How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Brendan Bendar

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Indeed, it was interesting to see the DUP cowering behind the principle of consent in an Agreement they tried to destroy when they were being gently floated away from Britain. Unionists will benefit from the rigorous equality laws that were used to emasculate the rotten Orange statelet you once ruled when the place is being run by non-unionists. When there is a UI the GFA will become the de-facto constitution for Unionist equality as a minority.



You can shit on your own doorstep all you want but you'll not be forcing the British state to come back and rescue you from yourselves.

Wish I knew what that was all about.

Junkyard Tom

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Wish I knew what that was all about.

*sigh*

the DUP cowering behind the principle of consent

The principle of consent is a central tenet of Good Friday Agreement and in general terms it means that both communities must consent to any changes in their circumstances.

being gently floated away from Britain

This refers to the EU Withdrawal Agreement that Unionists consider a betrayal and detaching of them from Britain/UK

in an Agreement they tried to destroy

The DUP tried to destroy the GFA and were eventually forced to accept it.

Unionists will benefit from the rigorous equality laws that were used to emasculate the rotten Orange statelet you once ruled

Anti-Catholic sectarianism was rife in the North so a lot of rigorous anti-discrimination laws were introduced to stop it, those laws washed the orange out of the institutions and places of employment.

When there is a UI the GFA will become the de-facto constitution for Unionist equality as a minority.


In a future United Ireland I envision a semi-autonomous region in the north east of Ireland where the GFA and anti-discrimination laws become a sort of constitution that will protect the Unionist minority.

You can **** on your own doorstep all you want but you'll not be forcing the British state to come back and rescue you from yourselves.

After a pro-United Ireland vote happens it's over for Unionist/British rule in Ireland. Any Unionist violence will only be self-harming and Britain will not be coming to rescue Unionists from themselves.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Outside influences continuing to point in one direction - the breakup of the UK.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1269184848926781440

Hate to tell you the Scottish took a vote and voted to stay. You seem to disregards actual votes for polls. Polls don't count. Official votes do

Shefwedfan

downcow wrote: »

Yeah, spot on. Quite a few here would like to wish us away. Things are fairly settled at the minute. We have very tight equality laws - in fact I'm not sure anywhere else in the world has this tight equality laws.
None of us can predict the future, but it is very naïve to think that almost 1 million Unionists, who have a very strong sense of belonging, community, loyalty, unity, etc. will be comfortable and quiet if this United island fantasy project were ever to materialise. I think you will have very noisy neighbours

You will find most of the people on here dont live in ther North, have never lived in the North and have no idea what they are talking about.



Then you have some who seem to be stuck in the 60 when all they are interested in is religion. Oh if we get a united ireland then screw the Unionists.



This is the sort of attitude we seen which led to the troubles. Thankful the majority of people in Rep and Northern Ireland have a lot more sense.


They can call people all sorts of names to try to make their point seem more qualified but in reality they can't answer the basic. It is standard SF and SF supporters from what I can see, all talk with nothing to back it up. What else could you expect from a party that has such poor leadership.


If they went into a conference now, after the first 2 minutes SF would not be able to answer questions so like on here they would try to start insulting people. Its the same childish politics which shut down the North for 3 years. Same childish politics that has seen SF who "won" the election end up joining with no other party.

eire4

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Hate to tell you the Scottish took a vote and voted to stay. You seem to disregards actual votes for polls. Polls don't count. Official votes do

Yes votes do matter but a lot of the influence on that vote was predicated on remaining part of the EU. Now that is gone circumstances have substantially changed and there are significant calls for a new referendum as a result of the current fact that the UK is no longer part of the EU. It really seems to be but a matter of time. I think if as seems likely there is no trade deal between the EU and UK come January 1 that will likely see the push for a new Scottish independence referendum intensified.

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Hate to tell you the Scottish took a vote and voted to stay. You seem to disregards actual votes for polls. Polls don't count. Official votes do

And it will stay that way for ever? Who knew.

mehico

downcow wrote: »

There is very little change in voting patterns, and what changes there are, appear to be around policies other than the maintenance of the UK.
Here's the best grass I can find. If you wanted to use the small changes to say something about desire for a united island, then you need to bear in mind that 75% of Alliance voters have said they want to remain in the UK - they are been called others in most data.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2019/12/13/northern-ireland-ge2019-results-roundup/

The most obvious change would be electoral representatives from the main Unionist parties no longer returning a majority in both the Westminster and NI Assembly elections.

Significantly 3 out of the 4 Belfast constituencies in the recent Westminster election were won by Nationalist parties with the DUP narrowly holding on in the previoisly safe East Belfast constituency.

If the recent voting patterns continue in future elections, the traditional main Unionist parties will have a tough time on their hands to retain their seats from the Alliance party in constituencies such East Belfast, East Antrim, Lagan Valley, Strangford. They have already lost to Allience in North Down, another previously safe Unionist seat.

I understand what you are saying about Alliance voters likely to be pro Union but the party is also pro EU and I believe the party have previously said they were at least willing to engage in discussion around the issue of Irish unity.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And it will stay that way for ever? Who knew.

What were the opinion polls like prior to the actual vote? From memory were people not surprised with the actual outcome?

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You will find most of the people on here dont live in ther North, have never lived in the North and have no idea what they are talking about.



Then you have some who seem to be stuck in the 60 when all they are interested in is religion. Oh if we get a united ireland then screw the Unionists.



This is the sort of attitude we seen which led to the troubles. Thankful the majority of people in Rep and Northern Ireland have a lot more sense.


They can call people all sorts of names to try to make their point seem more qualified but in reality they can't answer the basic. It is standard SF and SF supporters from what I can see, all talk with nothing to back it up. What else could you expect from a party that has such poor leadership.


If they went into a conference now, after the first 2 minutes SF would not be able to answer questions so like on here they would try to start insulting people. Its the same childish politics which shut down the North for 3 years. Same childish politics that has seen SF who "won" the election end up joining with no other party.

Do you have the self awareness to realise that in reaching out to downcow for support, you spent most of that post doing what you criticise SF for...'insulting others'?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

What were the opinion polls like prior to the actual vote? From memory were people not surprised with the actual outcome?

When Cameron, Brown and I believe Northern Irish Unionists rushed to promise Scots the sun moon and stars to remain, the polls changed. It was neck and neck going into the referendum.

Will they get conned similarly again? I doubt it.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do you have the self awareness to realise that in reaching out to downcow for support, you spent most of that post doing what you criticise SF for...'insulting others'?

What are you talking about?

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When Cameron, Brown and I believe Northern Irish Unionists rushed to promise Scots the sun moon and stars to remain, the polls changed. It was neck and neck going into the referendum.

Will they get conned similarly again? I doubt it.

I think it boiled down to the economy if memory serves me right.

I was listening to Future Proof recently and they have a booming pharma industry and the future looks good for them in terms of self sufficiency .

Unfortunately for NI they have Murphy.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

I think it boiled down to the economy if memory serves me right.

I was listening to Future Proof recently and they have a booming pharma industry and the future looks good for them in terms of self sufficiency .

Unfortunately for NI they have Murphy.

There were promises made by Cameron re: EU and devolution. None were fulfilled.
The economy featured throughout the campaign.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There were promises made by Cameron re: EU and devolution. None were fulfilled.
The economy featured throughout the campaign.

Just saying SF could learn a lot from how Scotland improved its economy since then. We all agree Westminster couldn't give a damn about NI. The tactic of making NI a "failed statelet" is ill advised. They have a great University in Belfast, encourage spin out companies etc. Make an UI an attractive proposition for the Republic. Unlike Scotland unification requires two referendums to agree.

downcow

mehico wrote: »

The most obvious change would be electoral representatives from the main Unionist parties no longer returning a majority in both the Westminster and NI Assembly elections.

Significantly 3 out of the 4 Belfast constituencies in the recent Westminster election were won by Nationalist parties with the DUP narrowly holding on in the previoisly safe East Belfast constituency.

If the recent voting patterns continue in future elections, the traditional main Unionist parties will have a tough time on their hands to retain their seats from the Alliance party in constituencies such East Belfast, East Antrim, Lagan Valley, Strangford. They have already lost to Allience in North Down, another previously safe Unionist seat.

I understand what you are saying about Alliance voters likely to be pro Union but the party is also pro EU and I believe the party have previously said they were at least willing to engage in discussion around the issue of Irish unity.

Well north down that you quote is evidence of my point. Alliance won it with a solid majority. Finding anyone wanting to break up the union in north down is like looking for holy water in an orange hall. I think it is the most unionist constituency in Northern Ireland. That gives you some sense of where people see the alliance party.

eire4

jh79 wrote: »

What were the opinion polls like prior to the actual vote? From memory were people not surprised with the actual outcome?

No the polls predicted the referendum would not succeed so your memory is incorrect. The consensus of polls at the time suggested a closer margin around 5 points rather then what it ended up being at 10 points but the result itself was not a surprise at all.

downcow

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You will find most of the people on here dont live in ther North, have never lived in the North and have no idea what they are talking about.



Then you have some who seem to be stuck in the 60 when all they are interested in is religion. Oh if we get a united ireland then screw the Unionists.



This is the sort of attitude we seen which led to the troubles. Thankful the majority of people in Rep and Northern Ireland have a lot more sense.


They can call people all sorts of names to try to make their point seem more qualified but in reality they can't answer the basic. It is standard SF and SF supporters from what I can see, all talk with nothing to back it up. What else could you expect from a party that has such poor leadership.


If they went into a conference now, after the first 2 minutes SF would not be able to answer questions so like on here they would try to start insulting people. Its the same childish politics which shut down the North for 3 years. Same childish politics that has seen SF who "won" the election end up joining with no other party.

Yeah.
My local MP is a shinner. He claims to represent all of us equally, yet he had an outburst this week where he referred to NI as a “rotten orange statelet”. His main office/advice centre is in my town, it is named after two ira terrorists who murdered my neighbours and has their names above the door along with either a Palestinian or Irish tricolour depending on his mood. He also refuses to condemn the killing of one of his constituents by the Ira.
A real nice guy giving us a warm welcome to his advice centre. Lol

mehico

downcow wrote: »

Well north down that you quote is evidence of my point. Alliance won it with a solid majority. Finding anyone wanting to break up the union in north down is like looking for holy water in an orange hall. I think it is the most unionist constituency in Northern Ireland. That gives you some sense of where people see the alliance party.

I agree with you that most of the Alliance votes are likely to come from traditional pro union voters. But it is an illustration of the changing voting trends.

Alliance already have demonstrated that they can win in North Down, possibly East Belfast next time where to next, North Antrim? And what does it mean for the traditional main Unionist parties?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Yeah. My local MP is a shinner. He claims to represent all of us equally, yet he had an outburst this week where he referred to NI as a “rotten orange statelet”.

It was a rotten Orange statelet though. That's why all those anti-discrimination laws you spoke of had to be enacted.

His main office/advice centre is in my town, it is named after two ira terrorists who murdered my neighbours and has their names above the door along with either a Palestinian or Irish tricolour depending on his mood. He also refuses to condemn the killing of one of his constituents by the Ira. A real nice guy giving us a warm welcome to his advice centre.

This coming from someone who celebrates sectarian wars from over 300 years ago and who wants bands who memorialise UDA/UVF killers to have the freedom to march wherever they want.

Unionists have an awful lot more to lose if the north was to be cleansed of any memorialising of violence/violent people.

Shefwedfan

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It was a rotten Orange statelet though. That's why all those anti-discrimination laws you spoke of had to be enacted.



This coming from someone who celebrates sectarian wars from over 300 years ago and who wants bands who memorialise UDA/UVF killers to have the freedom to march wherever they want.

Unionists have an awful lot more to lose if the north was to be cleansed of any memorialising of violence/violent people.

Is downcow a politician?

Junkyard Tom

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Is downcow a politician?

No. What DC is moaning about is considered completely normal by Unionist politicians when they do the equivalent.

Brendan Bendar

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It was a rotten Orange statelet though. That's why all those anti-discrimination laws you spoke of had to be enacted.



This coming from someone who celebrates sectarian wars from over 300 years ago and who wants bands who memorialise UDA/UVF killers to have the freedom to march wherever they want.

Unionists have an awful lot more to lose if the north was to be cleansed of any memorialising of violence/violent people.

That is the problem in that kip Tom, marching round, flying flags, symbolism, triumphalism is all these tossers are interested in.

Living in the past.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It was a rotten Orange statelet though. That's why all those anti-discrimination laws you spoke of had to be enacted.



This coming from someone who celebrates sectarian wars from over 300 years ago and who wants bands who memorialise UDA/UVF killers to have the freedom to march wherever they want.

Unionists have an awful lot more to lose if the north was to be cleansed of any memorialising of violence/violent people.

I don’t know why I bother. But Tom, when have I suggested anyone should have the freedom to antagonise others wherever they want.
That is old news. I have though threw the challenge down here often to show one example out of the last 12 months ie 3,000 parades where loyalists paraded where they were not wanted? I can show you republicans doing it in the same period.

You are the guy wants Irish signs up everywhere against the wishes of residents.

....and I am sorry that our big festival day is linked in history to an event 300 years ago that the pope supported.

Why have you no issue with st Patrick’s day? Parading all that Christian stuff through such a diverse city.

downcow

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

That is the problem in that kip Tom, marching round, flying flags, symbolism, triumphalism is all these tossers are interested in.

Living in the past.

I am guessing this is sarcasm Brendan.
I think your main celebration event involves all of the above only it is celebrating something many more centuries in the past

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I have though threw the challenge down here often to show one example out of the last 12 months ie 3,000 parades where loyalists paraded where they were not wanted?

Because they're not allowed to. The Orange Order wanted the DUP to use its balance-of-power in 2017 to force them down the Garvahgy Road again and they know the utter chaos that would unleash.

I can show you republicans doing it in the same period.

Well they shouldn't.

You are the guy wants Irish signs up everywhere against the wishes of residents.

I do? That's news to me.

our big festival day

It's not a day though - it's a season.

Why have you no issue with st Patrick’s day? Parading all that Christian stuff through such a diverse city.

St Patrick's day isn't a triumphalist sectarian festival. Apples and Oranges.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

St Patrick's day isn't a triumphalist sectarian festival. Apples and Oranges.

That’s your opinion. It’s all on where you are looking from.
As a unionist living in the uk. When they take over my city dressed in Celtic and gaa tops, waving Irish flags and burning union flags, I would suggest it is triumphalist. But unionists just stay away and don’t make a fuss

Same happens in my nearest predominantly unionist town. They hold several parades in the one day with their tricolours and even a dissident ira band through the town centre which is 90% protest

Randy Archer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Maybe when the majority of people express a wish that we be a UI, they are saying they want the likes of you to be silent Randy? Ever think of it like that?

I sincerely hope the likes of you are around come a border poll and vocalise those generalisations because any decent person listening to you would vote the opposite way to you.
Peter Casey like flaming.

When ? You mean , If !

That will never happen, anyway. There are Unionists who would rather see the place go to hell that join the Republic . Sectarianism still happens up there .

The likes of me pays for and will continue to pay for their (And your) lifestyle choices . The likes of me don’t tolerate sectarianism . The likes of me will never be answerable to scum like that . It will be our house our rules of **** off

Peter Casey ? Lol . You really are a complete spoofer . You seriously need to get a hobby, you are on this site almost 24 hours a day seven days a week and dealing with more or less the same topics .

downcow

Randy Archer wrote: »

When ? You mean , If !

That will never happen, anyway. There are Unionists who would rather see the place go to hell that join the Republic . Sectarianism still happens up there .

The likes of me pays for and will continue to pay for their (And your) lifestyle choices . The likes of me don’t tolerate sectarianism . The likes of me will never be answerable to scum like that . It will be our house our rules of **** off

Peter Casey ? Lol . You really are a complete spoofer . You seriously need to get a hobby, you are on this site almost 24 hours a day seven days a week and dealing with more or less the same topics .

Who are you referring to as the scum?

Randy Archer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh Randy...it wouldn't cost anything to cancel a referendum with a few days to go.

Then the prolonged courtroom cases where campaigners would challenge the result because people's minds were changed when they seen how the vote went in the north.

Your idea doesn't stack up after even two minutes thought.

“Wouldn’t cost anything to cancel a referendum with a few days to go “

Wow ! There you go kids, Shin Fein economics for ya. Clueless .

What prolonged court cases ? For a lad who waffles about GFA (and has proven not to understand it fully) there would be no case, if NI ran their referendum before the South and rejected the proposal . The issue would be moot until NI decide to run it 4-10 years later . What goes on in the courts up North after a referendum result (plausible either side would start one ) ain’t our concern (moreover that case could be given priority in the court)

You run the referendum in the North first, then it fails, there would be zero need to run in the South and thus no prolonged court cases needed in the South in the first place

Moreover, your logic that a challenge based on people’s mind changes because of what goes on in the North is laughable . The Irish courts can’t look at what happened in the North . Moreover, people are entitled to change their minds before voting , they are entitled to get cold feet on a long standing opinion or to lock in their commitment. No judge could change that .

In fact, the public down here been able to see with their own eyes on how a referendum campaign is carried out in the North by both sides , before we vote, would be a sensible approach. If things get out of order up their, we reserve our right to think “**** term, we want none of that , be carefully with what we vote for “

What you suggest sounds undemocratic and A things worried that you couldn’t trust people North n South

Shefwedfan

Randy Archer wrote: »

“Wouldn’t cost anything to cancel a referendum with a few days to go “

Wow ! There you go kids, Shin Fein economics for ya. Clueless .

What prolonged court cases ? For a lad who waffles about GFA (and has proven not to understand it fully) there would be no case, if NI ran their referendum before the South and rejected the proposal . The issue would be moot until NI decide to run it 4-10 years later . What goes on in the courts up North after a referendum result (plausible either side would start one ) ain’t our concern (moreover that case could be given priority in the court)

You run the referendum in the North first, then it fails, there would be zero need to run in the South and thus no prolonged court cases needed in the South in the first place

Moreover, your logic that a challenge based on people’s mind changes because of what goes on in the North is laughable . The Irish courts can’t look at what happened in the North . Moreover, people are entitled to change their minds before voting , they are entitled to get cold feet on a long standing opinion or to lock in their commitment. No judge could change that .

In fact, the public down here been able to see with their own eyes on how a referendum campaign is carried out in the North by both sides , before we vote, would be a sensible approach. If things get out of order up their, we reserve our right to think “**** term, we want none of that , be carefully with what we vote for “

What you suggest sounds undemocratic and A things worried that you couldn’t trust people North n South

IN majority SF supports are sitting on the social, so wasting millions of euro on a referendum makes little difference to them as they never put a penny into paying for it in first place.....while the rest of us have a little more concern with how our money is spend as it is coming out of our hard work

Plus run it once but set in it that it cant be run for another 20 years, otherwise we will be listening to SF trying to run it two weeks later