How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

You have a strange way of describing an illegal march that descended into a riot before the army done anything. And I am not justifying what the army done, I am asking for some honesty. The biggest challenge for nationalist will be to change their victim narrative.

Your government disagrees with your narrative, Downcow.

The report states, contrary to previous assertions, that no stones and no petrol bombs were thrown by civilians before British soldiers shot at them, and that the civilians were not posing any threat

It is a sign of the level of corruption endemic to the society of the time that a protest march could be deemed illegal.

Either way, I'll add to my list; if I was in charge post-Unification, I would allow your community the right to protest and wouldn't shoot at civilians aiding other members of your community or running away and then spend thirty years trying to cover it up.

lurleen lumpkin

downcow wrote: »

You have a strange way of describing an illegal march that descended into a riot before the army done anything. And I am not justifying what the army done, I am asking for some honesty. The biggest challenge for nationalist will be to change their victim narrative.

Ah, I knew I recognised that writing style. You are Edwin Poots and I claim my five pounds.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They can say what they want, they won't have any say in whether Scotland can join the EU or not.

There will be no land border here for a variety of reasons, not just the logistical one.

You would think a 'British person' would understand the topography and geography of 'their' country. Even a quick glance at Google maps would give clarity as to why a border between England and Scotland would be a piece of piss.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I have to partially agree and partially disagree with this, Downcow.

Connections between Ireland (though not specifically the region now known as Northern Ireland) and Scotland massively predate the plantation of Ulster (see Dál Riada in the 6th Century for example).

I've provided ample evidence of the existence of a (politically) unified Ireland before the Norman invasion on repeated occasions, and the cultural unification of the country before this point is completely indisputable. This nouveau Unionist trend of trying to undermine the seeking of Unification by comparing a feudal system from over 800 years ago to modern systems of government and to suggest this means that an Irish people and Irish nation didn't exist before the British is contrived and ludicrously transparent. It is akin to saying the UK has never existed because it has counties and shires.

I will also partially agree with you But can you give me examples from around the world of where a region has been part of a UN recognised nation (UK) for hundreds of years, and the majority of that region have evidenced time and again over the past 100 years that they want to remain part of that world power (UK). That a neighbouring country (a minnow on the world stage) who ruled them centuries ago, continues to agitate to remove them for a take over?
I’ll give you lots of examples where it doesn’t happen

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They can say what they want, they won't have any say in whether Scotland can join the EU or not.

There will be no land border here for a variety of reasons, not just the logistical one.

We know the reason. Threat of violence!

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Your government disagrees with your narrative, Downcow.
p.

That’s strange. One of your respected newspapers agrees with me 100%
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/explainer-what-happened-on-bloody-sunday-in-1972-1.3825614%3fmode=amp

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You would think a 'British person' would understand the topography and geography of 'their' country. Even a quick glance at Google maps would give clarity as to why a border between England and Scotland would be a piece of piss.

A piece of piss! Haha. 50,000 vechicles, 10,000 HGVs, and endless train and plane travellers daily.

maccored

unionism is such a basket case. votes for Brexit, then complains once it gets brexit. d'oh!

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

We know the reason. Threat of violence!

Multiple reasons, not least the absolute certainty that Brexit was not going to effect us in a way we didn't want. i.e. We used our power in the EU to insist the british government did what we wanted.

You guys wanted to Brexit, it should cost you, not us.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I will also partially agree with you But can you give me examples from around the world of where a region has been part of a UN recognised nation (UK) for hundreds of years, and the majority of that region have evidenced time and again over the past 100 years that they want to remain part of that world power (UK). That a neighbouring country (a minnow on the world stage) who ruled them centuries ago, continues to agitate to remove them for a take over?
I’ll give you lots of examples where it doesn’t happen

I'm not sure if you're genuinely unaware of this Downcow, but there are a huge number of disputed territories across the world. Fortunately we have the GFA in place to ensure that whatever happens with NI will be due to the wishes of its people, and not due to military conquest and pushing the people who currently live there out of their homes.

If you wish for an example where a significant portion of the local population wish to maintain the status quo, you could look to Olivenza and Táglia between Spain and Portugal, the Plazas de soberanía/Ceuta/Melilla dispute between Spain and Morocco, Mayotte between France and Comoros (actually they had a referendum on it recently, though it is still hotly disputed by Comoros), never mind the obvious ones like Kashmir and the countless disputes along the Russian/Ukrainian border. You also have quite a few on the other side where the population have made it clear they do not wish it to continue, like Britain's continued refusal to decolonise the Chagos archipelago.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Both alliance and SDLP said just yesterday that it was logistically impossible to have an Eu land border in Ireland. So why would it be different logistically on the GB island?

Geography helps greatly. The river Tweed (and others), two national parks, mountains form natural boundaries. There are only a couple of roads between the two jurisdictions. It has a natural boundary unlike that of the British border in Ireland.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're genuinely unaware of this Downcow, but there are a huge number of disputed territories across the world. Fortunately we have the GFA in place to ensure that whatever happens with NI will be due to the wishes of its people, and not due to military conquest and pushing the people who currently live there out of their homes.

If you wish for an example where a significant portion of the local population wish to maintain the status quo, you could look to Olivenza and Táglia between Spain and Portugal, the Plazas de soberanía/Ceuta/Melilla dispute between Spain and Morocco, Mayotte between France and Comoros (actually they had a referendum on it recently, though it is still hotly disputed by Comoros), never mind the obvious ones like Kashmir and the countless disputes along the Russian/Ukrainian border. You also have quite a few on the other side where the population have made it clear they do not wish it to continue, like Britain's continued refusal to decolonise the Chagos archipelago.

The Chagos Islands perfectly demonstrates what happened here.
The British have the 'power' there still and the position in the UN to ignore it's courts and get away with it.
They don't have the power here so had to 'ate grass' as my granny used to say and do what we wanted with the border.
Unionism quite simply, sided with the wrong power here and the majority know it. It was clear in the limp 'debate' last night in the HoC and in the weak response to the petition.

John Doe1

downcow wrote: »

Check your history. This is so factually incorrect both on lack of connection with Scotland and the idea that Ireland was united, that I am not going to bother working through it

Where did I say there was a lack of connection with Scotland? Iona, Dal riada, the fact that a good proportion of Scots descend from Irish speaking Ulstermen are all testament to that.

Ireland was tribal yes but all the tribes spoke Irish and practiced Irish culture.

Scotland was divided also, Scots speaking lowlands, Gaelic speakers, Picts, Britons, Scandinavians in the northern Isles so therefore Scotland has no right to exist as a sovereign nation, is that correct?

Most of the transplants into Ulster were poor lowlands Scots tenant farmers who were willing pawns in a racist colonial policy of subjugation of the native population which was a speciality of the British empire and nothing to be proud of.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

We know the reason. Threat of violence!

... and criminality (which always comes with borders).

jm08

John Doe1 wrote: »

Where did I say there was a lack of connection with Scotland? Iona, Dal riada, the fact that a good proportion of Scots descend from Irish speaking Ulstermen are all testament to that.

Ireland was tribal yes but all the tribes spoke Irish and practiced Irish culture.

Scotland was divided also, Scots speaking lowlands, Gaelic speakers, Picts, Britons, Scandinavians in the northern Isles so therefore Scotland has no right to exist as a sovereign nation, is that correct?

Most of the transplants into Ulster were poor lowlands Scots tenant farmers who were willing pawns in a racist colonial policy of subjugation of the native population which was a speciality of the British empire and nothing to be proud of.

The Crown had two problem constituents - the aggresive Ulstermen and the equally aggressive Border Scots. They moved the lowland Scots to Ulster to let them fight it out between them (removing a problem from GB) and they are still fighting it out.

Junkyard Tom

Scotland is a Nation and a Country and has been for centuries, the North of Ireland is neither and never will be.

Scotland's potential as an independent country is truly incredible which is one of the reasons that London will try every dirty trick in the book to prevent it.

RobMc59

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Scotland is a Nation and a Country and has been for centuries, the North of Ireland is neither and never will be.

Scotland's potential as an independent country is truly incredible which is one of the reasons that London will try every dirty trick in the book to prevent it.

You seem confused Tom,it's nicola sturgeon who resorts to dirty tricks,she's at it now ,frantically trying to suppress Alex salmonds statement showing her perfidious ways, trying to save her own skin.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Chagos Islands perfectly demonstrates what happened here.
The British have the 'power' there still and the position in the UN to ignore it's courts and get away with it.
They don't have the power here so had to 'ate grass' as my granny used to say and do what we wanted with the border.
Unionism quite simply, sided with the wrong power here and the majority know it. It was clear in the limp 'debate' last night in the HoC and in the weak response to the petition.

Not since the days of janfebmar have I seen your fanciful notions taking such a pummelling on the ropes Francie,even your partners in disinformation are in disarray resorting to nonsensical ramblings too.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Not since the days of janfebmar have I seen your fanciful notions taking such a pummelling on the ropes Francie,even your partners in disinformation are in disarray resorting to nonsensical ramblings too.

Instead of ranting and personalised invective, why don't you point out what is 'nonsensical' and actually contribute to the debate?

Nqp15hhu

Fionn1952 wrote: »

That's unfortunate. Regardless of your position, if and when the time comes, I and many others will strive to make you not only feel welcome, but feel part of our new country.

Imagine if broader Unionism had done the same.

You can’t make someone feel attached to a country they have no affinity to. My identity is Northern Irish, that’s the country I have allegiance to.

maccored

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

You can’t make someone feel attached to a country they have no affinity to. My identity is Northern Irish, that’s the country I have allegiance to.

its a tiny statelet designed to always require someone to look after it. not a country by any stretch of the imagination.

Why though is your desire any less valid that the nationalists desire to get rid of the artificial statelet that the 6 counties are?

Also, why do unionists always blather on about Ulster - dont you know your geography?

grayzer75

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

You can’t make someone feel attached to a country they have no affinity to. My identity is Northern Irish, that’s the country I have allegiance to.

Without being condescending or anything, how would you describe your Northern Irish identity? I've heard a few people saying similar but would like to understand what the differences are to you as opposed to Irish or British.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Instead of ranting and personalised invective, why don't you point out what is 'nonsensical' and actually contribute to the debate?

Not much of a debate when certain posters are unwilling to listen to any other point of view that doesn't fit into their fanciful notions/UK bad theories.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Not much of a debate when certain posters are unwilling to listen to any other point of view that doesn't fit into their fanciful notions/UK bad theories.

There's that classic Unionist projection again.

FrancieBrady

grayzer75 wrote: »

Without being condescending or anything, how would you describe your Northern Irish identity? I've heard a few people saying similar but would like to understand what the differences are to you as opposed to Irish or British.

There's two Northern Irish identities IMO...one that looks to the UK and the other that looks to Ireland.

That's why there is no political representation for it.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Not much of a debate when certain posters are unwilling to listen to any other point of view that doesn't fit into their fanciful notions/UK bad theories.

Why was that post 'nonsensical' though? I wasn't engaging with somebody with an 'opposite' point of view.

You aren't making any sense.

grayzer75

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There's two Northern Irish identities IMO...one that looks to the UK and the other that looks to Ireland.

That's why there is no political representation for it.

I'd like to understand the posters viewpoint on it as there are a number of people who feel the same way as him / her.

Fionn1952

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

You can’t make someone feel attached to a country they have no affinity to. My identity is Northern Irish, that’s the country I have allegiance to.

That's unfortunate, but many people live in a country they feel no affinity to. Perhaps it gives you an indication on how my community have felt for generations. Beyond commiserations, and attempts to make you feel welcome, there's not a huge pile else I can do. Should Unification happen, it will be because a majority voted for it, so in that case you'd have to make do with your hurt feelings.

Nqp15hhu

maccored wrote: »

its a tiny statelet designed to always require someone to look after it. not a country by any stretch of the imagination.

Why though is your desire any less valid that the nationalists desire to get rid of the artificial statelet that the 6 counties are?

Also, why do unionists always blather on about Ulster - dont you know your geography?

I don’t care what you call it. It’s my country and my home, not Ireland.

Nqp15hhu

grayzer75 wrote: »

Without being condescending or anything, how would you describe your Northern Irish identity? I've heard a few people saying similar but would like to understand what the differences are to you as opposed to Irish or British.

It’s not about differences. It’s about being raised in NI and having affinity to this country and my country.

I’m not going to bother talking about the identity as I will get the usual nonsense about regional roi identities. And people talking about how it’s the same here on the north coast as Cork etc which is just nonsense.