How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

FrancieBrady

DUP showing their true colours:
Economic Border = Bad
Human Rights Border = Good

https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1361574460965482497

eire4

Fionn1952 wrote: »

We had generations of it in the North, Downcow. You can suffer a few pages.

I think when it comes to "superiority" the word projection in this case springs to mind. We have since the good friday agreement been working bit by bit away from the unionists apartheid style regime and general unionist superiority complex towards a more inclusive and pluralist society and long may that continue. It seems many unionists are still having a hard time adjusting to the end of their apartheid style regime which is unfortunate but not surprising either.

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would commonsense not say to you,that after 100 years of abject failure,it wont achieve its potemtial in the uk....while as it stands its negatively affects vast tracts of irish econmy as it is....given the econmic status of the border counties?



It seems the only option not tried,everything else has been a failure

No one has explained to me yet, despite several requests. Why would a significant number of nationalists who romanticise about a UI continue to say they will not vote for one, if ni is a failure and life would be better in a UI.
Not to mention 0% of unionists and the majority of alliance voters.
There is something doesn’t fit with you wishful thinking

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It is a contested territory under current UK jurisdiction with a view to unification. We will have border polls until British jurisdiction is ended permanently.



In the north that is true. In the south rejection of a United Ireland will precipitate a constitutional crisis as the current arrangement would no longer be fit for purpose.

It is probably the only place in the world where the majority have committed that if there is ever a majority wanting to join another country then it can happen. It is the opposite of a contested state or at least it is a democratic state

Sunny Disposition

Really am interested in unionist thinking Downcow, and understand and respect that you would never want a UI, it’s totally legitimate. Would you feel that things would be worse for unionists in a UI than they currently are for nationalists in Northern Ireland? Would you leave the country if a border poll did pass?

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The territorial claim was replaced with the GFA which is, in essence, a glide-path to a United Ireland.

In your dreams. But if it helps you and the Ra sleep at night then so be it.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

No one has explained to me yet, despite several requests. Why would a significant number of nationalists who romanticise about a UI continue to say they will not vote for one, if ni is a failure and life would be better in a UI.
Not to mention 0% of unionists and the majority of alliance voters.
There is something doesn’t fit with you wishful thinking

The latest polling.

LucidTalk’s new survey asked: “If there was a referendum, ie border poll, on the constitutional position of Northern Ireland would you vote for NI to be...”


> Part of the UK: 46.8%

> Part of a United Ireland: 42.3%

> Don’t know/not sure currently (but will vote): 10.7%

Natterjack from Kerry

downcow wrote: »

No one has explained to me yet, despite several requests. Why would a significant number of nationalists who romanticise about a UI continue to say they will not vote for one, if ni is a failure and life would be better in a UI.
Not to mention 0% of unionists and the majority of alliance voters.
There is something doesn’t fit with you wishful thinking

It would seem the misconception that leads them to be unable to explain it, is that they start from a premise of NI being a failed backwater, socially and economically, and the south being a social and economic paragon of statedom. And so conclude that NI has to want join the south. Unable to see that the premise is incorrect, they almost dont understand your question.

downcow

eire4 wrote: »

I think when it comes to "superiority" the word projection in this case springs to mind. We have since the good friday agreement been working bit by bit away from the unionists apartheid style regime and general unionist superiority complex towards a more inclusive and pluralist society and long may that continue. It seems many unionists are still having a hard time adjusting to the end of their apartheid style regime which is unfortunate but not surprising either.

You are talking about my country the way you accused England of talking about your country several centuries ago.
The people of my country can vote to let you take us over at any time. They are consistently not doing it and you continue to talk about us as if you own us.

Del.Monte

Deleted User wrote: »

ni isnt a country :pac:


Its an utter failure

Unlike this rip-roaring success of a country. :rolleyes:

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Really am interested in unionist thinking Downcow, and understand and respect that you would never want a UI, it’s totally legitimate. Would you feel that things would be worse for unionists in a UI than they currently are for nationalists in Northern Ireland? Would you leave the country if a border poll did pass?

Thanks sunny.
Ni has the greatest equality legislation etc in the world. We are not living in the 60s now. I think nationalists get fair play. Both they and us complain a lot about the other getting special treatment.

I don’t think we’d be treated badly in Roi, but by the same account if Roi rejoined the UK I don’t think you’d be badly treated.

We are very well off (most of us) financially and (all of us) with free health care. But for me it’s about - this is my country and I am not about to wish it away.
I have zero connection to Roi. If there was a UI I would be supporting british teams, and have british interests still.

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

ni isnt a country :pac:


Its an utter failure

Thank you. This is really helpful attitude to ensure a UI will never happen. 18th century attitudes

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think we’d be treated badly in Roi, but by the same account if Roi rejoined the UK I don’t think you’d be badly treated.

We would. We just have to look at how UK PM's shaft Unionists to know that.
We wouldn't be that easily played.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Ni has the greatest equality legislation etc in the world.

I'm just going to leave this hanging there as evidence for a complete and utter lack of self awareness.

Equality legislation has been fought against tooth and nail by Unionist representatives time and time again for the entirety of the existence of NI.

Natterjack from Kerry

downcow wrote: »

If there was a UI I would be supporting british teams, and have british interests still.

Most people in the republic support British teams, watch British TV, follow its cultural traditions like almost every aspect of Christmas as we were a couple of months ago, read British newspapers, extend our business contacts there as our first venture abroad, etc, etc. Even those republicans who wish to incorporate NI into Ireland, are still deeply wedded to the UK. So you do have that in common with them !

eire4

downcow wrote: »

You are talking about my country the way you accused England of talking about your country several centuries ago.
The people of my country can vote to let you take us over at any time. They are consistently not doing it and you continue to talk about us as if you own us.

Ahh I never cease to be impressed how good at trolling you are. Gives me great entertainment I must say. As I said above there are still many unionist's having a hard time with the fact that since the good friday agreement their days of running an apartheid style regime are over and that their days of "superiority" are over and that we continue to move towards a more pluralist society despite the fact that many unionists fight tooth and nail against equality and pluralism.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

You are talking about my country the way you accused England of talking about your country several centuries ago.
The people of my country can vote to let you take us over at any time. They are consistently not doing it and you continue to talk about us as if you own us.

Nobody will be taking anyone over. Nobody really gives a shit about people's religion or ethnicity down here.

In the last election the Irish versions of UKIP got 0.2 % of the vote. We're an outward-looking people comfortable with being both Irish and European.

I've little doubt that a growing section of the Unionist population must be seeing a United Ireland as a way to reclaim their European identity.

BonnieSituation

eire4 wrote: »

I think when it comes to "superiority" the word projection in this case springs to mind. We have since the good friday agreement been working bit by bit away from the unionists apartheid style regime and general unionist superiority complex towards a more inclusive and pluralist society and long may that continue. It seems many unionists are still having a hard time adjusting to the end of their apartheid style regime which is unfortunate but not surprising either.

Equality looks like oppression to those so used to privilege.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Deference to or indeed acceptance of the concept of 'monarchy' is anathema to me as a republican. I wouldn't feel we were a republic if we give any deference to it.

that still doesn't answer the question. How would joining water down Ireland's sense of being a republic?

what deference qould it be giving?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Countries joined the Commonwealth because they were desperate for the economic benefits (India etc) we don't need to do that as we are full members of an economic union already and indeed, if Boris and the Tories developed a plan to develop it as an economic Union, it could take us into conflict with our valued position in the EU.

Countries join for a number of reasons, some just because it fosters relationships with other countries.

Del.Monte

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Nobody will be taking anyone over. Nobody really gives a shit about people's religion or ethnicity down here.

In the last election the Irish versions of UKIP got 0.2 % of the vote. We're an outward-looking people comfortable with being both Irish and European.

I've little doubt that a growing section of the Unionist population must be seeing a United Ireland as a way to reclaim their European identity.

What rock are you living under?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'm just going to leave this hanging there as evidence for a complete and utter lack of self awareness.

Equality legislation has been fought against tooth and nail by Unionist representatives time and time again for the entirety of the existence of NI.

I was talking about the entirety of the existence of ni. I am no more responsible for ni past than you are for Slaves being brought to ireland

downcow

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Most people in the republic support British teams, watch British TV, follow its cultural traditions like almost every aspect of Christmas as we were a couple of months ago, read British newspapers, extend our business contacts there as our first venture abroad, etc, etc. Even those republicans who wish to incorporate NI into Ireland, are still deeply wedded to the UK. So you do have that in common with them !

Absolutely. That wasn’t lost on me when I made the point.

Natterjack from Kerry

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Nobody will be taking anyone over. Nobody really gives a shit about people's religion or ethnicity down here.

If they dont give a sh;t about people's religion or ethnicity, then why the concern about absorbing them into the republic ?

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Mate,with best will.in the world....demographics are pretty much insuring it


Its been an utter failure,when sammy wilson is its top level political talent.....you get notion of its like titanic after clipping an iceberg,a sinking ship,a case of when not if,anymore


Like,your free to outline what area NI isnt a failure,(has given nearly half its "existance" in civil war)and leads world/european data


Yous have had 100 years to make somethig of it,building brilliant bonfires (not a culture btw),it hasnt progressed,infact regressed......

1921,it contained 66% of the islands econmic output.....it should have been a world leading country,instead its now among poorest regions in northern europe

Agree. Whether Gregory and his racism or Connor Murphy defending his boys killing paul Quinn. Our old politicians leave something to be desired.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

that still doesn't answer the question. How would joining water down Ireland's sense of being a republic?

what deference qould it be giving?[?QUOTE]
In my opinion a republican should be repudiating anything to do with a class system or entitlement just because of who you were born to.

Countries join for a number of reasons, some just because it fosters relationships with other countries.

Good for them. We are already in a union that does that and we are outward looking. The UK is too volatile and I would counsel against getting involved in something they could use divisively.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In my opinion a republican should be repudiating anything to do with a class system or entitlement just because of who you were born to.

still doesn't answer the question.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Good for them. We are already in a union that does that and we are outward looking. The UK is too volatile and I would counsel against getting involved in something they could use divisively.

The commonwealth isn't a union, you can be in both. Just like Malta and Cyprus are.

In what way is the UK volatile and how could they use the commonwealth divisively?

Junkyard Tom

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

If they dont give a sh;t about people's religion or ethnicity, then why the concern about absorbing them into the republic ?

Non sequitur + straw-man = gibberish.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I was talking about the entirety of the existence of ni. I am no more responsible for ni past than you are for Slaves being brought to ireland

As recently as... right now, the majority party voted for by your community have continued to oppose equality legislation.

You may not be responsible for that which happened before you're born, but you're certainly responsible for that which has happened in the time you've been old enough to vote. Trying to compare what still living people are responsible for to something which happened before anyone who is currently living could've met someone who met someone who lived at the time.....well you know how foolish that is.

Natterjack from Kerry

Deleted User wrote: »

To make a better life for everyone on the island


The poorest in ni,deserve same oppurtunities as the rest of us on the island....its the best hope for the future

Would you still hold it against the UK, when Ireland made a hames of its independence and was poorer than NI, let alone the wider UK, that it did not work towards reunification of the UK including the 26 ?

Fionn1952

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Would you still hold it against the UK, when Ireland made a hames of its independence and was poorer than NI, let alone the wider UK, that it did not work towards reunification of the UK including the 26 ?

Ireland started off poorer than NI, let alone the rest of the UK...were you expecting them to wake up the morning after independence and find a rake of money?!