How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Nqp15hhu

Republicans will dismiss my positive points about NI.

Fionn1952

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

Republicans will dismiss my positive points about NI.

So just as I said before;

Fionn1952 wrote: »

So far all you've done is moan about Republicans though, which is right out of the DUP playbook.

On that note I bid you adieu, I have work in the morning.

eire4

BonnieSituation wrote: »

A lot of woe-is-me in here today from unionists and their apologists? What gives?

The writing on the wall maybe? and I mean that in the sense of the phrase not some of the actual recent writing on the wall:)

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

.....because the Orange Order and bitter old men are part of Unionism. Not only that, in the political representation of Unionism, they are massively overrepresented.

Much like you don't have to do anything to convince people on the merits of Unification, it sure as hell isn’t my responsibility to disabuse people of that perception of Unionism.

As long as Arlene Foster, Sammy Wilson, Nigel Dodds, Jeffrey Donaldson, Ian Paisley Jr and Gregory Campbell remain the loudest voices in Unionism, holding the most significant political positions in Unionism, associations with the Orange Order and bitterness are entirely justified.

Here are a few bitter old men and women who remain some of the loudest voices in nationalism. Disgraceful, and sends a powerful message to the unionist community of how much many nationalists want rid of us by any means. There are not too many civilised countries around the world who have a raft of murderers running the place.

Carál Ní Chuilín, MLA for Belfast North was an active volunteer in the IRA. In 1989, she was arrested after trying to place a booby-trap bomb under the gates of Crumlin Royal Ulster Constabulary station.[5] At Belfast Crown Court the following year, she was convicted of firearm possession, possession of explosives

Gerry Kelly, MLA for Belfast North IRA now SF Ballymurphy Bombed Old Bailey and Scotland Yard with Price sisters, killed 1 person, injured 250, given life (73) Deliberately shot prison warder in the head during the escape from Maze (83). Recaptured Holland 86 Living North Belfast ,

Pat Sheehan, MLA for Belfast West In 1978 he was convicted of causing an explosion and sentenced to 15 years. Sheehan had a reputation as one of the IRA's most committed activists. He twice served lengthy sentences for IRA attacks, and went on a hunger strike that took him to the point of death. He is clearly not your average ex-IRA bomber.

Fra McCann, MLA for Belfast West became active in the Irish republican movement and was imprisoned in the 1970s for membership of the Provisional Irish Republican Army, and took part in the blanket protest while in prison. In 1987

Seán Lynch, MLA for Fermanagh and South Tyrone Captured after gunfight April 86 while armed with assault rifle examining 800 lb culvert bomb. Badly wounded, a British Army doctor saved his life. Released Oct 98 GFA

Martina Anderson, MLA for Foyle Bombed Brighton with Pat Magee. Given life for seaside bombing campaign. Released 98. Married 89 to Paul Kavanagh while in prison PAUL KAVANAGH IRA. Murdered 6 in Harrods bomb in 83. Married Martina Anderson while in prison in England 89

Conor Murphy, MLA for Newry and Armagh Murphy was born in Camlough, South Armagh and joined the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) during the 1981 hunger strikes.[4] In 1982 he was sentenced to five years in prison for IRA membership and possession of explosives

John Doe1

There will be a United Ireland within 20 years.
The state itself will have to change however, possibly federal governments in each province, different flag/anthem etc.

These changes won't matter though. As someone who lives 10 minutes from the border in Donegal and who comes from a mixed religious background, I will be so proud when I can say that my friends and relations in Tyrone/Derry who speak the same as me and have the same culture as me are part of the same country as me

Nqp15hhu

And I will feel out of place when I am part of a country that is not my country nor one that I feel affinity to.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Here are a few bitter old men and women who remain some of the loudest voices in nationalism. Disgraceful, and sends a powerful message to the unionist community of how much many nationalists want rid of us by any means. There are not too many civilised countries around the world who have a raft of murderers running the place.

Carál Ní Chuilín, MLA for Belfast North was an active volunteer in the IRA. In 1989, she was arrested after trying to place a booby-trap bomb under the gates of Crumlin Royal Ulster Constabulary station.[5] At Belfast Crown Court the following year, she was convicted of firearm possession, possession of explosives

Gerry Kelly, MLA for Belfast North IRA now SF Ballymurphy Bombed Old Bailey and Scotland Yard with Price sisters, killed 1 person, injured 250, given life (73) Deliberately shot prison warder in the head during the escape from Maze (83). Recaptured Holland 86 Living North Belfast ,

Pat Sheehan, MLA for Belfast West In 1978 he was convicted of causing an explosion and sentenced to 15 years. Sheehan had a reputation as one of the IRA's most committed activists. He twice served lengthy sentences for IRA attacks, and went on a hunger strike that took him to the point of death. He is clearly not your average ex-IRA bomber.

Fra McCann, MLA for Belfast West became active in the Irish republican movement and was imprisoned in the 1970s for membership of the Provisional Irish Republican Army, and took part in the blanket protest while in prison. In 1987

Seán Lynch, MLA for Fermanagh and South Tyrone Captured after gunfight April 86 while armed with assault rifle examining 800 lb culvert bomb. Badly wounded, a British Army doctor saved his life. Released Oct 98 GFA

Martina Anderson, MLA for Foyle Bombed Brighton with Pat Magee. Given life for seaside bombing campaign. Released 98. Married 89 to Paul Kavanagh while in prison PAUL KAVANAGH IRA. Murdered 6 in Harrods bomb in 83. Married Martina Anderson while in prison in England 89

Conor Murphy, MLA for Newry and Armagh Murphy was born in Camlough, South Armagh and joined the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) during the 1981 hunger strikes.[4] In 1982 he was sentenced to five years in prison for IRA membership and possession of explosives

Entirely reasonable to feel that way, Downcow. All I can do is present an alternative voice and demonstrate that there is another way.....but when I suggested that to your pal, it was too much effort, not their problem and really Republicans fault.

You could vote to be part of a country where those people have never been in government! Just think you could vote to join a country where a raft of murderers haven't spent twenty years in power!

Continued partition is asking Nationalists to remain part of a country where the people I mentioned are the largest party and have been in government for decades with no sign of that going away any time soon due to mandatory coalition.

Fionn1952

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

And I will feel out of place when I am part of a country that is not my country nor one that I feel affinity to.

That's unfortunate. Regardless of your position, if and when the time comes, I and many others will strive to make you not only feel welcome, but feel part of our new country.

Imagine if broader Unionism had done the same.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

That's unfortunate. Regardless of your position, if and when the time comes, I and many others will strive to make you not only feel welcome, but feel part of our new country.

Imagine if broader Unionism had done the same.

You talk of what unionists should have done.
If unionists behave, in your hypothetical Ireland, the way republicans have behaved in ni for 100 years, do you not think you patience would be tested?

If they had the sole purpose of wrecking Ireland and making it ungovernable
If their intent to kill your police officers meant they all had to be armed
If they organised a number of violent campaigns
If they ran a 30 year murderous sectarian campaign
If you had to remove pictures of you head of state from your parliament in case they are offended
If they insisted on Ulster Scots language to be put on every sign across the island and on every government letter sent out
If they blocked roads to stop any Irish parade they felt offended them eg St Patrick’s
If they named offices of their TDs after those who carried out the Dublin bombings and the two bloody sundays.
If their TDs took their pay and expenses but refused to sit in the dail.
If they elected michael stone and Jonny Adair as their TDs and declared they were great peacemakers
...and I could go on and on and on.

Context is everything

Junkyard Tom

If we, in an alternate universe, decided to form some sort of union with Britain at some point in the future I wouldn't be pleased about it but Ireland would still be my Country, and the Irish people would still be my nation.

I find it bizarre that someone like Arlene Foster would consider leaving their home if UK jurisdiction ended. It's like leaving the pitch because the other side took the lead, not happy unless they're calling the shots.

downcow

John Doe1 wrote: »

There will be a United Ireland within 20 years.
The state itself will have to change however, possibly federal governments in each province, different flag/anthem etc.

These changes won't matter though. As someone who lives 10 minutes from the border in Donegal and who comes from a mixed religious background, I will be so proud when I can say that my friends and relations in Tyrone/Derry who speak the same as me and have the same culture as me are part of the same country as me

...and you won’t care that those in parts of ni who Have friends who live 12 miles away in scotland and who will not be able to say that my friends and relations in Scotland who speak the same as me and have the same culture as me and the same passport as me are part of my nation?

...and I assume in that scenario you will support the Eu and gb making a magnanimous gesture of moving the border to somewhere within the island of Ireland as its unionists whose identity would need strengthening? Wasn’t that the reason for an Irish Sea border

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You talk of what unionists should have done.
If unionists behave, in your hypothetical Ireland, the way republicans have behaved in ni for 100 years, do you not think you patience would be tested?

If they had the sole purpose of wrecking Ireland and making it ungovernable
If their intent to kill your police officers meant they all had to be armed
If they organised a number of violent campaigns
If they ran a 30 year murderous sectarian campaign
If you had to remove pictures of you head of state from your parliament in case they are offended
If they insisted on Ulster Scots language to be put on every sign across the island and on every government letter sent out
If they blocked roads to stop any Irish parade they felt offended them eg St Patrick’s
If they named offices of their TDs after those who carried out the Dublin bombings and the two bloody sundays.
If their TDs took their pay and expenses but refused to sit in the dail.
If they elected michael stone and Jonny Adair as their TDs and declared they were great peacemakers
...and I could go on and on and on.

Context is everything

Here is the crippling reality for Unionism...you bleat on about this as if only Nationalists are to blame. The indisputable (dispute if you can) FACT is nationalists tried to live with partition in the main, they GOT ON WITH IT, but Unionism so usurped the system to gerrymander power and to become suprematist religious bigots nationalists eventually rose up like any oppressed people will do.

As you ready yourself for a border poll perhaps reflect on your people's/community's part in the result - a failed state living in the limbo of an International Agreement between two sovereign states.

maccored

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

And I will feel out of place when I am part of a country that is not my country nor one that I feel affinity to.

like nationalists have always felt in the north?

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

You talk of what unionists should have done.
If unionists behave, in your hypothetical Ireland, the way republicans have behaved in ni for 100 years, do you not think you patience would be tested?

If they had the sole purpose of wrecking Ireland and making it ungovernable
If their intent to kill your police officers meant they all had to be armed
If they organised a number of violent campaigns
If they ran a 30 year murderous sectarian campaign
If you had to remove pictures of you head of state from your parliament in case they are offended
If they insisted on Ulster Scots language to be put on every sign across the island and on every government letter sent out
If they blocked roads to stop any Irish parade they felt offended them eg St Patrick’s
If they named offices of their TDs after those who carried out the Dublin bombings and the two bloody sundays.
If their TDs took their pay and expenses but refused to sit in the dail.
If they elected michael stone and Jonny Adair as their TDs and declared they were great peacemakers
...and I could go on and on and on.

Context is everything

You're putting the cart before the horse, Downcow.

If I was in charge, I'd strive to prevent a situation arising that lead to those things in the first place. I'd be pushing for a society which doesn't systemically discriminate against your community, I would avoid gerrymandering to ensure you had no political voice and I wouldn't have your community shot in the streets by security forces for peacefully protesting in the event that they felt aggrieved by how they were being treated.

While it wouldn't justify the response you highlighted if I didn't do this, I'd rather avoid it than turn my country into a sociopolitical mess with a barely functional economy.

On a personal level, I'll be sure to do my part to make my neighbours and fellow citizens who are culturally British feel entirely welcome should Unification occur. When I'm hiring staff, I won't go out of my way to avoid hiring people who come from an Ulster Unionist background and culture either.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

...and you won’t care that those in parts of ni who Have friends who live 12 miles away in scotland and who will not be able to say that my friends and relations in Scotland who speak the same as me and have the same culture as me and the same passport as me are part of my nation?

...and I assume in that scenario you will support the Eu and gb making a magnanimous gesture of moving the border to somewhere within the island of Ireland as its unionists whose identity would need strengthening? Wasn’t that the reason for an Irish Sea border

It's grand, Scotland will likely be out the door before NI is anyway, so problem solved.

Natterjack from Kerry

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

If we, in an alternate universe, decided to form some sort of union with Britain at some point in the future I wouldn't be pleased about it but Ireland would still be my Country, and the Irish people would.

True, and I think that's the case for most people on the island. But so much of what is Irish, is British anyway; historically, culturally, arts, traditions, political system, etc, that being from Ireland is indeed what it also looks like geographically - it's a particular subset of being from the British Isles.

In essence, the dispute in the North of Ireland is just arguing over where we all are in our gradation on the spectrum of Britishness.

Fionn1952

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

In essence, the dispute in the North of Ireland is just arguing over where we all are in our gradation on the spectrum of Britishness.

You're trying so hard!

Where are you on a scale from 1 to 10, with 10 being as British as Finchley as they like to say, out of curiosity, down there in Kerry?

John Doe1

downcow wrote: »

...and you won’t care that those in parts of ni who Have friends who live 12 miles away in scotland and who will not be able to say that my friends and relations in Scotland who speak the same as me and have the same culture as me and the same passport as me are part of my nation?

...and I assume in that scenario you will support the Eu and gb making a magnanimous gesture of moving the border to somewhere within the island of Ireland as its unionists whose identity would need strengthening? Wasn’t that the reason for an Irish Sea border

Scotland isn’t Irish, I enjoy visiting my relations in Scotland too but even though they share many of the same cultural traits, it is a different country and shouldn’t be in any kind of union with Ireland. I say that as someone with a Scottish mother in an Ulster Scots speaking area of Donegal.

To speak plainly, Ulster has been Irish for thousands of years with Irish speaking people with an Irish culture and only for the explusion of Catholics to Connacht and racist /sectarian policy of replacing these ‘savages’ with hard wording Protestant stock, this would have continued undisturbed.

You can try to make Ulster seem as British as you want but historical fact and geography is against you

lurleen lumpkin

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

True, and I think that's the case for most people on the island. But so much of what is Irish, is British anyway; historically, culturally, arts, traditions, political system, etc, that being from Ireland is indeed what it also looks like geographically - it's a particular subset of being from the British Isles.

In essence, the dispute in the North of Ireland is just arguing over where we all are in our gradation on the spectrum of Britishness.

Incredible take.

BonnieSituation

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

Incredible take.

I'm sure he'll discover the cultural significance of Asda and Sainsbury's soon enough and tell us all about how it's a significant barrier to reunification.

Junkyard Tom

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

But so much of what is Irish, is British anyway; historically, culturally, arts, traditions, political system, etc, that being from Ireland is indeed what it also looks like geographically - it's a particular subset of being from the British Isles.

'Britishness' is in terminal decline.

'Britishness' was an English colonial construct that attempted to blur the lines between the nations. I've much more in common with a Scottish Nationalist than the average English person.

The way things are going the last people in the world who'll describe themselves as 'British only' are those who haven't lived in Britain for centuries (N/Irish Unionists)

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You're putting the cart before the horse, Downcow.

If I was in charge, I'd strive to prevent a situation arising that lead to those things in the first place. I'd be pushing for a society which doesn't systemically discriminate against your community, I would avoid gerrymandering to ensure you had no political voice and I wouldn't have your community shot in the streets by security forces for peacefully protesting in the event that they felt aggrieved by how they were being treated.

While it wouldn't justify the response you highlighted if I didn't do this, I'd rather avoid it than turn my country into a sociopolitical mess with a barely functional economy.

On a personal level, I'll be sure to do my part to make my neighbours and fellow citizens who are culturally British feel entirely welcome should Unification occur. When I'm hiring staff, I won't go out of my way to avoid hiring people who come from an Ulster Unionist background and culture either.

Oh dear. A fairly black and white story of the past. But that aside, Where did this happen
“ wouldn't have your community shot in the streets by security forces for peacefully protesting in the event that they felt aggrieved by how they were being treated. ”
I must have missed that.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

It's grand, Scotland will likely be out the door before NI is anyway, so problem solved.

They can’t as they won’t be able to join the Eu after leaving and they won’t go it on their own

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

They can’t as they won’t be able to join the Eu after leaving and they won’t go it on their own

That claim has been completely rubbished long ago.

downcow

John Doe1 wrote: »

Scotland isn’t Irish, I enjoy visiting my relations in Scotland too but even though they share many of the same cultural traits, it is a different country and shouldn’t be in any kind of union with Ireland. I say that as someone with a Scottish mother in an Ulster Scots speaking area of Donegal.

To speak plainly, Ulster has been Irish for thousands of years with Irish speaking people with an Irish culture and only for the explusion of Catholics to Connacht and racist /sectarian policy of replacing these ‘savages’ with hard wording Protestant stock, this would have continued undisturbed.

You can try to make Ulster seem as British as you want but historical fact and geography is against you

Check your history. This is so factually incorrect both on lack of connection with Scotland and the idea that Ireland was united, that I am not going to bother working through it

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Oh dear. A fairly black and white story of the past. But that aside, Where did this happen
“ wouldn't have your community shot in the streets by security forces for peacefully protesting in the event that they felt aggrieved by how they were being treated. ”
I must have missed that.

My post acknowledges wrongs on both sides, Downcow. Tell me again how I'm the one engaging in black and white thinking?

The obvious example would be Bloody Sunday, which despite your unfounded accusations about shots being fired, your own government's inquiry concluded that the British Army opened fire without provocation, and any shots fired in retaliation did not come from protesters, but from two nearby IRA snipers AFTER the Paras opened fire.

the killings were both "unjustified" and "unjustifiable". It found that all of those shot were unarmed, that none were posing a serious threat, that no bombs were thrown and that soldiers "knowingly put forward false accounts" to justify their firing.

You know, the one that your Prime Minister at the time apologised for, and has been universally condemned outside of a small sect of Unionism determined to deny history to preserve their own false narrative?

To accuse me of black and white thinking, while you're still clinging so desperately to your, 'British were the good guys' narrative that you struggle to acknowledge the wrongdoing of Bloody Sunday.....that's just laughably ironic. The mental gymnastics you'll pull to defend the shooting of people who are running away or helping victims who have already been shot is shocking.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That claim has been completely rubbished long ago.

Both alliance and SDLP said just yesterday that it was logistically impossible to have an Eu land border in Ireland. So why would it be different logistically on the GB island?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

My post acknowledges wrongs on both sides, Downcow. Tell me again how I'm the one engaging in black and white thinking?

The obvious example would be Bloody Sunday, which despite your unfounded accusations about shots being fired, your own government's inquiry concluded that the British Army opened fire without provocation, and any shots fired in retaliation did not come from protesters, but from two nearby IRA snipers AFTER the Paras opened fire.



You know, the one that your Prime Minister at the time apologised for, and has been universally condemned outside of a small sect of Unionism determined to deny history to preserve their own false narrative?

To accuse me of black and white thinking, while you're still clinging so desperately to your, 'British were the good guys' narrative that you struggle to acknowledge the wrongdoing of Bloody Sunday.....that's just laughably ironic. The mental gymnastics you'll pull to defend the shooting of people who are running away or helping victims who have already been shot is shocking.

You have a strange way of describing an illegal march that descended into a riot before the army done anything. And I am not justifying what the army done, I am asking for some honesty. The biggest challenge for nationalist will be to change their victim narrative.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Check your history. This is so factually incorrect both on lack of connection with Scotland and the idea that Ireland was united, that I am not going to bother working through it

I have to partially agree and partially disagree with this, Downcow.

Connections between Ireland (though not specifically the region now known as Northern Ireland) and Scotland massively predate the plantation of Ulster (see Dál Riada in the 6th Century for example).

I've provided ample evidence of the existence of a (politically) unified Ireland before the Norman invasion on repeated occasions, and the cultural unification of the country before this point is completely indisputable. This nouveau Unionist trend of trying to undermine the seeking of Unification by comparing a feudal system from over 800 years ago to modern systems of government and to suggest this means that an Irish people and Irish nation didn't exist before the British is contrived and ludicrously transparent. It is akin to saying the UK has never existed because it has counties and shires.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Both alliance and SDLP said just yesterday that it was logistically impossible to have an Eu land border in Ireland. So why would it be different logistically on the GB island?

They can say what they want, they won't have any say in whether Scotland can join the EU or not.

There will be no land border here for a variety of reasons, not just the logistical one.