How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Hamsterchops

No point about Orangeism, I just recollect hearing about bands from those countries a few years ago in the news. I know bugger all about them really.
As regards the Irish language, yes indeed, all street names/ place names are bilingual in the ROI.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

I agree.I`d also like to know out of interest how many posters who constantly bang on about Irish language and signage can actually speak it?

Well, you see its a bit of a chicken and egg situation with the Irish language in NI. How can anyone speak the language if they don't get an opportunity to learn it?

Personally, I'm not fluent, but I understand enough to be able to watch the rugby on TG4 and understand what the place names etc. mean which I think is important to be able to understand your own heritage. If no one could speak or understand Irish now, we would have lost a huge amount of our heritage.

The Annals of Ulster are in Irish (with some Latin texts). They for example cover the history of the Vikings in Ireland. The Irish language is the key to Ireland's ancient past. Its worth preserving for that reason alone.

jm08

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well to be honest, the Irish language is not really part of many peoples identity in the South, never mind the North, this even though we're told that it is part of our national identity, we're also told that it's our 1st official language.

Yet we have all these Saoirses, Aoifes, Ciaras, Tadghs, Oisins, Cillians and Fionns!

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Belfastlive lol

If you looked at the link you would have seen they were quoting stats from the NHS.

...anyhow I don’t see anything wrong, I thought we were now cooperating accross the border. I believe ambulances, fire brigade and even school pupils go both directions. Would be madness not to.

Not in this case. NI had no Ambulance crews (just read the link I supplied).

I thought you’d be happy about good neighbourly cooperation.

Don't have a problem with it at all. Just the way you talk everything is just rosy with the NI Health Service. This debate is like two bald men fighting over a comb. But services are not up to scratch.

Did we not bail you out with a few quid recently ? And we provide a pathway for loads of your young people

No, you didn't. What pathway did you provide?

Hamsterchops

jm08 wrote: »

Yet we have all these Saoirses, Aoifes, Ciaras, Tadghs, Oisins, Cillians and Fionns!

Oh yes, I agree that Irish names are quite popular at the moment. I like Irish names as it happens, just not sure about the language being part of our identity, yes officially/no in reality (personally speaking), although my kids may well end up being fluent in Irish in a few years time?

markodaly

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Oh yes, I agree that Irish names are quite popular at the moment. I like Irish names as it happens, just not sure about the language being part of our identity, yes officially/no in reality (personally speaking), although my kids may well end up being fluent in Irish in a few years time?

It would be fine if the Irish Language was just that, a language, but it's clear that SF and some posters here use it as wedge and a tool to exhibit some sense of Irish Supremacy over others.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Not neighbours, our home is Ireland, one nation. Scotland, Wales, England and France are Ireland's neighbours.



Essentially Britain pumped money into British banks in Ireland and the Irish taxpayer picked up the bill. The British should be thankful.



Who is 'we' and what are you on about?

We is the uk. Loads of your young people need to move to our nation to follow their dreams eg Roy Kean

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

No, Downcow. My position was not that Michelle O'Neill claimed the funeral was fine. I disputed your statement that Michelle O'Neill stated they had done nothing wrong.

I evidenced this with a quote from the very same article that you posted;



Very clearly, Michelle O'Neill is not stating that they did NOTHING wrong when there she is acknowledging something they did wrong.

A more accurate statement would be that Michelle O'Neill feels/felt like she was right to go ahead with attending the funeral, but acknowledges that mistakes were made on the day. This is obviously different to saying, 'we did nothing wrong'.

So I'd say that's a no on point one for you, Downcow. I'll wait patiently for you to demonstrate multiple posters PEPPERING the thread with claims that SF did NOTHING wrong tomorrow.

Now you are being disingenuous and unreasonable.
The dogs on the street know that O’Neill did not accept anyone personal wrongdoing with regard to funeral.
She categorically stated that she had not broken the guidelines (clear lies).
I heard her asked on an interview about the selfie you refer to and she said it was wrong but explained how difficult it is to avoid a situation where someone puts their arm on your shoulder and a photo is taken - hardly a confession
She is very clear whe she says she did not break guidelines - we all know the selfie broke guidelines so clearly she is not accepting selfie was any fault of hers.
It’s actually rediculous that you are defending her.
Just accepted her piss poor cowardly apology

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Sounds like all those young musicians would have an absolute ball at this Irish College (Coláiste Lurgan is an Irish summer college in Galway)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A6__HssHW8

Singing, dancing, playing all sorts of instruments, young people having a great time - 7.5 million hits on youtube. They have done loads of covers in Irish and made videos of them.




Does young people in the video don't look disinterested, do they?




Its part of the Irish identity and heritage. Just like marching bands are part of Orange culture.

My point was not about the ability to produce a pr video or a small number of young people attending an Irish language summer school.
You actually are reinforcing the point I am making
When you google it it is certainly a niche activity with doubtful even a few hundred at the biggest event, and interesting the concern about covid have a serious impact on numbers going forward due to break this year.
I don’t hear any concern that young people are going to walk away from bands because they miss a year. And we are talking about tens of thousands of young people attending the bigger parading events.
I am just saying I would be embarrassed to refer to parading as part of my identity if had similarly tiny interest among youth as Irish language, had such tiny voluntary participation and if the only demonstration I could find of people enjoying participating was a professionally made PR video.
I have no problem with you regarding it as your identity. I’m just saying that if marching bands were in a similar state in our community I would say it’s time to move on to what the community enjoy and treasure

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Now you are being disingenuous and unreasonable.
The dogs on the street know that O’Neill did not accept anyone personal wrongdoing with regard to funeral.
She categorically stated that she had not broken the guidelines (clear lies).
I heard her asked on an interview about the selfie you refer to and she said it was wrong but explained how difficult it is to avoid a situation where someone puts their arm on your shoulder and a photo is taken - hardly a confession
She is very clear whe she says she did not break guidelines - we all know the selfie broke guidelines so clearly she is not accepting selfie was any fault of hers.
It’s actually rediculous that you are defending her.
Just accepted her piss poor cowardly apology

I'm not defending her at all, Downcow. Just calling out your hyperbole.

You stated that she said she had done NOTHING wrong....I provided a quote (from your source) of her acknowledging something she did wrong, therefore she did not claim she did NOTHING wrong.

You'll recall when you asked me, I agreed that SF were wrong in this whole situation. I'm not calling out your hyperbole/exaggeration to defend SF, but rather because you have a tendency to make these exaggerations to push your own narrative. So to be clear, SF were wrong in their handling of the Bobby Storey funeral, which does not change the fact that you were lying when you said the thread was full of Republicans stating they did nothing wrong.

Still waiting for all your evidence from the thread...

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Like Unionists, those who pretend Irish is not a part of their everyday lives (Identity) protest too much. Have a look at place names around you for a start. Ridiculous nonsense.
Not sure what your point is about Orangism tbh.

I think you are mixing up your history with your identity

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Well, you see its a bit of a chicken and egg situation with the Irish language in NI. How can anyone speak the language if they don't get an opportunity to learn it?
.

This is the bit I genuinely don’t understand.
Kids learn to play band music also football, PlayStation etc with no financial support, funded summer schools, etc. Simply because they want to, and in the case of loyalist bands, because other young adults want to teach and encourage them.
This does not seem to be the same in Irish language.
If marching bands died out I couldn’t imagine my community blaming others because they couldn’t learn it.

Who do you blame for your statement “How can anyone speak the language if they don't get an opportunity to learn it? ”

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

This is the bit I genuinely don’t understand.
Kids learn to play band music also football, PlayStation etc with no financial support, funded summer schools, etc. Simply because they want to, and in the case of loyalist bands, because other young adults want to teach and encourage them.
This does not seem to be the same in Irish language.
If marching bands died out I couldn’t imagine my community blaming others because they couldn’t learn it.

Who do you blame for your statement “How can anyone speak the language if they don't get an opportunity to learn it? ”

You know the art council provides funding for instruments for marching bands Downcow, so why are you pretending otherwise?

You know a huge number of the kids practice in halls funded by government grants Downcow, so why are you pretending otherwise?

No financial support my hole. This is the same kind of hyperbole and misrepresentation of truth that I was talking about in my previous post.

For the record, I'm delighted that kids receive funding for music, and I'm fully aware of the modernisation that is happening among the younger end of the marching band scene. As the marching band scene steps away from the, 'up to our knees in Fenian blood' type blood-and-thunder music, I'm delighted to see it prosper.

I was actually involved in a community project many moons ago that involved trad musicians and marching band musicians playing and performing together, so I'm not totally ignorant of the marching band side of things. It was great to see young people from both sides appreciating the musicianship that went into their respective music, and wholly unsurprising to see a huge amount of crossover.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I think you are mixing up your history with your identity

1690 downcow...how much of your 'identity' does that bit of 'history' fill?

Good history for a unionist, not so good history for a nationalist...part of the identities of both, whether they like it or not.

Try to understand these concepts going forward and indeed in life...because when you are asked to be inclusive and tolerant that is what is meant by that.

RobMc59

downcow wrote: »

We is the uk. Loads of your young people need to move to our nation to follow their dreams eg Roy Kean

Don't forget James McClean and probably most of the posters here constantly bad mouthing the UK despite living and working here,availing themselves of the opportunities and privileges of this great country .

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Don't forget James McClean and probably most of the posters here constantly bad mouthing the UK despite living and working here,availing themselves of the opportunities and privileges of this great country .

Plenty of UKers come this way too Rob.

Their criticism of here is valid if we get things wrong. Personally I love Britain as a place...and it's people, I visit it all the time and cancelled two trips this year alone. I have no problem with it or it's people. But it does warrant criticism for it's wrongful behaviour when it behaves wrongly. And it has with respect to this island and other places.

FrancieBrady

Good to see the bould Colum clambering aboard the bandwagon.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/colum-eastwood-there-s-a-huge-burden-on-this-generation-to-get-it-right-1.4351764

Either he is going to 'a special place in Hell' or he has a 'plan'.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Don't forget James McClean and probably most of the posters here constantly bad mouthing the UK despite living and working here,availing themselves of the opportunities and privileges of this great country .

He should get down on his knees and be so grateful eh?

---

Bad mouthing triumphalism and poppy fascism is one's right in a democracy I would have thought?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You know the art council provides funding for instruments for marching bands Downcow, so why are you pretending otherwise?

You know a huge number of the kids practice in halls funded by government grants Downcow, so why are you pretending otherwise?

No financial support my hole. This is the same kind of hyperbole and misrepresentation of truth that I was talking about in my previous post.

For the record, I'm delighted that kids receive funding for music, and I'm fully aware of the modernisation that is happening among the younger end of the marching band scene. As the marching band scene steps away from the, 'up to our knees in Fenian blood' type blood-and-thunder music, I'm delighted to see it prosper.

I was actually involved in a community project many moons ago that involved trad musicians and marching band musicians playing and performing together, so I'm not totally ignorant of the marching band side of things. It was great to see young people from both sides appreciating the musicianship that went into their respective music, and wholly unsurprising to see a huge amount of crossover.

Fionn
I very much appreciate the second half of your post and that you are big enough to acknowledge and affirm the marching band scene.

I am disappointed with your approach in the first half of your post.
I could start the nonsense of asking you to identify exactly where I said bands receive no finding. But you or Bonnie wouldn’t do such a thing do why should I!

You know I didn’t say it.
My point is/was that the band scene does not need funding to flourish because it is valued and loved by the community.
Of course in recent years it has got some scraps of funding. Tiny in relative terms to what Irish language gets. Yet seems to flourish while we here nothing but excuses why so few young people speak Irish
Take all funding from both in the morning and we all know which one will continue to flourish.
It’s just interesting

But thanks again for the second part of your post

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Good to see the bould Colum clambering aboard the bandwagon.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/colum-eastwood-there-s-a-huge-burden-on-this-generation-to-get-it-right-1.4351764

Either he is going to 'a special place in Hell' or he has a 'plan'.

At least he is on the ball and not drinking the blind rabid Irish Republican cool-aid on this.

If a referendum on a united Ireland is to be won, says Colum Eastwood, there is one question which must be answered.

“A lot of people will say to me, ‘I’m not paying 50 quid to see the doctor’. If we don’t answer that, we won’t win anything.”

If you cannot convince middle-Ulster on these questions, then a UI will not be happening. No amount of rebel songs or misty-eyed stories about Ireland will compensate for it.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I am disappointed with your approach in the first half of your post.
I could start the nonsense of asking you to identify exactly where I said bands receive no finding. But you or Bonnie wouldn’t do such a thing do why should I!

Downcow, I have always answered any direct questions asked of me, and provided evidence to support anything I have stated as fact, so your, 'wouldn't do such a thing' is just a nonsensical, unsupported ad hominem. Why you're grouping Bonnie with me and angling that into the conversation I don't know. I'd suggest taking any issues you have with other posters up with them.

As for where you said (or at least heavily implied, if you want to weasel out of it) bands receive no funding, I'd direct you to the post I was replying to;

Kids learn to play band music.......with no financial support

You'll note your statement is in the present tense, so don't try the, 'I was talking in the hypothetical situation in which they didn't receive funding' weaseling out there either. If the kids are receiving funding (which I will once more highlight I fully support), then they are not learning with no financial support, are they?

Still waiting for evidence of all the Republicans stating SF did NOTHING wrong, while you're taking pot shots and accusing me of not supporting my points.....or you could acknowledge that it was hyperbole and we can move on?

Fionn1952

markodaly wrote: »

At least he is on the ball and not drinking the blind rabid Irish Republican cool-aid on this.



If you cannot convince middle-Ulster on these questions, then a UI will not be happening. No amount of rebel songs or misty-eyed stories about Ireland will compensate for it.

Why are you presenting this as if it's some great new insight, Mark? It is a point that has been acknowledged by even the most hardline of Republicans (excepting those who still stand by physical force Republicanism of course). In this thread alone, we've had pages of discussion on what it would take to potentially convince the NI middle ground, both push and pull factors. Even SF acknowledge that the middle ground will be the deciding factor on unification!

I quite like Colum Eastwood, but jaysus let's not pretend that article is discussing some ground-breaking new idea. He's passingly stating a known fact and acknowledging the work that will need to be done.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

He should get down on his knees and be so grateful eh?

---

Bad mouthing triumphalism and poppy fascism is one's right in a democracy I would have thought?

I believe most people do not have a problem with him taking a stance on the poppy. If only it was done with a little respect and humility understanding that most of those paying his wages cherish it.
He stands out from all the other players who switched nations, for badmouthing the fans of the team who give him his start, and the team which he absorbed lots of resources from.
Taunting the victims of the IRA with a balaclava on is not that smart either

I never see him but I think - thank God he does not play for us

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Downcow, I have always answered any direct questions asked of me, and provided evidence to support anything I have stated as fact, so your, 'wouldn't do such a thing' is just a nonsensical, unsupported ad hominem. Why you're grouping Bonnie with me and angling that into the conversation I don't know. I'd suggest taking any issues you have with other posters up with them.

As for where you said (or at least heavily implied, if you want to weasel out of it) bands receive no funding, I'd direct you to the post I was replying to;



You'll note your statement is in the present tense, so don't try the, 'I was talking in the hypothetical situation in which they didn't receive funding' weaseling out there either. If the kids are receiving funding (which I will once more highlight I fully support), then they are not learning with no financial support, are they?

Still waiting for evidence of all the Republicans stating SF did NOTHING wrong, while you're taking pot shots and accusing me of not supporting my points.....or you could acknowledge that it was hyperbole and we can move on?

I am absolutely not going off on another series of posts Bonnie-style of dancing on the head of a pin. The vast majority of young Unionists who learned band music do so without a penny of funding. To the best of my knowledge, every single young Nationalists is funded to learn Irish.
Dance away on the pin if you wish - the facts are very clear

jm08

downcow wrote: »

My point was not about the ability to produce a pr video or a small number of young people attending an Irish language summer school.



You actually are reinforcing the point I am making
When you google it it is certainly a niche activity with doubtful even a few hundred at the biggest event, and interesting the concern about covid have a serious impact on numbers going forward due to break this year.

That isn't a PR video - its part of the their Irish course in that particular college. They make hundreds of music videos. The Avicii one is particularly popular. Check out their youtube channel.
https://www.youtube.com/c/tglurgan/videos


About 25,000 kids spend 3 weeks in the Gaeltach each year at these colleges. Hardly niche. For many kids (especially those from the city) it is a rite of passage going to the Gaeltach where they are immersed in Irish culture. No doubt, its been a difficult year for the colleges (and the people who accommodate these kids), but they will be back as soon as this Covid thing is sorted. How can kids walk away from the Irish language. It is still part of the school curriculum.

I don’t hear any concern that young people are going to walk away from bands because they miss a year. And we are talking about tens of thousands of young people attending the bigger parading events.

Maybe there should be concern about kids walking away from the bands. Are the kids practising on their own at home?

I am just saying I would be embarrassed to refer to parading as part of my identity if had similarly tiny interest among youth as Irish language, had such tiny voluntary participation and if the only demonstration I could find of people enjoying participating was a professionally made PR video. I have no problem with you regarding it as your identity.

Its not a PR video.

I’m just saying that if marching bands were in a similar state in our community I would say it’s time to move on to what the community enjoy and treasure

Its insulting that you would compare unfavourable an ancient language to a few lads marching down the road banging a drum.

markodaly

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Why are you presenting this as if it's some great new insight, Mark? It is a point that has been acknowledged by even the most hardline of Republicans (excepting those who still stand by physical force Republicanism of course). In this thread alone, we've had pages of discussion on what it would take to potentially convince the NI middle ground, both push and pull factors. Even SF acknowledge that the middle ground will be the deciding factor on unification!

I quite like Colum Eastwood, but jaysus let's not pretend that article is discussing some ground-breaking new idea. He's passingly stating a known fact and acknowledging the work that will need to be done.

Right, so in order to even have a border poll, not even talking about successful one at that, what is happening right now to help this along? Not much really.
Sure SF are supporters of segregated education, 20 years after the GFA.... We are decades and decades away from any UI.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

At least he is on the ball and not drinking the blind rabid Irish Republican cool-aid on this.



If you cannot convince middle-Ulster on these questions, then a UI will not be happening. No amount of rebel songs or misty-eyed stories about Ireland will compensate for it.

So if we can sort out the price of going to the doc's, a UI will happen? :D:D
Good man Colum...that's great altogether...who knew it was that simple.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Right, so in order to even have a border poll, not even talking about successful one at that, what is happening right now to help this along? Not much really.
Sure SF are supporters of segregated education, 20 years after the GFA.... We are decades and decades away from any UI.

There is a very good reason for SF's education policy and it is an issue I have come up against in my own work. The education system in the north has ignored the teaching of Irish history as a part of the curriculum as well as the Irish language.
I have dealt with young people from NI who have no idea who Pearse or Connolly were for instance or Irish history since independence.

As usual you ignore the nuance of a political position and go for the sensational jugular.
As far as I know SF are not against integrated education.

gormdubhgorm

downcow wrote: »

I am absolutely not going off on another series of posts Bonnie-style of dancing on the head of a pin. The vast majority of young Unionists who learned band music do so without a penny of funding. To the best of my knowledge, every single young Nationalists is funded to learn Irish.
Dance away on the pin if you wish - the facts are very clear

It is not only Nationalists and Catholics who speak Irish

Linda Ervine wife of PUP leader!

Also Douglas Hyde was 100% against the politicisation of the Irish Language and wanted was forced to leave the Gaelic league by the IRB/IRA who infiltrated the Gaelic League/Conradh Na Gaeilge. Hyde was forced to leave and and it stopped being apolitical

Hyde also opposed the 1916 rising like most nationalists at the time.

If you dig beyond the Republican narrative you can see how it has hijacked Irish culture.
As it says in the above video Ireland was a Catholic and sectarian State.
Plus Hyde was expelled from the GAA for attending a soccer match!
When Hyde died the Government cabinet ministers from the Dail would not enter a Protestant Church!

Where are today's Douglas Hyde's? Because that is what is needed for a UI. Not the yahoo bully boys who like playing in the shadows.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If you dig beyond the Republican narrative you can see how it has hijacked Irish culture.
As it says in the above video Ireland was a Catholic and Sectarian State.
Plus Hyde was expelled from the GAA for attending a soccer match!
When Hyde died the Government cabinet ministers from the Dail would not enter a Protestant Church!

Where are today's Douglas Hyde's? Because that is what is needed for a UI. Not the yahoo bully boys who like playing in the shadows.

The reason they didn't attend his funeral was because the Church was allowed to hijack the affairs of the new state by FF and FG etc.

One of the last signs of that grip on state affairs being broken was the Same Sex Marriage referendum.
You might remember that the former Taoiseach and present leader of FG was vehemently opposed to removing that block at one point in his career.

Seems to me that republicans were front and centre advocating for all the civil reforms that finally separated church and state here. They certainly were not in any 'shadows'.