How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Yeah_Right · 15-06-2020 1:35pm

The Lions would never have the Union flag, GSTQ or the Queen being presented to them because they don't play any home games. They are a touring side only. The Irish rugby team only have the ROI anthem played at their home games which happen to be in the republic. All their away games have Ireland's Call only. I really don't get the issue of players not singing the national anthem. There are players from all countries who don't sing their natianal anthem before matches and no one gives a ****. I never sang or sing the NZ anthem.

Maybe they don't schedule soccer matches on a Sunday in NI because thats what the fans and players want. If playing on a Sunday affected numbers participating and watching, why would they do it? The Ulster rugby team play a lot of their home matches on Friday nights. I presume that is because they have determined thats when they get the best viewing numbers. Its money not religion that determines scheduling.

downcow · 15-06-2020 1:53pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

The 'IRFU' downcow...think about the name for a wee second.

Rory Best is proud to play for Ireland. I know it kills you and you are bitter about it but northern players and supporters have been peacefully accommodated and the vast majority of rugby players and supporters have no issue with it.

Of course we know belligerents would love to throw a bigotted spanner into those works, but this is not soccer, you have no power to do that.

As I have said before, and few of you guys have not been reached square one. If you honestly believe that Northern Ireland Unionists are happy to play under the Irish tricolour and the soldier's Song then you are much more out of touch than I thought you were. But I think you know rightly

downcow · 15-06-2020 1:54pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

So you want the Irish rugby team to get their ‘asses kicked’ but the 6 county men on the Irish Olympic team to win? It’s a puzzler.

You are easily puzzled when you want to be.
You still have not captured by question on the British and Irish Lions

downcow · 15-06-2020 1:56pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

More inconsistency from downcow - 'he is working for inclusivity in soccer, but is taking bitter little swipes at participants of a sport that has long ago found a way to be inclusive and accommodating'.

You know rightly again that what I am calling for is more inclusivity and accommodation by IRFU. To simply reorganise things a little so that all the players feel proud when the anthems are playing etc

downcow · 15-06-2020 1:59pm

jm08 wrote: »

So tell me, how much did the Northern Ireland taxpayer contribute to the building of the Aviva Stadium? How much funding does Stormont Assembly/British Government contribute financially to the IRFU? Do you realise I hope that without the proceeds of international games being played in the Aviva (or as in the past, Croke Park), that there would be no professional Ulster rugby team.

well common sense would tell anyone that if you break all the agreements made when the teams united by playing all the games in Dublin, then inevitably the big stadium will be in Dublin.
Are you suggesting that had all the games being played in Belfast over the years, that the UK taxpayer could not afforded to help with a stadium.

There was a clear agreement when the two teams united and none of it has been adhered to - which you will be aware included flying the union flag and the Irish tricolour at alternative games

downcow · 15-06-2020 2:00pm

jm08 wrote: »

In fairness, DC, the catholic church played a big part in founding and promoting the GAA (which initially included athletics and other sports as well). Croke Park is named after the Archbishop of Cashel & Emily, Thomas Croke who was a founding member of the GAA in Thurles and its first Patron.

You might find his background interesting, as his mother was of a wealthy protestant family who disowned her when she married a catholic.

While you might find it strange, catholic priests have always been actively involved in promoting the GAA, with priests up to recently even coaching or being selectors for County Teams. The Catholic Church saw playing sports as a good way of keeping young men and women away from the demon drink!

Edit: and that article just displays that the person who wrote it is clueless as he thinks the reason the Bishop of Cashel & Emily is there to represent the catholic church. He is there because he is a successor of one of the founding members and first patron of the GAA.

It is all fine if you want a catholic sport for a catholic people. But if you want to be inclusive then you need to stop placing pitches, having priests in full regalia attend the event, etc

FrancieBrady · 15-06-2020 2:02pm

downcow wrote: »

As I have said before, and few of you guys have not been reached square one. If you honestly believe that Northern Ireland Unionists are happy to play under the Irish tricolour and the soldier's Song then you are much more out of touch than I thought you were. But I think you know rightly

Know what rightly?

I go to Ulster Rugby games and Ireland games...there is little to no problem whatsoever among northern support.

You need to come out of the belligerent bubble you seem to live in.

FrancieBrady · 15-06-2020 2:04pm

downcow wrote: »

You know rightly again that what I am calling for is more inclusivity and accommodation by IRFU. To simply reorganise things a little so that all the players feel proud when the anthems are playing etc

It has been done, long ago. I am not aware of a single IRFU player who has not been proud to pull on the Irish jersey.
I am also not aware of anyone in the north refusing the call up.

downcow · 15-06-2020 2:07pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The Lions would never have the Union flag, GSTQ or the Queen being presented to them because they don't play any home games. They are a touring side only. The Irish rugby team only have the ROI anthem played at their home games which happen to be in the republic. All their away games have Ireland's Call only. I really don't get the issue of players not singing the national anthem. There are players from all countries who don't sing their natianal anthem before matches and no one gives a ****. I never sang or sing the NZ anthem.
.

Their home games do not HAPPEN to be in the Republic. A decision was taken to break with an agreement to play 50% of the games in Belfast. I guess you know why that is. Because the agreement also said that when games were played in Belfast the union flag will be flown and GSTQ would be played.
Now had they adhered to the agreement (which actually I think is nonsensical) you would see some screaming on here about the situation.

This is not about players not singing the national anthem. This is about players having an anthem played supposedly for them which is an anathema to them. It's just when you look down the line and you find everyone singing the national anthem except that Northern Ireland players that it is a bit stark.
Now unlike my friends on here, I am not in denial, I see exactly the same situation when Northern Ireland football team line up to play and the Catholics don't sing the anthem.
This is why I say some of the guys on here have not even reached square one, as they don't even recognise there is an issue

downcow · 15-06-2020 2:10pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Know what rightly?

I go to Ulster Rugby games and Ireland games...there is little to no problem whatsoever among northern support.

You need to come out of the belligerent bubble you seem to live in.

..... And there is no problem whatsoever among Protestant support at GAA games, or for that matter among Catholics support when the anthem is being played at Northern Ireland games

You really have to learn how to have some empathy for those around you who do not believe exactly the same as you or have the same belongings

downcow · 15-06-2020 2:21pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The Lions would never have the Union flag, GSTQ or the Queen being presented to them because they don't play any home games. They are a touring side only. The Irish rugby team only have the ROI anthem played at their home games which happen to be in the republic. All their away games have Ireland's Call only. I really don't get the issue of players not singing the national anthem. There are players from all countries who don't sing their natianal anthem before matches and no one gives a ****. I never sang or sing the NZ anthem.

Maybe they don't schedule soccer matches on a Sunday in NI because thats what the fans and players want. If playing on a Sunday affected numbers participating and watching, why would they do it? The Ulster rugby team play a lot of their home matches on Friday nights. I presume that is because they have determined thats when they get the best viewing numbers. Its money not religion that determines scheduling.

I think your comments have integrity so let me try to explain how the issue feels for someone from Northern Ireland.
You say you are from New Zealand. Can I ask you to imagine a scenario that is probably quite difficult. Can you imagine that the two islands of New Zealand have two different flags, different anthems, and that there has been a fair degree of conflict and animosity about who owns what island, and you don't like the anthem or flag of the other as it raises too many issues for you.

Now if you are from the northern island and you accepted that the two islands should join together with one rugby team, and that an agreement is drawn up that the games would be played time about on each island, and when on that island, will use that islands flag and anthem.

Let's say the southern island is the bigger and has more votes in this new united rugby team. They decide, let's scrap the agreement, let's just play all the games on our island, and use our flag and our anthem at every game.

Tell me honestly how you would feel, and indeed how you would feel when you were told that you were being belligerent by raising the issue.

Oh, I almost forgot. They give you the huge concession of writing a piece of music for both islands which they will play instead of the southern island anthem at away games.
Unfortunately for those who love rugby on the northern island, their only route to international rugby is through this joint team

FrancieBrady · 15-06-2020 2:22pm

downcow wrote: »

..... And there is no problem whatsoever among Protestant support at GAA games, or for that matter among Catholics support when the anthem is being played at Northern Ireland games

You really have to learn how to have some empathy for those around you who do not believe exactly the same as you or have the same belongings

People who have an issue with the anthem are not 'around me' or anyone else.

The 'problem' is most likely from non supporters, a hardcore of belligerents who cannot see the accommodation made and who are bitter that those playing and supporting are happy with it.
I'm sure Jim McAlister who made the biggest noise about playing on a Sunday is not the first in the queue to actually go to a game...soccer in northern Ireland lets the belligerents have a say, that is their problem.

FrancieBrady · 15-06-2020 2:24pm

downcow wrote: »

I think your comments have integrity so let me try to explain how the issue feels for someone from Northern Ireland.
You say you are from New Zealand. Can I ask you to imagine a scenario that is probably quite difficult. Can you imagine that the two islands of New Zealand have two different flags, different anthems, and that there has been a fair degree of conflict and animosity about who owns what island, and you don't like the anthem or flag of the other as it raises too many issues for you.

Now if you are from the northern island and you accepted that the two islands should join together with one rugby team, and that an agreement is drawn up that the games would be played time about on each island, and when on that island, will use that islands flag and anthem.

Let's say the southern island is the bigger and has more votes in this new united rugby team. They decide, let's scrap the agreement, let's just play all the games on our island, and use our flag and our anthem at every game.

Tell me honestly how you would feel, and indeed how you would feel when you were told that you were being belligerent by raising the issue.

Oh, I almost forgot. They give you the huge concession of writing a piece of music for both islands which they will play instead of the southern island anthem at away games.
Unfortunately for those who love rugby on the northern island, their only route to international rugby is through this joint team

GSTQ is England's anthem last time I looked.

downcow · 15-06-2020 2:25pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

People who have an issue with the anthem are not 'around me' or anyone else.

The 'problem' is most likely from non supporters, a hardcore of belligerents who cannot see the accommodation made and who are bitter that those playing and supporting are happy with it.
I'm sure Jim McAlister who made the biggest noise about playing on a Sunday is not the first in the queue to actually go to a game...soccer in northern Ireland lets the belligerents have a say, that is their problem.

Francie, I don't think you will ever have any empathy with northern Unionists. That's quite sad

downcow · 15-06-2020 2:27pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

GSTQ is England's anthem last time I looked.

I think you need to go away and do your homework Francie. It is every bit as much my anthem as it is anyone in England.

It is the UK anthem - not the English anthem. And I actually feel quite strongly that none of the four nations should be allowed to play it at any sporting events that do not include the whole nation of the UK

munsterlegend · 15-06-2020 2:37pm

downcow wrote: »

You are easily puzzled when you want to be.
You still have not captured by question on the British and Irish Lions

Your position is completely contradictory. If anything I would expect you’d want the rugby lads to win as the Ireland Olympic team has the tricolour and Amhrán na bhfiann. Back to you.

I’d have no problem with the lions playing both the British and Irish anthems and Lizzie and Michael d wheeled out. That the lions still exist in the professional game is surprising but provides good money to the Southern Hemisphere teams though.

FrancieBrady · 15-06-2020 2:38pm

downcow wrote: »

I think you need to go away and do your homework Francie. It is every bit as much my anthem as it is anyone in England.

It is the UK anthem - not the English anthem. And I actually feel quite strongly that none of the four nations should be allowed to play it at any sporting events that do not include the whole nation of the UK

There you have it...the team is 'Ireland', not the UK. An accommodation therefore had to be reached. And it was, and it works.
There was no welching on an agreement to play alternatively in Belfast and Dublin...the games in Belfast in 1953 were losing the IRFU 3000 pounds a game, so a decision was taken to move the games to Dublin and invest 100,000 in Landsdowne Rd.

If Unionist players have an issue with the accommodation they have the same rights as the Connacht players who took a stand in the same year 1953 and refused to stand for GSTQ.

But they don't do they...it isn't an issue though is it? Except maybe for some sideline belligerents and political agitators.

jm08 · 15-06-2020 3:00pm

downcow wrote: »

well common sense would tell anyone that if you break all the agreements made when the teams united by playing all the games in Dublin, then inevitably the big stadium will be in Dublin.
Are you suggesting that had all the games being played in Belfast over the years, that the UK taxpayer could not afforded to help with a stadium.

There was a clear agreement when the two teams united and none of it has been adhered to - which you will be aware included flying the union flag and the Irish tricolour at alternative games

One of the reasons why the IRFU didn't divide was because the bigger stadium and control was based in Dublin, not Belfast like the football.

Guaranteed if Belfast had Lansdowne Road in Belfast and the IRFU HQ, the IRFU would be split. The decision was made in the 1950s that all games would be played in Dublin because of the greater capacity of Lansdowne Road. It was all about where the most money could be generated, not by politics. Its money that held the IRFU together.

I am suggesting that if games were continued to be played in Belfast and, the IRFU would never have been in the position to afford a stadium anywhere. The capacity of Lansdowne Road was 3 or 4 times Ravenhill and apart from anything else was unlikely to attract people from place like Cork or Limerick because there was no direct rail access to Belfast and the roads were poor.

The reality is that the Irish taxpayer funds the IRFU fairly substantially (with benefit to Ulster/NI rugby from that) and playing the Irish anthem and flying the flag is an acknowlegement of that. What has the Queen or the British taxpayer done for Irish rugby?

jm08 · 15-06-2020 3:17pm

downcow wrote: »

I think your comments have integrity so let me try to explain how the issue feels for someone from Northern Ireland.
You say you are from New Zealand. Can I ask you to imagine a scenario that is probably quite difficult. Can you imagine that the two islands of New Zealand have two different flags, different anthems, and that there has been a fair degree of conflict and animosity about who owns what island, and you don't like the anthem or flag of the other as it raises too many issues for you.

Now if you are from the northern island and you accepted that the two islands should join together with one rugby team, and that an agreement is drawn up that the games would be played time about on each island, and when on that island, will use that islands flag and anthem.

Let's say the southern island is the bigger and has more votes in this new united rugby team. They decide, let's scrap the agreement, let's just play all the games on our island, and use our flag and our anthem at every game.

Tell me honestly how you would feel, and indeed how you would feel when you were told that you were being belligerent by raising the issue.

Oh, I almost forgot. They give you the huge concession of writing a piece of music for both islands which they will play instead of the southern island anthem at away games.
Unfortunately for those who love rugby on the northern island, their only route to international rugby is through this joint team

Except DC, thats not what happened. The IRFU was run by Ulster people like Syd Miller. Its only in recent years that the Irish team has not been dominated by Ulster players.

DC, as regards New Zealand - did you know that the northern part of the North Island was called New Ulster and the South Island and south part of North Island were New Munster

They solved it by uniting the lot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Ulster_Province

Yeah_Right · 15-06-2020 3:27pm

downcow wrote: »

I think your comments have integrity so let me try to explain how the issue feels for someone from Northern Ireland.
You say you are from New Zealand. Can I ask you to imagine a scenario that is probably quite difficult. Can you imagine that the two islands of New Zealand have two different flags, different anthems, and that there has been a fair degree of conflict and animosity about who owns what island, and you don't like the anthem or flag of the other as it raises too many issues for you.

Now if you are from the northern island and you accepted that the two islands should join together with one rugby team, and that an agreement is drawn up that the games would be played time about on each island, and when on that island, will use that islands flag and anthem.

Let's say the southern island is the bigger and has more votes in this new united rugby team. They decide, let's scrap the agreement, let's just play all the games on our island, and use our flag and our anthem at every game.

Tell me honestly how you would feel, and indeed how you would feel when you were told that you were being belligerent by raising the issue.

Oh, I almost forgot. They give you the huge concession of writing a piece of music for both islands which they will play instead of the southern island anthem at away games.
Unfortunately for those who love rugby on the northern island, their only route to international rugby is through this joint team

Thats the thing, I can only imagine it. I can't actually really understand it as I didn't live through it. I am observed it on the news and studied it in history dispassionately. I have the view of an outsider (who lives in Dublin) and I don't get the anger/hatred/sectarianism as it is just nonsensical to me. I try to understand and educate myself on it and imagine how I'd feel but it is hard to wrap my head around it. The closest I can come to it was the referendum to change the NZ flag (I voted for change) and if there was a vote to change the anthem (I'd vote change) but its not a huge issue for me.

I'll be honest, the only place I've heard of an agreement to split home matches between Belfast and Dublin was here on Boards.ie. In my lifetime, Ireland played in Landsdowne or temporarily in Croke Park so I can't really comment on the agreement because I know nothing about it. As a rugby fan, I think the Irish team should spread their home games around the island but I understand why they don't from a financial point of view.

As for Ireland's Call, I think its a much better option than when they used the Rose of Tralee as a national anthem

RobMc59 · 15-06-2020 3:28pm

jm08 wrote: »

One of the reasons why the IRFU didn't divide was because the bigger stadium and control was based in Dublin, not Belfast like the football.

Guaranteed if Belfast had Lansdowne Road in Belfast and the IRFU HQ, the IRFU would be split. The decision was made in the 1950s that all games would be played in Dublin because of the greater capacity of Lansdowne Road. It was all about where the most money could be generated, not by politics. Its money that held the IRFU together.

I am suggesting that if games were continued to be played in Belfast and, the IRFU would never have been in the position to afford a stadium anywhere. The capacity of Lansdowne Road was 3 or 4 times Ravenhill and apart from anything else was unlikely to attract people from place like Cork or Limerick because there was no direct rail access to Belfast and the roads were poor.

The reality is that the Irish taxpayer funds the IRFU fairly substantially (with benefit to Ulster/NI rugby from that) and playing the Irish anthem and flying the flag is an acknowlegement of that. What has the Queen or the British taxpayer done for Irish rugby?

Remember where rugby and football as we know it originates from.Aviva and its various offshoots are British owned so perhaps Britain has done quite a bit more for sport in Ireland than you are aware of.

munsterlegend · 15-06-2020 3:45pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Remember where rugby and football as we know it originates from.Aviva and its various offshoots are British owned so perhaps Britain has done quite a bit more for sport in Ireland than you are aware of.

Sponsoring a stadium would hardly keep a sport afloat. How far back do we go for thanks? The Egyptians for paper? The Chinese for football? Association football and rugby unions were created when Ireland was part of the uK so we’d be thanking ourselves which is never good.

FrancieBrady · 15-06-2020 3:47pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Remember where rugby and football as we know it originates from.Aviva and its various offshoots are British owned so perhaps Britain has done quite a bit more for sport in Ireland than you are aware of.

They make more than enough in their Irish subsidiary to put something back...the days of repatriating the spoils to old Blighty are over Rob.

jm08 · 15-06-2020 3:47pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Remember where rugby and football as we know it originates from.Aviva and its various offshoots are British owned so perhaps Britain has done quite a bit more for sport in Ireland than you are aware of.

So, should be we play Swing Low or GSTQ to acknowledge that rugby and football are English sports?

Aviva has mixed heritage and is a combination of a lot of companies. Check below for full information, including the bit how they were fined for screwing their Irish customers. The insurance industry's name are mud in Ireland. They had to do something to improve their image.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviva_Group_Ireland

BonnieSituation · 15-06-2020 4:23pm

downcow wrote: »

I actually agree with you. Prod majority sport avoids Sunday’s with no consideration that catholics enjoy Sunday sport And gaa is focused on Sunday’s with no consideration that that prevents a significant number of prods from participating.
Crazy country

This is just clearly rubbish.

BonnieSituation · 15-06-2020 4:27pm

eire4 wrote: »

There is no chance IMHO that Linfield coming out with this away top that just happens to have an orange sash on it and is in the colours of the UVF was a coincidence. Linfield have a long history with a core support base that is racist and this jersey is IMHO very much pandering to that core racist support base of theirs.

Umbro have now distanced themselves from it and apologised for any offence caused.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0615/1147554-umbro-say-they-will-not-promote-linfields-new-away-kit/

And sure, it was completely coincidental. I mean, no one at Linfield saw the connection before approval and manufacture. Gas.

BonnieSituation · 15-06-2020 4:31pm

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think either does it to stop the other. But that’s the impact of the gaa decision. I’m not saying they are wrong. That’s just the impact.
Actually I imagine if football was moved to Sunday there would be complaints from gaa about taking their players and supporters

You imagine that the average GAA fan in the North are that petty?

This is an organisation that changed the timing of a Dublin match in 2016 to avoid clashing with Ireland v France at the Euros? And not only that out that soccer match on the big screen in Croke Park that day as well.

Yeah, the GAA are the ones here who will be up in arms clashing with the Irish League.

Seems funny they never complained about rugby or League of Ireland being played on Sundays before, but would start up moaning when the Irish League joins the 20th century? Give over.

jm08 · 15-06-2020 4:32pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Thats the thing, I can only imagine it. I can't actually really understand it as I didn't live through it. I am observed it on the news and studied it in history dispassionately. I have the view of an outsider (who lives in Dublin) and I don't get the anger/hatred/sectarianism as it is just nonsensical to me. I try to understand and educate myself on it and imagine how I'd feel but it is hard to wrap my head around it.

If you heard the spewing of hate of Ian Paisley Snr. in his early years, you would understand where it all comes from.

This documentary made by Radharc in 1964 prior to it all kicking off will give you a little insight into the troubles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjhqP90uaro

RobMc59 · 15-06-2020 4:34pm

jm08 wrote: »

So, should be we play Swing Low or GSTQ to acknowledge that rugby and football are English sports?

Aviva has mixed heritage and is a combination of a lot of companies. Check below for full information, including the bit how they were fined for screwing their Irish customers. The insurance industry's name are mud in Ireland. They had to do something to improve their image.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviva_Group_Ireland

I'm not suggesting you should play British or English anthems, I was merely pointing out that both sports as we know them are British and Aviva is British in reply to your 'what has Britain done for Irish sport' comment earlier.

BonnieSituation · 15-06-2020 4:37pm

downcow wrote: »

That is a very sad comment. I started supporting Chelsea age 6 and I find your implication pathetic.
I would not label friends who are connected to my local gaa club racist just because it is has displayed extreme racism.
Racism is alive and well in football, gaa, rugby etc. You can burry hour head but that is why gaa is not becoming more inclusive. Most sports accept they have a problem and are working on it.
Gaa (and people with your views) think gaa is neither sectarian or racist. The gaa has not even reached square one on issues of diversity

So Chelsea aren't an infamously racist club because you supported since you were 6?

FWIW my dad has been supporting them since the 60s as is his way to being a contrarian shít in a house full of Man U and Everton fans and I relish highlighting their bigotry to annoy him.

No one is calling you a racist for supporting Chelsea, but it's disingenuous to get offended at them being called a racist club. They are famous for it.

I'm a Shelbourne fan as it happens for any balance.

How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

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