How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Unionism finds very unfortunate things to unite over. It just never seems to accept that nationalists need to be accommodated if NI is not going to always be a basket case.
Just in the past few years it has fought gay marriage, an Irish language act and the post Brexit protocol. Getting on board with all of these would have been a good move, opposing them all makes it look very angry and unreasonable. Surely the DUP position on gay marriage must have lost it support among Protestants, certainly won’t have made itself more acceptable to the vast majority of Catholics.

Unionism did not unite over gay marriage. Rather the dup united with the rc church

downcow

So we have had Scotland horrified by brexit happening against their wishes and still the scots people want to remain in our great nation. That’s reassuring on a Sunday morning.
Mind you the nature of the UK is that should they ever decide to leave then I will wish them well and continue the great relationship we have with them. But I don’t expect that to happen.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-suggests-no-vote-lead-as-salmond-inquiry-drives-voters-away-from-scottish-independence-3157134%3famp

mehico

The poll will be welcomed by the Scottish Unionists for sure but potentially more headaches for Westminster as support for an Independent Wales seems to be gathering momentum now.

Natterjack from Kerry

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Now that is a nonsense, unrealistic, no more than expecting unionists to relinquish their British identity.

Exactly. So why do nationalists expect unionist to do so ? Or even try to bomb them into doing so ?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So we have had Scotland horrified by brexit happening against their wishes and still the scots people want to remain in our great nation. That’s reassuring on a Sunday morning.
Mind you the nature of the UK is that should they ever decide to leave then I will wish them well and continue the great relationship we have with them. But I don’t expect that to happen.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-suggests-no-vote-lead-as-salmond-inquiry-drives-voters-away-from-scottish-independence-3157134%3famp

That's at the very least a hung poll. It's on a knife edge in Scotland is the only way you could look at that.

Sunny Disposition

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Exactly. So why do nationalists expect unionist to do so ? Or even try to bomb them into doing so ?

I don’t think many nationalists think that is realistic. There hasn’t been an IRA campaign for a long time and even then only a relatively small minority of Catholics supported it.

Natterjack from Kerry

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I don’t think many nationalists think that is realistic. There hasn’t been an IRA campaign for a long time and even then only a relatively small minority of Catholics supported it.

What ? Any nationalist promoting a united Ireland by implication expects unionists to cease being British.

FrancieBrady

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

What ? Any nationalist promoting a united Ireland by implication expects unionists to cease being British.

Rubbish. People can identify how they wish here already.

Natterjack from Kerry

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Rubbish. People can identify how they wish here already.

Exactly. The perfect compromise has been arrived at, and any united Ireland promotion is just wasted effort, needlessly provocative, and wouldnt improve the position of the people of Northern Ireland. In a UI situation, they could not identify as British.

jm08

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Exactly. The perfect compromise has been arrived at, and any united Ireland promotion is just wasted effort, needlessly provocative, and wouldnt improve the position of the people of Northern Ireland. In a UI situation, they could not identify as British.

They probably would revert back to being Ulstermen, like they used to be before partition.

FrancieBrady

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Exactly. The perfect compromise has been arrived at, and any united Ireland promotion is just wasted effort, needlessly provocative, and wouldnt improve the position of the people of Northern Ireland. In a UI situation, they could not identify as British.

How would they not be able to identify as British? There are loads of people who identify as British here as it is.

You are not making sense.

Natterjack from Kerry

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How would they not be able to identify as British? There are loads of people who identify as British here as it is.

You are not making sense.

It makes perfect sense. They are British citizens today. But if NI were part of a united Ireland, then of course some of their identity would be removed. They wouldnt be using the pound, electing representatives to Westminster, be part of the UK legal system etc. Everybody there, not just loads, identify as British to some degree - they live in the UK. Some only slightly, and view themselves more as Irish.
Saying they could still identify as British is as nonsense as the transgender thing, like a woman saying they 'identify' as a man. Thats fine for them to think it. But they are still a woman in reality. Similarly, the unionists who are now no longer part of the UK identifying as British is nonsense - they would be Irish. And they know that.

FrancieBrady

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

It makes perfect sense. They are British citizens today. But if NI were part of a united Ireland, then of course some of their identity would be removed. They wouldnt be using the pound, electing representatives to Westminster, be part of the UK legal system etc. Everybody there, not just loads, identify as British to some degree - they live in the UK. Some only slightly, and view themselves more as Irish.
Saying they could still identify as British is as nonsense as the transgender thing, like a woman saying they 'identify' as a man. Thats fine for them to think it. But they are still a woman in reality. Similarly, the unionists who are now no longer part of the UK identifying as British is nonsense - they would be Irish. And they know that.

They have the right to identify as Irish or British today...that is the reality you are denying here.

They will still have that right in a UI.

You are highlighting some of the vagaries and stupidities of partition...we know all this. This is what happens if you forcibly partition somewhere.

Natterjack from Kerry

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They have the right to identify as Irish or British today...that is the reality you are denying here.

They will still have that right in a UI.

You are highlighting some of the vagaries and stupidities of partition...we know all this. This is what happens if you forcibly partition somewhere.

Again, like the woman who cant really be a man however much they self identify as one, it doesnt matter how much the unionist self identifies as British if his home is now in Eire and not in the UK, he will still be Irish. Which is not what he wants.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They have the right to identify as Irish or British today...that is the reality you are denying here.

They will still have that right in a UI.

You are highlighting some of the vagaries and stupidities of partition...we know all this. This is what happens if you forcibly partition somewhere.

I imagine the definition of Britishness will be a decision for the UK.
It won't be in power of a United Ireland to either grant or take away.
I'm sure it will form part of the negotiations but practically if say after a few years a UK government decides to repudiate that there wouldn't be much an Irish government could do.

Fionn1952

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Again, like the woman who cant really be a man however much they self identify as one, it doesnt matter how much the unionist self identifies as British if his home is now in Eire and not in the UK, he will still be Irish. Which is not what he wants.

.....does anyone want to tell the British people living in Dublin that they're not allowed to be British any more and they're now Irish because that is where their home is?

It is idiotic to try and apply such a narrow definition to culture and identity. Should Unification occur, those of an Ulster Scots cultural background will continue to be from an Ulster Scots background. The British government aren't going to confiscate their British passports, ergo they will still be British with an Ulster Scots culture.

FrancieBrady

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Again, like the woman who cant really be a man however much they self identify as one, it doesnt matter how much the unionist self identifies as British if his home is now in Eire and not in the UK, he will still be Irish. Which is not what he wants.

I see the Unionist is a man now. :rolleyes:

That is a problem of partition. Somebody is not going to be fully one thing in any situation. The Irish have put up with it for 100 years and if a majority decide they want to be fully Irish in a UI then an agreement is already in place to see that that happens.

Fionn1952

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I imagine the definition of Britishness will be a decision for the UK.
It won't be in power of a United Ireland to either grant or take away.
I'm sure it will form part of the negotiations but practically if say after a few years a UK government decides to repudiate that there wouldn't be much an Irish government could do.

With regards to future generations born in NI post Unification, this would certainly be the case. The Irish government has no power (beyond soft power leveraged during negotiations as you said) to give someone British citizenship. Those who currently hold British citizenship could not have that taken away by the British government under any reasonable interpretation; regardless of the constitutional position in NI at that time, at the point of that person's birth, they were born in the United Kingdom.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

With regards to future generations born in NI post Unification, this would certainly be the case. The Irish government has no power (beyond soft power leveraged during negotiations as you said) to give someone British citizenship. Those who currently hold British citizenship could not have that taken away by the British government under any reasonable interpretation; regardless of the constitutional position in NI at that time, at the point of that person's birth, they were born in the United Kingdom.

Correct, that would be for Unionism to negotiate as they leave the UK.

Personally, I wouldn't trust a word the UK say for obvious reasons, so good luck to them on that.

Fionn1952

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Correct, that would be for Unionism to negotiate as they leave the UK.

Personally, I wouldn't trust a word the UK say for obvious reasons, so good luck to them on that.

I suspect (and would hope) it would be for the Irish government to negotiate on behalf of the almost a million Ulster Scots people who now live in the country rather than just dumping the issue and telling them to sort it out themselves.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I suspect (and would hope) it would be for the Irish government to negotiate on behalf of the almost a million Ulster Scots people who now live in the country rather than just dumping the issue and telling them to sort it out themselves.

I would think any country would reject formally agreeing that. It would have to in the form of an intent or promise, I doubt it will be legislated for. I maybe wrong and wouldn't have an issue with it tbh.

Tokyo

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Saying they could still identify as British is as nonsense as the transgender thing, like a woman saying they 'identify' as a man. Thats fine for them to think it. But they are still a woman in reality.

Mod: Your transphobic viewpoint is noted. Don't post in the thread again.

downcow

Oh dear! I got serious abuse for suggesting the ireland / France birder could take a share of the checks to ease the situation. I got told no one in Eu would ever consider that.
Tony connelly, who is a champion for ROI and puts down any piece of light that removes the protocol, Has written an interesting piece.
You might want to scroll towards the end of it (or you might not lol)
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.rte.ie/amp/1201287/

But don’t worry, if this happens then the UK could invite ROI into its internal market.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Oh dear! I got serious abuse for suggesting the ireland / France birder could take a share of the checks to ease the situation. I got told no one in Eu would ever consider that.
Tony connelly, who is a champion for ROI and puts down any piece of light that removes the protocol, Has written an interesting piece.
You might want to scroll towards the end of it (or you might not lol)
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.rte.ie/amp/1201287/

But don’t worry, if this happens then the UK could invite ROI into its internal market.

Scratching my head here again as to the uniqueness of that downcow.

We have know all that from the start.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Oh dear! I got serious abuse for suggesting the ireland / France birder could take a share of the checks to ease the situation. I got told no one in Eu would ever consider that.
Tony connelly, who is a champion for ROI and puts down any piece of light that removes the protocol, Has written an interesting piece.
You might want to scroll towards the end of it (or you might not lol)
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.rte.ie/amp/1201287/

But don’t worry, if this happens then the UK could invite ROI into its internal market.

To quote from the article

But that is pre-empting a discussion which is not really being had

But as usual, you're prematurely w*nking yourself into a coma on what ifs and maybes, only to quietly drop it when it doesn't happen.....again.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

But don’t worry, if this happens then the UK could invite ROI into its internal market.

That would be economic suicide.

We'll probably be looking at a United Ireland as a rescue mission in the future. Unionists should be building good relationships with their neighbours in the rest of Ireland - all of it.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Scratching my head here again as to the uniqueness of that downcow.

We have know all that from the start.

I must have been sleeping I missed you suggesting that may be an option the Eu goes for Francie lol
We will be getting though serious amounts of popcorn as this heats up haha

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I must have been sleeping I missed you suggesting that may be an option the Eu goes for Francie lol
We will be getting though serious amounts of popcorn as this heats up haha

The only thing heating is Unionism and it looks like imploding in humiliation again.

Petition = fail
Debate = fail
Fake terror threats = fail
Letter to EU = fail
Stop Infrastructure work = fail


EU = 'Nice popcorn'.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The only thing heating is Unionism and it looks like imploding in humiliation again.

Petition = fail
Debate = fail
Fake terror threats = fail
Letter to EU = fail
Stop Infrastructure work = fail


EU = 'Nice popcorn'.

As seen from Francieworld lol

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

As seen from Francieworld lol

Which one of those actions has successfully led to the removal of the NI Protocol then so?