How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Yeah, I get what you’re saying, I feel the economic arguments are only going to be relevant for a minority. Protestants are going to want to stay with the UK regardless and Catholics will want a United Ireland. So when we do have a border poll it’ll largely be a sectarian headcount.
I’d agree that unionists won’t be ill treated in a future UI, don’t think southerners are invested in that religious division stuff, most think it’s mad.
To an extent I’d agree that Catholics are doing okay in NI now, but there are some issues. The big one I see is that Catholics were alienated from the police for so long that they still don’t want to join it, there’s no tradition of that, whereas most extended families in the south would have a Garda. Plus the Catholic areas in some places were very badly designed. Derry is a good example, the Bogside and Creggan areas were designed to fit too many people and are overly crowded.
These are legacy issues I know, but they’re still there. I’d be of the view that they need to have policies encouraging Catholic recruitment to the PSNI. Of course it won’t sit well with some Protestants, but the big picture needs to come first, if the police doesn’t reflect those being policed it’s a recipe for disaster.

I can’t disagree with any of that.
There is also no tradition of Catholics living in fear because they are members of the Psni It is extremely difficult for young Catholics who take the risk. I know a young catholic women Psni who can’t cost her parents in a fairly moderate area. The republicans have focused on attacking Catholics Psni
Also Protestant community has had 50 years practice putting arms around and looking after security forces.
So it’s complex

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

The republicans have focused on attacking Catholics Psni

*citation needed...

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

downcow wrote: »

Thats factual. Whats your issue with that statement.
I have no issue with any of it. It was just a bit of whataboutery as Francie was of on one having a problem with Craig dating that ni was a Protestant country which was also a fact.

So no, no issues from me. And just lowered myself to engage in a bit of whataboutery




Also factual. The majority of people were RC. Of course the country is going to be culturally catholic. I'd be interested in knowing what your issue is with this.




I'm not sure what point you or the Cruiser is trying to make here. Compare the situation to that in England. The established church in England is the Church of England with the Queen as its Head. England can be regarded as a protestant country. Thats factual. What is the problem with that if the majority of the people who live in England are protestant.






Factual. Whats the issue with saying that if that is what he believed. The essence of being a republic is to respect everyone's beliefs.



How was ROI a cold house for protestants?Was there widespread discrimination against Protestants (bearing in mind that the banks, professional occupations, major manufacturing were all protestant owned and managed)?


Dev wrote into the Irish Constitution of 1937 equality and freedom to practice your beliefs for all.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

He gets presented with several senior Unionist politicians being sectarian, now he 'doesn't want to talk about the past'.
All of those sectarian politicians honoured by the monarchy too.

Rotten state is an understatement.

You see. It’s Francie trying to take us back to the past again. I’ll resist this time

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

*citation needed...

Are you suggesting you don’t know that republicans are singling out catholic Psni officers for attack ??

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Are you suggesting you don’t know that republicans are singling out catholic Psni officers for attack ??

I don't think it is as widely spread as you're trying to imply. Has it happened? Absolutely. Is it more common than Loyalist paramilitaries targeting the PSNI? I doubt it.

Is it prevalent enough to be one of the main reasons that those from a CNR background are underrepresented in the PSNI? Well I'll repeat, citation needed.

Five Eighth

downcow wrote: »

Your post was not factual. You referred to ‘the exclusively Protestant B specials’. That is not factual.
So don’t bandy about inaccuracies and call them facts.

“The Specials were specifically designed as a sectarian force and were not well received in British Liberal and Labour Party circles…the Specials were to be chosen by all-loyalist selection committees. UVF leaders admitted that it was fully recognised that, at first at any rate, no Roman Catholics will respond. The Cromwell Clubs which were subsumed into the Specials were located mainly in Belfast…each club had between 50 and 100 members each drawn from the ranks of loyalist ex-service men. At one recruiting meeting, a Sergeant William McCartney said the object of the Clubs was to establish a system of terror amongst Catholics by shootings, ambushes and midnight visits to ordinary houses.”
- Tim Pat Coogan. (1991). Michael Collins. P.337.

downcow

Five Eighth wrote: »

“The Specials were specifically designed as a sectarian force and were not well received in British Liberal and Labour Party circles…the Specials were to be chosen by all-loyalist selection committees. UVF leaders admitted that it was fully recognised that, at first at any rate, no Roman Catholics will respond. The Cromwell Clubs which were subsumed into the Specials were located mainly in Belfast…each club had between 50 and 100 members each drawn from the ranks of loyalist ex-service men. At one recruiting meeting, a Sergeant William McCartney said the object of the Clubs was to establish a system of terror amongst Catholics by shootings, ambushes and midnight visits to ordinary houses.”
- Tim Pat Coogan. (1991). Michael Collins. P.337.

I am just pointing out that you are wrong when you say the b specials were ‘exclusively protestant’. Facts are facts and you are wrong
Same as gaa is not exclusively catholic

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I don't think it is as widely spread as you're trying to imply. Has it happened? Absolutely. Is it more common than Loyalist paramilitaries targeting the PSNI? I doubt it.

Is it prevalent enough to be one of the main reasons that those from a CNR background are underrepresented in the PSNI? Well I'll repeat, citation needed.

I am not sure why you are bring loyalist paramilitaries into the discussion.
I am stating that republicans are focusing on catholic Psni officers. If you didn’t know that and need evidence I try and get it tomorrow. But I assure you it is the case.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So Monday is D-Day in the HoC. Getting the popcorn in.

Had a day doing my Covid duty. What news on the Rialto dearest Francie?

downcow

Irish catholic’s will have to realise that the world has moved on. De Valera and several here are on the wrong side of history. We really don’t see stuff and think now how does that connect to catholicism hehe . https://www.facebook.com/sanctafamiliamedia/videos/when-a-news-presenter-forgets-its-ash-wednesday/1943798469282591/

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I am not sure why you are bring loyalist paramilitaries into the discussion.
I am stating that republicans are focusing on catholic Psni officers. If you didn’t know that and need evidence I try and get it tomorrow. But I assure you it is the case.

I am not doubting that some Republicans are targeting Catholic PSNI officers (so don't bother providing evidence in the form of single events), I'm suggesting that it is not a common enough occurrence to be a significant motivating factor regarding recruitment.

The reason I highlighted that Loyalist attacks are at least as common is because if Loyalist paramilitaries attacking members of their own community is as common as the Republican targeting that you're suggesting, they would mathematically cancel eachother out.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I am not sure why you are bring loyalist paramilitaries into the discussion.
I am stating that republicans are focusing on catholic Psni officers. If you didn’t know that and need evidence I try and get it tomorrow. But I assure you it is the case.

If you have evidence it's the police you should be going to.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Irish catholic’s will have to realise that the world has moved on. De Valera and several here are on the wrong side of history. We really don’t see stuff and think now how does that connect to catholicism hehe . https://www.facebook.com/sanctafamiliamedia/videos/when-a-news-presenter-forgets-its-ash-wednesday/1943798469282591/

What does a 3 year old repost of something that happened 11 years ago to an American politician reported by British reporters have to do with Dev?!?!

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I am not doubting that some Republicans are targeting Catholic PSNI officers (so don't bother providing evidence in the form of single events), I'm suggesting that it is not a common enough occurrence to be a significant motivating factor regarding recruitment.

The reason I highlighted that Loyalist attacks are at least as common is because if Loyalist paramilitaries attacking members of their own community is as common as the Republican targeting that you're suggesting, they would mathematically cancel eachother out.

Fionn I think this highlights the misunderstandings and differences between communities. My community has spent 50 years with republicans attacjmjing us and in particular the ruc/Psni and udr. We learnt to live with it. We kept total confidence within our community if people joined. We looked out for them and took risks along with them to help defend them (as they were defending us) I don’t think this history exists in the catholic community.

What I am saying is hundreds of police officers from within our community were murdered. It was accepted as a risk of the service
We also don’t have members of our community plotting to kill officers. There are members of the catholic community plotting to kill officers.

It is going to be very difficult to get catholic representation equal to Protestant. The hope is the other minorities

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

What does a 3 year old repost of something that happened 11 years ago to an American politician reported by British reporters have to do with Dev?!?!

downcow is pushing the sectarian stuff very hard today for some reason. Bizarre post there.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

We also don’t have members of our community plotting to kill officers.

Completely incorrect. You only need to look at the sh*te the likes of Jamie Bryson has been formenting. Since the disbanding of the RUC, there have been members of your community as opposed to the PSNI as any member of my community, Downcow.

In total, I'd guess there have been such a small number of PSNI officers killed in total since their formation that I don't reckon murder plots on either side are a significant recruitment factor.

Fionn1952

FrancieBrady wrote: »

downcow is pushing the sectarian stuff very hard today for some reason. Bizarre post there.

Honestly, while I disagree with most of it, I can usually see what Downcow is angling at, but that one had me totally at a loss.

Five Eighth

downcow wrote: »

I am just pointing out that you are wrong when you say the b specials were ‘exclusively protestant’. Facts are facts and you are wrong
Same as gaa is not exclusively catholic

I didn't say it. I extracted a piece from a book (already referenced) by a well-known, now deceased NI journalist Chris Ryder (the same man could never have been accused of having Irish Republican leanings). Ryder provided further details of the report - "An investigation was carried out by five eminent academics, lawyers and Liberal MP's into the Special Powers Act and the conduct of the RUC. The report concluded that Unionists had created under the shadow of the British constitution a permanent machine of dictatorship."

If you have a problem with the above and wish to correct the record, take it with up with the Ryder estate and... with the British government.

FrancieBrady

Arlene (who is still asking people to sign the petition) has now managed the grand total of 141,000 signatures.
She can hardly claim to represent unionism on this with any degree of credibility.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Completely incorrect. You only need to look at the sh*te the likes of Jamie Bryson has been formenting. Since the disbanding of the RUC, there have been members of your community as opposed to the PSNI as any member of my community, Downcow.

In total, I'd guess there have been such a small number of PSNI officers killed in total since their formation that I don't reckon murder plots on either side are a significant recruitment factor.

You don’t understand how terrorism works. It’s not about numbers. You only need to kill the very occasional officer to mean that every officer feels like a target all the time.
And much more effective if you do the ira move of killing them off duty. Then they can never relax.
When did anyone from my community last kill a police officer. You are clutching at straws.

bilbot79

Another one of these sorts of articles:

https://www.irishtimes.com/1.4486389

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Honestly, while I disagree with most of it, I can usually see what Downcow is angling at, but that one had me totally at a loss.

It was simply a bit of humour. I apologise if everyone is so sensitive on here. Maybe another cultural difference meant I misread the ability of some on here to have a laugh at ourselves

downcow

Five Eighth wrote: »

I didn't say it. I extracted a piece from a book (already referenced) by a well-known, now deceased NI journalist Chris Ryder (the same man could never have been accused of having Irish Republican leanings). Ryder provided further details of the report - "An investigation was carried out by five eminent academics, lawyers and Liberal MP's into the Special Powers Act and the conduct of the RUC. The report concluded that Unionists had created under the shadow of the British constitution a permanent machine of dictatorship."

If you have a problem with the above and wish to correct the record, take it with up with the Ryder estate and... with the British government.

Maybe you and me can both just accept he is factually wrong then?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

It was simply a bit of humour. I apologise if everyone is so sensitive on here. Maybe another cultural difference meant I misread the ability of some on here to have a laugh at ourselves

It didn't make any sense, was the problem I had, Can't speak for others.

Five Eighth

downcow wrote: »

Maybe you and me can both just accept he is factually wrong then?

Do you not accept the bona fides of the investigating committee? Described as eminent British academics, lawyers and MP's.

If the answer is no. Then who do Unionist trust?

It's a rhetorical question. Please don't reply.

downcow

Five Eighth wrote: »

Do you not accept the bona fides of the investigating committee? Described as eminent British academics, lawyers and MP's.

If the answer is no. Then who do Unionist trust?

It's a rhetorical question. Please don't reply.

My point is simple. The article you posted said the b specials were exclusively Protestant. I am telling you that is WRONG. I did not comment on anything else so please don’t try to deflect.
You could simple say ‘thanks for that info, I thought the wee all protestant’ or ‘I still believe they were all Protestant’ or ‘kiss my ass’
But please don’t try to deflect

downcow

bilbot79 wrote: »

Another one of these sorts of articles:

https://www.irishtimes.com/1.4486389

Yeah. We’ve got used to reading those for 40 years

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

It was simply a bit of humour. I apologise if everyone is so sensitive on here. Maybe another cultural difference meant I misread the ability of some on here to have a laugh at ourselves

.....you weren't having a laugh at yourself, Downcow. If we take your word that it was supposed to be humorous, you were making a joke at the expense of a group your very much perceive as, 'other'.

If I started making jokes about Jewish people, the French, Indians or Protestants and one of those groups took offence, I could hardly claim it is because they're not comfortable with having a laugh at themselves.

To take it to the extreme, given your usual attitude towards the Irish, I'd expect a black man to derive less humour from a joke made by a Klan member than another person of colour.


.....that all as a total aside from the fact that it just plain wasn't funny.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Yeah. We’ve got used to reading those for 40 years

Oh yeh?

When has the former editor of major British newspapers claimed that before?