We don’t want that baggage, it took us decades to get rid of civil war bitterness . Moreover, for those who contribute to society ie pay substantial taxes and employ people and those in high end jobs, things Shinners know sfa about, we don’t want our economy screwed up even more . Nor are we going to tolerate either Unionists or Nordie Republicans (some of whom were the enemy of our state and refused to recognise it and shot our frontline workers not too long ago) dictating to us

For all the talk coming from Shinners about this so called prospect of a better Economy under a UI, and despite decades in the EEC/EU and over 20 years of relative peace, none of ye can seriously offer real examples to back it up

Clearly you have the opinion you do and that is your right but less use of the "we" you do not speak for me certainly when it comes to wanting to see Ireland reunified which I do.

jm08

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The poster said how they would vote and explained something that would influence how they vote. You called them anti-democratic because they were going to vote against what you wanted. You said they were anti-democratic for exercising their democratic rights. The stupidity in such a statement is hilarious. I suppose it does explain how SF fans think that they have a majority in the Dail, they don't actually understand what democracy is.

It would be impossible for everyone in NI to vote for a UI anyway. Secondly, how do you know what protestants voted for in a secret ballot. They, more than like won't tell you how they voted, particularly if they voted in what some would consider, against their community. Similarly for catholics - some may vote to remain in the UK in a secret ballot, but would say they voted differently to their own community.

BonnieSituation

jm08 wrote: »

How are you going to know how to vote since both referenda will take place on the same day.

That's not the case. It also makes no sense to do so.

But either way this is merely another excuse in his armour to not vote yes. That's all that post was about.

Northern Ireland was out on its own for 50 years and look how that was ended! Seriously, that will never happen.

We need to stop engaging with this independent NI talk. It's nonsense.

Best to just ignore it.

It's merely a tool for Partitionists to excuse their "I'm alright jack" attitude.

jm08

Randy Archer wrote: »

Such as ? Why would people in Galway, Kerry, Cork or Waterford give a **** ? Cities like Limerick would be further neglected as serious investment would be required for a **** hole like Derry

Well, Limerick is doing fine on investment. Q1-2018 - unemployment was 5.2%, lower than the national average of 5.7%. That was down from 19.5% in 2012.

Just shows what can be done when people put their mind to it. It helps that Limerick has a university because it has been able to attract all sorts of industry there such as leading biotech companies like Regernon to replace Dell.

All these medical companies need highly skilled people to work for them.

Yeah_Right

jm08 wrote: »

It would be impossible for everyone in NI to vote for a UI anyway. Secondly, how do you know what protestants voted for in a secret ballot. They, more than like won't tell you how they voted, particularly if they voted in what some would consider, against their community. Similarly for catholics - some may vote to remain in the UK in a secret ballot, but would say they voted differently to their own community.

I don't understand why you quoted me for that post. Never made any comment knowing how protestants or catholics voted The only way anyone would no that info would be through exit polls.



Anyway, I think the referendums would have to be held on different days. What is the point in Ireland having a referendum if NI had voted against unifying? What is Ireland going to do if the majority vote to unify? Invade?

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I don't understand why you quoted me for that post. Never made any comment knowing how protestants or catholics voted The only way anyone would no that info would be through exit polls.



Anyway, I think the referendums would have to be held on different days. What is the point in Ireland having a referendum if NI had voted against unifying? What is Ireland going to do if the majority vote to unify? Invade?

Technically there is no onus on us in the south to have a ref. in the GFA.
That's because constitutionally we have already said we 'aspire' to it.

jm08

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I don't understand why you quoted me for that post. Never made any comment knowing how protestants or catholics voted The only way anyone would no that info would be through exit polls.


Anyway, I think the referendums would have to be held on different days. What is the point in Ireland having a referendum if NI had voted against unifying? What is Ireland going to do if the majority vote to unify? Invade?

And the point I'm making is that people in NI won't tell you how they voted, particularly if it challenges their own community. Catholic will vote to remain in the UK and protestants will vote for a UI, but they won't tell anyone how they voted.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Technically there is no onus on us in the south to have a ref. in the GFA.
That's because constitutionally we have already said we 'aspire' to it.

I didn't believe you at first but i think you're kinda right.

"the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island"

Could possibly be interpreted as the government of the day having an implied mandate to legislate for it. But could be open to legal challenges. Won't happen that way.

BonnieSituation

jh79 wrote: »

It's a stupid term but SF easily fit its definition.

In Ireland, partitionism (Irish: críochdheighiltíocht) refers to views on Irish politics, culture, geography, or history that treat Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland as distinct.

Why is it stupid?

You've defined it there. Well done.

Take the recent attempt to add an amendment to the NI abortion bill completely at odds to policy in the Republic.

And a lazy link to an journal article here;

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/sinn-fein-split-in-party-policy-549683-Aug2012/

It was really lazy. 8 years ago is recent now is it?

Tell me about their current attitude to abortion in NI now that it's legal, as it is in the South?

Remember how the POC was used by the DUP to block abortion being implemented as it was in the rest of the UK? I mean, that sounds like they wanted to be different to the UK. Hardly a unionist approach was it?

I'm sure you'll defend that in a mealy mouthed way to detract from Nationalist aspirations somehow.

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And, you'd think it wouldn't need to be said at this point, but Sinn Féin don't own reunification. I don't know why you're obsessed with throwing them into every argument.

BonnieSituation

Randy Archer wrote: »

Why do you assume that both referenda would take place on the same day.? There’s nothing to support that (nor anything to dismiss it either )

Very aggressive ré entry into the thread there Randy. But you're very much correct and i agree with you.

There's no sense to concurrent referenda.

At no stage was the State of Northern Ireland “out on its own”

Really? The UKGov pretty much ignored the North. Don't forget why the British Army had to be sent in the first place.

BonnieSituation

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The poster said how they would vote and explained something that would influence how they vote. You called them anti-democratic because they were going to vote against what you wanted. You said they were anti-democratic for exercising their democratic rights. The stupidity in such a statement is hilarious. I suppose it does explain how SF fans think that they have a majority in the Dail, they don't actually understand what democracy is.

I called them anti-democratic because they valued a Protestant vote over a Catholic vote.

50%+1 of the electorate wasn't enough for Bill. We need 50%+1 of Protestants as well.

He can have his reasoning and he can vote how he wants. He can't escape the description of that decision as "anti-democratic". Because that's what it is.

What has Sinn Féin got to do with my post? Sinn Féin don't own Irish Nationalism or reunification. So pipe down with your constant harping about SF.

BonnieSituation

Randy Archer wrote: »

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Such as ? Why would people in Galway, Kerry, Cork or Waterford give a **** ? Cities like Limerick would be further neglected as serious investment would be required for a **** hole like Derry

Cities are further neglected because every two bit one horse kip needs a bypass.

As long as we have parliamentarians and legislators that act like county councillors that's gonna keep happening. If anything, a UI would dilute the power of the Grealishes and McGraths.

BonnieSituation

Randy Archer wrote: »

Eh, the Unionists, mostly whom are Prods, are the Majority in The North

The level of stupidity in that argument is almost breath taking but not a surprise

You clearly struggle with the concept of democracy .

You really need to pause for a second and read posts. Otherwise you'll be rowing with people who you ostensibly agree with. Again.

BonnieSituation

Randy Archer wrote: »

Eh, the Unionists, mostly whom are Prods, are the Majority in The North

The level of stupidity in that argument is almost breath taking but not a surprise

You clearly struggle with the concept of democracy .

You really need to pause for a second and read posts. Otherwise you'll be rowing with people who you ostensibly agree with. Again.

I'll do ya up a wee table in a minute to show you.

jh79

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Tell me about their current attitude to abortion in NI now that it's legal, as it is in the South?

Remember how the POC was used by the DUP to block abortion being implemented as it was in the rest of the UK? I mean, that sounds like they wanted to be different to the UK. Hardly a unionist approach was it?

British SF added an amendment that would not allow abortion in the case of non fatal fetal abnormality.

Irish SF were against such an amendment in Republic.

It's a good example of partitionist politics from SF .

BonnieSituation

Randy Archer wrote: »

It makes perfect sense that the referendums are held on different days.

Let the North vote first, if they say no, then there is absolutely no need for the South to go through the expense of holding a referendum as it would be moot and pointless . Nothing is going to happy with pout a decent majority in the north; would would assume that a vote in the South would pass

But then, Shinners know all about costing the state money on needless elections eg The last Presidential election

The bolded it us spot on and something I've long promoted. It's the only sensible process to my mind.

However, there is some sense to let the south vote on the same day to show that there is an appetite for a UI to stop Partitionists crowing to the contrary.

But we're a long way from that anyway.

Edgware

jm08 wrote: »

Last I saw, SF MLAs take £26,000 a year, the rest goes to the party.


Do you think they shouldn't get paid and just claim the dole?

"goes to the party"
Ellis is entitled to an exception of course seen demand for t.v. repairs has dropped