How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Sunny Disposition

downcow wrote: »

A lot of misquoting going on. I didn’t say they acted against the Protestant community. I said they are unashamedly partisan and there is no reason to expect that to change in a UI

Partisan how?? Irish government fought the IRA for decades, worked very hard on the Belfast Agreement, have really done an awful lot to make NI function. I know there is always a lot of suspicion towards the South among unionism, but for decades the Irish government has been very helpful to unionism.

Dyr

jm08 wrote: »

I don't think that is the reason she was appointed Commission President. If Manfred Weber (a man) had any ministerial experience, he would have been Commission President.

Take a look at the EU commisions policy on gender parity, they make being female a reason to promote. Ursulas only ministerial experience was a spectacular failure and now she's running the Commision and failing. Perfectly reasonable to point out that her gender is a large factor in her ascent to high position

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Partisan how?? Irish government fought the IRA for decades, worked very hard on the Belfast Agreement, have really done an awful lot to make NI function. I know there is always a lot of suspicion towards the South among unionism, but for decades the Irish government has been very helpful to unionism.

I can’t think of a single issue that they are not on the same page as ni nationalists. And that’s fine because they clearly see them as their people and want to support them.

UDAWINNER

downcow wrote: »

There needs to be a bit of growing up in gear. Continually hating back to the partition of the state to allow Roi to separate from the UK family.
100 years ago. Name any single country and I will show you disgusting, systematic discrimination and abuse against minorities.
You seem to think that Irish Catholics in ni had some Devine right to be more special than black people in USA, Asians in England, Unionists and travellers in Roi etc etc etc All discrimination is wrong.

Time for you guys to move into this century

There's one thing for sure that the Irish Govt in the event of an United Ireland won't collude with any group to burn out Loyalists from their home, murder their solicitors and plant bombs in the UK. Not evryone will treat the minoririty the way that the British Army and loyalists did.

downcow

UDAWINNER wrote: »

[/B]
There's one thing for sure that the Irish Govt in the event of an United Ireland won't collude with any group to burn out Loyalists from their home, murder their solicitors and plant bombs in the UK. Not evryone will treat the minoririty the way that the British Army and loyalists did.

This is exactly the biggest problem for unionists. Nationalist are not even at square one in recognising the partisan approach of the Irish government over the last 100 years - which continues today.
Nationalists still sanitise what the ira done with the tacit support of nationalists and Roi government and often in ‘collusion’ with members of British forces (I know you like to call them agents when they are republican)

Here is a blast from the past someone whatsapped me yesterday

https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR2nTGDjUtEYQREfwfBQqlaWr9EHWqqChANeHwsInHGXVV4xLwB9eN7aOZ8&v=YSoReCRTzo4&feature=youtu.be

Junkyard Tom

All those 18-to-60 year olds who support a UI at considerably greater numbers than those who don't are getting a good lesson in why they need to bring this poisonous little unionist experiment to a permanent end.

jh79

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

All those 18-to-60 year olds who support a UI at considerably greater numbers than those who don't are getting a good lesson in why they need to bring this poisonous little unionist experiment to a permanent end.

Looks likes the lesson didn't work as the polls since then show a good majority in favour of remaining in the UK.

Junkyard Tom

jh79 wrote: »

Looks likes the lesson didn't work as the polls since then show a good majority in favour of remaining in the UK.

It's hard to make sense of this blather, unless of course you've just arrived back in 2021 from the future. Next time you're in the future will you get the lotto numbers for me? Good man.

wexfordman2

downcow wrote: »

I can’t think of a single issue that they are not on the same page as ni nationalists. And that’s fine because they clearly see them as their people and want to support them.

Here is a list of where they are not.or were not.onntje same page.

1) Border poll
2) unification preparation
3) The EU (SF are very eurosceptic)
4) Resumption of power sharing (before it was resumed).

Oh yeah,. Also, BORDER POLL, and number 1 above, and let's not forget the old border poll.


Did I mention Border Poll ?

jh79

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's hard to make sense of this blather, unless of course you've just arrived back in 2021 from the future. Next time you're in the future will you get the lotto numbers for me? Good man.

What's the point of ignoring the two polls that came since that one?

The last two had remaining in the UK well ahead.

downcow

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Here is a list of where they are not.or were not.onntje same page.

1) Border poll
2) unification preparation
3) The EU (SF are very eurosceptic)
4) Resumption of power sharing (before it was resumed).

Oh yeah,. Also, BORDER POLL, and number 1 above, and let's not forget the old border poll.


Did I mention Border Poll ?

I have no idea what this all means so I can’t really respond

Ffff221

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Partisan how?? Irish government fought the IRA for decades, worked very hard on the Belfast Agreement, have really done an awful lot to make NI function. I know there is always a lot of suspicion towards the South among unionism, but for decades the Irish government has been very helpful to unionism.

It didn't really look like that to unionists since Northern Ireland was disputed territory claimed by both the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom up until the late 80s.

Claiming they "fought the IRA" is a bit of an exaggeration the Gardai were able to "fight the IRA" unarmed when a few miles up the road was the most heavily militarized zone on the planet with 25,000 British soldiers (more soldiers than were in the whole of Ireland during the war of independence) plus armed police with some places like South Armagh being under 24 hour surveillance, you could be an average Joe and there's still a fair chance you could be under 24 hour surveillance.

downcow

Apologies this is 5 x 10sec links. I don’t see it on YouTube.
Best watch them in order I’d be keen to hear if you accept the facts on them?

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMekoyQFy/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMekoMNaK/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMekoygbJ/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMekoUhnb/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMekoLWxu/

Sunny Disposition

Ffff221 wrote: »

It didn't really look like that to unionists since Northern Ireland was disputed territory claimed by both the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom up until the late 80s.

Claiming they "fought the IRA" is a bit of an exaggeration the Gardai were able to "fight the IRA" unarmed when a few miles up the road was the most heavily militarized zone on the planet with 25,000 British soldiers (more soldiers than were in the whole of Ireland during the war of independence) plus armed police with some places like South Armagh being under 24 hour surveillance, you could be an average Joe and there's still a fair chance you could be under 24 hour surveillance.

The Republic put in a huge effort to curtail the IRA something is curiously misrepresented by some unionist politicians. The Gardai had a genuine revulsion for what they were doing and a determination to thwart them. Anyone who knows any Gardai knows this, it still endures. The IRA killed a number of Garda members.
Basically the IRA were pariahs in the South, hated by the vast majority. It is sometimes forgotten now but they were despised. And rightly so.

UDAWINNER

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The Republic put in a huge effort to curtail the IRA something is curiously misrepresented by some unionist politicians. The Gardai had a genuine revulsion for what they were doing and a determination to thwart them. Anyone who knows any Gardai knows this, it still endures. The IRA killed a number of Garda members.
Basically the IRA were pariahs in the South, hated by the vast majority. It is sometimes forgotten now but they were despised. And rightly so.

Yet you will have posters on here who seem to think they colluded with them in the same way that that the British did with loyalist scum, baffles me

Nqp15hhu

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Partisan how?? Irish government fought the IRA for decades, worked very hard on the Belfast Agreement, have really done an awful lot to make NI function. I know there is always a lot of suspicion towards the South among unionism, but for decades the Irish government has been very helpful to unionism.

That's the least they could do. It doesn't mean though that they supported or aided Unionists. The Irish government has never been vocally impartial towards Northern Ireland, infact recently they have upped their rhetoric towards a United Ireland.

But on the same token expect the British government to be impartial.

Nqp15hhu

downcow wrote: »

I don’t actually care who the Roi government supports in ni. I am challenging the notion that somehow they will be sympathetic to unionists in a UI. The evidence is that they support the nationalist community in ni 100% and don’t give a toss about the unionist community.

Here is a simple example of what they could do.
They could make a statement that Irish language signage in a UI would not go up in communities who resist it.
That would be groundbreaking for them to take the unionist side on just one controversial issue.
I know there is not a chance of it as I know there is not a chance of fair play for unionists in a UI

They don't seem to actually support either community behind closed doors. A close examination of the reaction to the protocol would see that they view the NI situation as a negotiation between the EU, UK and Ireland rather than an actual consultation with the people here.

They have used American Congressmen to manipulate the process here in their favour. Not once have they worked to remedy the impacts of this protocol, infact they have actually tried to intensify its implementation; despite many pleas from all quarters to limit its influence.

And when you see posts such as that, that confirms my belief that they're using NI. So, they're not friends of anyone in Northern Ireland in my opinion.

beerguts wrote: »

I would have described myself as very lukewarm to reunification until recently. Some of the shinners on here would probably describe me as a blueshirt and that would be apt. However the recent English manoeuvres and the ulster loyalists provocations have made me reassess my views. I now wholeheartedly want the destruction of the northern Irish state economically as I believe this will lead to the reunification the quickest and protect our place in Europe. I would still class myself as a right of centre voter and I cannot stand the Northern irish politics but we will have to put an end to that statelet.
Not very popular opinion but if northern Ireland does well out of this protocol and as a result stays within the UK as there will be no incentive to leave the Brits will have us over a barrel. They could be continually messing with our sovereignty just to distract from whatever domestic issue they want to hide.

Please somebody explain to me why I would aspire to join a country with people such as the above who actively want Northern Ireland to fail economically and our people to suffer? This is such a hateful and unempathetic post, there is a long way to go clearly.

Nqp15hhu

Fionn1952 wrote: »

And if they did you'd complain anyway, likely parroting some nonsense about a foreign government trying to tell you what to do.

Probably not worth pointing out Jeffrey Donaldson's attendance (and the applause he received) at a Fine Gael national conference, or recent engagement from Leo Varadkar with the DUP despite him having to hold his nose any time he has to deal with SF.

Realistically it is all about fear though, fear that what was done at the foundation of the state would be repeated from the other side. Ireland is a much more modern, outward looking place than NI even now though, let alone in comparison with the NI of a hundred years ago. The corrupt, self serving mess that was the government of NI back then wouldn't be tolerated in any modern democracy now and there would be international outrage (and immense political pressure brought to bear) if your community was to be discriminated against in that manner.

I don't know if I agree. Throughout the negotiations and beyond, Unionist (NOT DUP) pleas, and indeed pleas from the wider NI community about the negative impacts of the NI Protocol have been ignored. Not once have the EU, Ireland or American Congress listened to or acknowledged these plea's.

They are all trying to intensify the trade barriers and harm the economic and social well being of the people here.

As above I wouldn't be surprised if they had the goal of harming the economy in NI to sway people towards a United Ireland. I don't want to be part of a country where such hatred is in place.

Hamsterchops

I can only presume that if the NI protocol stays in its current format then trade between GB and NI will permanently dry up in favour of trade between North & the EU via the South.

As things stand with the NI Protocol East West trade between NI & GB s certainly being surpresed & slowly strangled.

That's the impression I get anyway.

Sunny Disposition

On the constitutional issue of course the Irish State wants to end partition. But on any practical issues I can’t see how it has done anything negative to unionists. Southern politics largely seeks to ignore the north and when it can’t it just wants to calm nationalism. The current government despises SF and is against a border poll in the next five years.

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The Republic put in a huge effort to curtail the IRA something is curiously misrepresented by some unionist politicians. The Gardai had a genuine revulsion for what they were doing and a determination to thwart them. Anyone who knows any Gardai knows this, it still endures. The IRA killed a number of Garda members.
Basically the IRA were pariahs in the South, hated by the vast majority. It is sometimes forgotten now but they were despised. And rightly so.

Nonsense. Complete wishful thinking.
Let’s say the Uvf were murdering Catholics at will on the southern side of the border and escaping back over to the safety of the ‘north’. If the Roi has thousands of army all along the border to try and stop their people being murdered but the british government has none on their side and were turning a blind eye to it.
Let’s say the Uvf could murder the Irish army, who were trying to defend the border, by setting off remote bombs and then shooting those coming to help from the safety of the ‘north’.
Let’s say the british put more energy into stopping the Irish army straying over the border than Uvf men going the he other way to murder catholic land owners.
Let’s say lots of Uvf men who lived in the south, but had committed multiple murders of southern Catholics, went and lived openly in the ‘north’
I could go on and on.

When you go to bed at night just thank god that your community was not under murderous attack for 30 years while your neighbouring country gave the killers cover.

downcow

The first of several court cases kicks of this morning in Belfast
The British Government, the Irish Government and, indeed, the EU have all repeatedly reaffirmed the importance of protecting the Belfast/ Good Friday Agreement. The Withdrawal Act of 2018 expressly requires the British Government in exercising any powers under that Act to 'act in a way that is compatible with the terms of the Northern Ireland Act 1998'. Indeed, the NIP/2020 Regulations themselves expressly require the Government to 'protect the 1998 Agreement in all its dimensions.'

“We believe that the Northern Ireland Protocol fundamentally and detrimentally changes the status of Northern Ireland and seriously damages the economic, societal and democratic fabric of Northern Ireland and that it is unlawful and incompatible with the Belfast Agreement and also the Withdrawal Act itself. We have brought this application to avail of the protections afforded to the people of Northern Ireland by the Belfast Agreement and we hope and believe that the courts will find that the Northern Ireland Protocol and the 2020 Regulations are unlawful.”

I did say this may take a year or two but we will get Roi/Eu to get their problem solving hats on.

Sunny Disposition

The Irish State made a massive and largely successful effort to curb the IRA, its something it has suited unionist politicians to dispute, but it’s true. The Gardai and political establishment despised the IRA and knew it presented a huge risk to the State. Speak to any Gardai from the 70s and 80s and you’ll hear about it.
There was far more revulsion down South at the IRA than the British army or unionism during the Troubles.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

The first of several court cases kicks of this morning in Belfast
The British Government, the Irish Government and, indeed, the EU have all repeatedly reaffirmed the importance of protecting the Belfast/ Good Friday Agreement. The Withdrawal Act of 2018 expressly requires the British Government in exercising any powers under that Act to 'act in a way that is compatible with the terms of the Northern Ireland Act 1998'. Indeed, the NIP/2020 Regulations themselves expressly require the Government to 'protect the 1998 Agreement in all its dimensions.'

“We believe that the Northern Ireland Protocol fundamentally and detrimentally changes the status of Northern Ireland and seriously damages the economic, societal and democratic fabric of Northern Ireland and that it is unlawful and incompatible with the Belfast Agreement and also the Withdrawal Act itself. We have brought this application to avail of the protections afforded to the people of Northern Ireland by the Belfast Agreement and we hope and believe that the courts will find that the Northern Ireland Protocol and the 2020 Regulations are unlawful.”

I did say this may take a year or two but we will get Roi/Eu to get their problem solving hats on.

To be very clear Downcow, neither Ireland nor the rest of the EU have anything to do with this court case. It is an internal UK matter. I thought you lot Brexited because you didn't want any EU influence over your own internal matters, now you're asking us to solve your problems for you?

The NI Protocol will remain in place unless the UK comes forth with a suitable alternative, that's what you signed up for, that's what was agreed. You want it changed, then it's up to you to provide an alternative that we are happy with. That's generally how legally binding agreements work you know?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

To be very clear Downcow, neither Ireland nor the rest of the EU have anything to do with this court case. It is an internal UK matter. I thought you lot Brexited because you didn't want any EU influence over your own internal matters, now you're asking us to solve your problems for you?

The NI Protocol will remain in place unless the UK comes forth with a suitable alternative, that's what you signed up for, that's what was agreed. You want it changed, then it's up to you to provide an alternative that we are happy with. That's generally how legally binding agreements work you know?

You need to read it again. Either party can unilaterally make changes. The Eu know that because they were about to use it to block vaccines coming into ni.
If uk make significant changes ie not carry out many checks then , as tony Connolly has demonstrated, checks will need to happen elsewhere or problem solving hats will need to go on.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

When you go to bed at night just thank god that your community was not under murderous attack for 30 years while your neighbouring country gave the killers cover.

The utter cluelessness of this just says it all. You lot have been brutalising and killing us for centuries and been protected because of your 'loyalty' to Britain.

The RUC/UDR was riddled with murderers and colluders, how many ended up in jail? Less than 5? A British soldier could literally shoot a child or a GAA player in the back and walk away knowing they had no chance of getting prosecuted.

Also the British refused to acknowledge that the trouble in the North was a political issue (until they did) so don't cry about the Army in the south not doing their bidding.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

You need to read it again. Either party can unilaterally make changes. The Eu know that because they were about to use it to block vaccines coming into ni.
If uk make significant changes ie not carry out many checks then , as tony Connolly has demonstrated, checks will need to happen elsewhere or problem solving hats will need to go on.

I suspect you need to have a read through it again yourself, Downcow. There are specific circumstances required to allow any changes (such as a global pandemic, not so much because Jim Allister is full of bluster again and Arlene is laying bare her hypocrisy to save plummeting polling numbers), and in the case that there are changes to be made, there is a specific process to be followed.

If the height of your understanding of the Withdrawal Agreement is, 'we can just ignore bits we don't like and ask you to find solutions', I'd suggest that perhaps your grasp of international law and treaties doesn't even meet the basic requirements to have an educated exchange of opinions on the matter.

Either way, I see you've downgraded your outlook from, 'potential gamechanger' to, 'maybe in a few years it'll have SOME impact.'

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Apologies this is 5 x 10sec links. I don’t see it on YouTube.
Best watch them in order I’d be keen to hear if you accept the facts on them?

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMekoyQFy/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMekoMNaK/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMekoygbJ/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMekoUhnb/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMekoLWxu/

The claim in the first video is laughable - ''NI is the world's top region for Fintech''. That is a lie anyway.
(Just so you know, San Francisco / Silicon Valley would be the top region for Fintech).



Who is this video aimed at because some of the claims are crazy (i.e., NI is Top 10 Digial Economies of the Future'').


Other little gems in it isn't doing yourselves any favours such as unemployment is 2.9% when looking for companies to move to NI. First thing any company will look at is available workforce and then they will look at how easy is it to attract a workforce to that country (i.e., they like Freedom of Movement).

jm08

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

That's the least they could do. It doesn't mean though that they supported or aided Unionists. The Irish government has never been vocally impartial towards Northern Ireland, infact recently they have upped their rhetoric towards a United Ireland.

But on the same token expect the British government to be impartial.

Thats what the British Government signed up to in the GFA.
Article 1 (v). The Irish Government didn't sign up to ''rigorous impartiality''.



(v) affirm that whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, the power of the sovereign government with jurisdiction there shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions and shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos, and aspirations of both communities;

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Nonsense. Complete wishful thinking.
Let’s say the Uvf were murdering Catholics at will on the southern side of the border and escaping back over to the safety of the ‘north’. If the Roi has thousands of army all along the border to try and stop their people being murdered but the british government has none on their side and were turning a blind eye to it.

But they were doing that. Dublin-Monaghan bombings 34 people killed in May 1974. The families are seeking justice for their loved ones and the British Government refuses to release information to allow that to happen.


Then you had the Miami showband massacre. Fran O'Toole got 22 bullets in the face. All with the hope that the Irish Government would close the border!


You should watch this documentary by the BBC. It will explain a bit as to why the Border is unworkable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZwOffojT5g