How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

All of that to say nothing.

If Unionism is so brittle to have a meltdown at the use of "Six Counties", then what of it?

There's enough belligerent Unionists out there. They don't need you to stick up for them. It's frankly mental that you've been pushing this the last few days.

Why is it mental? It is not that difficult to accept the reality of the situation one state is called the ROI which you live in. When you go to watch a match where Dublin play away in that other jurisdiction facing Armagh, Tyrone in football or Antrim in Hurling - you are then in another jurisdiction which is called Northern Ireland.

As simple as that. There are a number of indicators that you are in the UK when you cross the border straight away which shows that you are in are in part of Britain - a constituent country called NI. Your mobile phone indicates that you are in the UK and the speed signs are in miles not kilometres. You also use a different currency for that jurisdiction - Sterling. Which gives rise to chant used by some ROI - GAA supporters when those from the NI travel south and are told 'Yer Sterling's no use down here etc'.

If parties such as SF or even ordinary civilians who are supposed to be apolitical cannot simply say the name 'Republic of Ireland' or 'Northern Ireland'. Does it really demonstrate people are ready to grasp reality and/or move forward?

It does it is not really a good sign for any potential UI in the future. Since it is symptomatic of a clear attempt to 'dilute' the other side. There is an attempt to pretend that if certain people don't utter certain words it does not exist.

Yet by the same token Unionists are supposed to believe that any future UI is inclusive. If I was a Unionist I would question the sincerity of that claim. Will it just be another twisting of terminology designed to ignore reality?

It is as simple as that to pretend otherwise is doing exactly the same as what the Israeli ambassador is doing on foot of a SF motion - playing with words and ignoring reality.

Madhouse stuff really. As I said earlier I am very conscious of the fact the in any future UI there will be a number of 'yahoo's' from both sides Unionists and Republicans. I, as a citizen of the ROI do not want these 'yahoo's' drawn down here. We have enough of them as it is. It could get very ugly. Unless the demographic of NI changes to the 'sensible parties' of NI such as the Alliance or SDLP have a greater say in NI. As it will reflect a change in the mood of the NI electorate. And demonstrate a real appetite for inclusiveness and change.

A NI where SF and the DUP are the main representatives of two traditions in NI cannot be quietly merged with the ROI as it stands, in my view.

I listen to the twisted language used by those in NI even in 'peacetime' it is sickening to listen to. Some of it has seeped in the ROI thanks to SF in the Dail. Even though they are clever enough to tone it down, to get UI by 'the backdoor' masking the real intent with promises of a 'giveaway' akin to the 1932 FF manifesto.

People in NI and those in the ROI are not the same people as I already said. Different mindsets.

There is a certain twisted nature of those in NI. Either because of NI's years of 'conflict' or there are those who want to live vicariously through such associations with NI such as David Cullinane and Mary Lou. Who in my opinion seem to feel like they missed on the real 'craic' during the troubles.

They use the troubles invented phrase of 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' which is not proper Irish. And based on an English language idiom. A phrase which glorifies the troubles and dresses it up as 'heroic'. I have already mentioned how the Irish flag is used in triumphalism pantomime by SF in the 2020 GE. All that bollixology.

Then we have a fella like Poots of the DUP who most his own party do not like.
Plus if he finds the earth is 6000 and one day old, he will have a meltdown.

And I am somehow supposed to believe that a UI is going to work with these crowd of yahoo's. On both sides. All the double talk in language, the tricking the ducking and diving. Refusing to use phrases like 'condemn' and even refusing to use the proper names of two states - in order to dilute it and pretend it does not exist.

One side weaponising the Irish language to accentuate difference - SF. Purely in symbolic political game nothing more nothing less. Others from the other side of the fence having a heart attack if they saw a fada.

Yet these are the crowd that are supposed to somehow bring about a prosperous and stable UI? No chance I say. Keep them shower up there for as long as possible with all their guff. 50 years I hope. Because I do not want both of those shower on either side bringing their baggage into the state of The Republic of Ireland more than is necessary.

The only way I can see a peaceful UI sooner is if Scotland and Wales get independence (the honourable way through political means) so NI is left isolated and weakened. It will be done through nothing SF or the likes did only how the British broke their own Union up via Brexit. Maybe 30 years if that happens for a UI.

If the UK does not naturally disintegrate via politics in Scotland/Wales, and a UI been pushed through beforehand I can only see disaster. You can see it with SF posters on this thread. They rarely call a spade a spade and shovel a shovel. I think of those similar on the other side of the fence. Unionist v Republican. Dishonest, disingenuous, myopic.

And then on top of that those hardline lads on both sides. The type you see with '1000 yard stares' on camera during elections. You know the type I mean? Standing behind those who are elected representatives. Those type of 'activists'. I don't want them in the ROI. They are more at 'home' in NI no matter what they wish to call it. While there are those types from both sides still around I can only see disaster in any future UI. I would be happy with a UI in 50 years time. Mainly because I will likely not be alive to see all the hassle that is brought with it.
That will suit me grand thanks.

BonnieSituation

Jesus, what's the tldr?

gormdubhgorm

droidman123 wrote: »

How does calling it "the six counties" make the g.a.a sectarian??

If you assume that most who are Unionist's are protestant and most who are Catholic are Nationalist/Republican there could be argument that it is.

However, in my view given that most people these days do not treat religion seriously or 'go to mass'. I think it is not. Merely the GAA playing with words while contradicting their supposed 'apolitical' stance at the same time.

If you do a quick internet search of

gaa 'northern ireland'

v

gaa 'six counties'

It speaks volumes when you view the sites that show up.

It is silly stuff in way but demonstrates deep seated 'issues' in another way. Living in an alternate reality almost.

Whether such 'issues' boil over with any changing of the 'status quo' in NI is my worry. And the GAA is an example of what is supposed to be a benign organisation a harmless apolitical one in 'peacetime'. What will those who are political and have an 'edge' react from 'other side' ? If they have of a polar opposite mindset and only sees their own reality, if the status quo changes?

Brendan Bendar

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Jesus, what's the tldr?

Walls of text never get read.

Junkyard Tom

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

People in NI and those in the ROI are not the same people as I already said. Different mindsets.

I find this fascinating. Does the mindset change exactly at the border, would you say?

What about people who work in Derry but live in Donegal, does their mindset change depending on their location during that day?

Fionn1952

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Why is it mental? It is not that difficult to accept the reality of the situation one state is called the ROI which you live in. When you go to watch a match where Dublin play away in that other jurisdiction facing Armagh, Tyrone in football or Antrim in Hurling - you are then in another jurisdiction which is called Northern Ireland.

I'll just highlight that you've started your treatise with an incorrect point. There is no state called ROI. You were having a grand aul time referring people to sections of the Constitution earlier. Such a distinguished scholar of the Constitution would hardly make such a rudimentary mistake as getting the name of the state wrong, let alone mixing it up with the name of a soccer team?!

The deep irony of incorrectly naming a state in a rambling rant about the unforgivable nature of the GAA incorrectly naming a state really is a spectacular own goal. Perhaps a moment to reflect would be warranted.

Fionn1952

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I find this fascinating. Does the mindset change exactly at the border, would you say?

What about people who work in Derry but live in Donegal, does their mindset change depending on their location during that day?

Going to have an awful time working out what my uncle was, when his farm was on both sides of the border. His birth was registered on this side, his house was on the Northern side.....he didn't pay much heed to which side he was on throughout his work day.

RobMc59

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'll just highlight that you've started your treatise with an incorrect point. There is no state called ROI. You were having a grand aul time referring people to sections of the Constitution earlier. Such a distinguished scholar of the Constitution would hardly make such a rudimentary mistake as getting the name of the state wrong, let alone mixing it up with the name of a soccer team?!

The deep irony of incorrectly naming a state in a rambling rant about the unforgivable nature of the GAA incorrectly naming a state really is a spectacular own goal. Perhaps a moment to reflect would be warranted.

Despite many republicans (yourself included)insistence on calling NI `the north`there is no such place.

droidman123

RobMc59 wrote: »

Despite many republicans (yourself included)insistence on calling NI `the north`there is no such place.

Correct,it should be the north east really.donegal is in the north of my country,but its not in the occupied counties

lurleen lumpkin

RobMc59 wrote: »

Despite many republicans (yourself included)insistence on calling NI `the north`there is no such place.

Ah yes of course. For a moment there I almost forgot we're the magical island that only has a west, east and south.

RobMc59

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

Ah yes of course. For a moment there I almost forgot we're the magical island that only has a west, east and south.

The correct name which is recognised by all parties,including Ireland is Northern Ireland.

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

Despite many republicans (yourself included)insistence on calling NI `the north`there is no such place.

......that's my point, Rob.

Is it offensive when I say, 'the North'? When Unionists refer to it as Ulster? When the GAA say, 'the six counties' or when NI Soccer fans call it, 'Our Wee Country'?

In all cases, I'd say no. As someone who's actually from there, I'm certainly not going to be lectured on it by the poster I was responding to (or indeed yourself), especially when that poster gets the name of the state he is living in wrong while criticising others for getting the name wrong for a state he is at pains to other and distance himself from.

Kermit.de.frog

I always refer to it as the north. It's the north of Ireland.

lurleen lumpkin

RobMc59 wrote: »

The correct name which is recognised by all parties,including Ireland is Northern Ireland.

I'm in the north of the island of Ireland.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Despite many republicans (yourself included)insistence on calling NI `the north`there is no such place.

Good to see you back to tell us Paddy's what's what. Whatever would we do without you.

Surprised you didn't excitedly rush back sooner to lament how the victims of Ballymurphy were asking for it.

There's still time

BonnieSituation

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

Ah yes of course. For a moment there I almost forgot we're the magical island that only has a west, east and south.

He's probably thinking of Craggy Island.

FrancieBrady

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

I'm in the north of the island of Ireland.

Unionists have spoken for me in Ulster all my life even though I don't live in one of the 6 counties. Has Gormdubh opened a thread lamenting that on my behalf?

Searched there...nope.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Good to see you back to tell us Paddy's what's what. Whatever would we do without you.

Surprised you didn't excitedly rush back sooner to lament how the victims of Ballymurphy were asking for it.

There's still time

The victims of Ballymurphy were all innocent as were many who lost their lives in those dark days.

RobMc59

droidman123 wrote: »

Correct,it should be the north east really.donegal is in the north of my country,but its not in the occupied counties

Looking at a map,Donegal probably has more connection geographically to NI and why is there an area of Monaghan which is basically in NI?

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

Looking at a map,Donegal probably has more connection geographically to NI and why is there an area of Monaghan which is basically in NI?

Because the counties of Ireland didn't come about with Partition in mind.

To simplify, there were essentially 3 proposals.

1) Essentially all of Ulster. Rejected because folk like James Craig felt that this area was more than Unionism could, 'hold'.

2) A four county solution; current NI minus Fermanagh, Tyrone, South Derry, South Armagh and Derry City (I.e. the areas which even then had a Nationalist majority). This one was rejected as the resulting state was thought to be too small to be economically viable.

3) What we ended up with, the actual areas who wanted Partition, along with a few sacrificial lambs like my own county, plucked off to make the place big enough and to hell with what the people there thought.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

The victims of Ballymurphy were all innocent as were many who lost their lives in those dark days.

Cool.

Just like those innocents in Croke Park as well is it?

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Looking at a map,Donegal probably has more connection geographically to NI and why is there an area of Monaghan which is basically in NI?

Weird question to ask for someone who holds themselves out as someone who's knowledgeable of Ireland.

What does "probably has more connection geographically to NI" even mean?

BonnieSituation

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Because the counties of Ireland didn't come about with Partition in mind.

To simplify, there were essentially 3 proposals.

1) Essentially all of Ulster. Rejected because folk like James Craig felt that this area was more than Unionism could, 'hold'.

2) A four county solution; current NI minus Fermanagh, Tyrone, South Derry, South Armagh and Derry City (I.e. the areas which even then had a Nationalist majority). This one was rejected as the resulting state was thought to be too small to be economically viable.

3) What we ended up with, the actual areas who wanted Partition, along with a few sacrificial lambs like my own county, plucked off to make the place big enough and to hell with what the people there thought.

I would have thought Rob knew our history as well as anyone. That's the impression I've gotten from him over the years.

droidman123

RobMc59 wrote: »

Looking at a map,Donegal probably has more connection geographically to NI and why is there an area of Monaghan which is basically in NI?

That makes no sense,donegal is right beside the occupied counties,so obviously it has more connection geographically

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I would have thought Rob knew our history as well as anyone. That's the impression I've gotten from him over the years.

I've probably learned more about Ireland from boards than any other source.Its a shame Irish history doesn't feature in the English curriculum imo.
The topic of the six counties being known by some as Ulster is interesting as is the opinions about the name 'Republic of Ireland '

RobMc59

droidman123 wrote: »

That makes no sense,donegal is right beside the occupied counties,so obviously it has more connection geographically

Your use of the term 'occupied 'implies that there has been an invasion which isn't the case.Ireland left the Union so those counties remain part of the UK-not occupied.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Your use of the term 'occupied 'implies that there has been an invasion which isn't the case.Ireland left the Union so those counties remain part of the UK-not occupied.

Really? This is the "technically, ackshually" road you want to go down?

I think the next stop is telling us Ireland was never unified except under the glorious control of Britannia.

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

Your use of the term 'occupied 'implies that there has been an invasion which isn't the case..

Say what now?

droidman123

RobMc59 wrote: »

Your use of the term 'occupied 'implies that there has been an invasion which isn't the case.Ireland left the Union so those counties remain part of the UK-not occupied.

I am a republican,i call the six counties occupied,and i always will until my island is rid of occupation by a foreign country.

RobMc59

droidman123 wrote: »

I am a republican,i call the six counties occupied,and i always will until my island is rid of occupation by a foreign country.

When you refer to occupation,when do you consider that to have happened?I ask as the only reference i can find regarding any occupation of Ireland was in the 12th century.