How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How do you think it is 'becoming the general consensus in NI'? Because it is ignored or trivialised?

If this was a 'coincidence' then you have to look at the history to see has this person/organisation engaged in sectarianism before. And in this case, the public and the shirt sponsors have reached a conclusion.

I believe the people of NI are becoming less interested in 'labels' and sectarian views and as I've said before,the covid crisis has actually brought it home to the people of NI the devolved government works well giving them a high degree of autonomy.
Regarding the Linfield kit,the publicity has resulted in it selling out online according to sky news-I wonder if umbro will donate the profits to a worthy cause?-very doubtful.

jm08

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I've had a huge interest in vexillology and heraldry since I was a kid and while it is laudable to have simple symbols to represent your people that are "easy for a child to draw", the priority is that the symbols have a value and a weight to the groupings that they represent and in the Irish case the Four Provinces flag easily achieves this.

Symbolism > that simplicity in this case for me.

I try to imagine myself standing in Croker or Lansdowne and seeing the Tricolour flying and replacing that image with the FPF and tbh, I would have no issue there.

In fact, despite its provenance, I have a soft spot for the St Patrick's Saltire also.

If you're replacing a symbol held dear, you need to make sure that you don't alienate the people you're trying to represent.

So whats the symbolism of the provincial flags that you hold dear? What does it represent?

Is there a national flag that has more than 2 colours (+ white). There is a reason why you don't see too many combined provincial flags around!

edit: as well as that, the 4 provincial flags don't work in a small size for example for crests on jerseys etc. It would just be a blob.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I believe the people of NI are becoming less interested in 'labels' and sectarian views and as I've said before,the covid crisis has actually brought it home to the people of NI the devolved government works well giving them a high degree of autonomy.
Regarding the Linfield kit,the publicity has resulted in it selling out online according to sky news-I wonder if umbro will donate the profits to a worthy cause?-very doubtful.

You are portraying the kit at the centre of a sectarian controversy selling out to be 'good thing'?

I would think that the Covid crisis has shown everybody (everyone sensible that is) on this island that two autonomous regions on the one island can present a health threat if one diverges from the other, as nearly happened.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Why do people so often quote my question and the answer an entirely different question?

If you have something to say then that’s fine but why quote me?

You were questioning whether Ireland had benefited from slavery. I'm pointing out that Ireland was always against slavery and Daniel O'Connell MP (one of the most revered people in Ireland with nearly every main street in Irish towns called after him) used his influence to abolish it in Westminister. (He also championed the equal rights for jews). It cost him money and influence for Ireland in the US to do so, but he continued to do it.

Shefwedfan

downcow wrote: »

Why do people so often quote my question and the answer an entirely different question?

If you have something to say then that’s fine but why quote me?

It's called deflect....


Ask a question on SF. Get an answer on DUP or FG/FF


It is standard by a number of posters on here..


Good example, comment on the amount of Irish who have more interest in UK sports than Irish sports, get an answer about you



If they dont like the answer they will have to give they answer a completely different question.

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It's called deflect....


Ask a question on SF. Get an answer on DUP or FG/FF


It is standard by a number of posters on here..


Good example, comment on the amount of Irish who have more interest in UK sports than Irish sports, get an answer about you



If they dont like the answer they will have to give they answer a completely different question.

What was your question about UK and Irish sport?

munsterlegend

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It's called deflect....


Ask a question on SF. Get an answer on DUP or FG/FF


It is standard by a number of posters on here..


Good example, comment on the amount of Irish who have more interest in UK sports than Irish sports, get an answer about you



If they dont like the answer they will have to give they answer a completely different question.

Biggest attended event in Ireland every year is gaa. A lot of people go to rugby and soccer too though soccer going through a lean period.

It’s nonsense a lot of people support English clubs over LOI clubs but happens all over the world. Most people have no connection at all with the clubs I.e. be different if had lived there or something.

FrancieBrady

munsterlegend wrote: »

Biggest attended event in Ireland every year is gaa. A lot of people go to rugby and soccer too though soccer going through a lean period.

It’s nonsense a lot of people support English clubs over LOI clubs but happens all over the world. Most people have no connection at all with the clubs I.e. be different if had lived there or something.

There wasn't near the levels of interest in English football until gazillions was sunk into it with the direct intention of attracting international interest.
I think Man U make more money from jersey sales in Japan than they do in gate receipts or something mega bucks like that.

the premiership clubs are mostly owned internationally now and there are scant enough players from the UK even playing in it.

It's designed to appeal outside the UK and does...big fecking deal

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

You were questioning whether Ireland had benefited from slavery. I'm pointing out that Ireland was always against slavery and Daniel O'Connell MP (one of the most revered people in Ireland with nearly every main street in Irish towns called after him) used his influence to abolish it in Westminister. (He also championed the equal rights for jews). It cost him money and influence for Ireland in the US to do so, but he continued to do it.

No I didn’t. I Asked was there slaves brought to Ireland ? And I mean historically, not the current ones being brought in containers.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

No I didn’t. I Asked was there slaves brought to Ireland ? And I mean historically, not the current ones being brought in containers.

Way back yes - St. Patrick was a slave. But not in the last 600-700 years. However, plenty of Irish where shipped off to the colonies as slaves (including women as sex slaves).

Yeah_Right

jm08 wrote: »

So whats the symbolism of the provincial flags that you hold dear? What does it represent?

Is there a national flag that has more than 2 colours (+ white). There is a reason why you don't see too many combined provincial flags around!

Off the top of my head with zero research; Germany, Belguim, South Africa, Brazil, at least one of the Baltic states, Cameroon, Portugal, Namibia.

Edit : Just remembered Jamaica and Romania as well.

jm08

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Off the top of my head with zero research; Germany, Belguim, South Africa, Brazil, at least one of the Baltic states, Cameroon, Portugal, Namibia.

Edit : Just remembered Jamaica and Romania as well.

OK - 3 colours. The IRFU flag with the 4 provinces has about 10 colours and of course the symbols on it disintegrate into a blob when reduced in size.

Yeah_Right

jm08 wrote: »

OK - 3 colours. The IRFU flag with the 4 provinces has about 10 colours and of course the symbols on it disintegrate into a blob when reduced in size.

I agree. One "coat of arms" on a flag is fine but 4 wouldn't work.

The obvious answer is to replicate Canada's except green instead of red and a shamrock instead of a maple leaf.

jm08

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I agree. One "coat of arms" on a flag is fine but 4 wouldn't work.

The obvious answer is to replicate Canada's except green instead of red and a shamrock instead of a maple leaf.

Shamrock is how St. Patrick explained the Holy Trinity, so maybe not such a good idea in a secular state.


Personally, I'd go for the Harp as a nod to our own history and as part of the United Kingdom of GB & Ireland on a green background (basically, the Presidential Standard, except in green, not blue).

Whatever its origins, the harp was adopted as the symbol of the new Kingdom of Ireland, established by Henry VIII, in 1541. A document in the Office of the Ulster King of Arms, from either the late reign of Henry VIII or the early reign his son of Edward VI, states that they were the arms of the kingdom of Ireland.[7] The arms were incorporated into the unified Royal Coats of Arms of England, Ireland and Scotland upon the Union of the Crowns of the three kingdoms in 1603. Upon the secession of the Irish Free State from the United Kingdom in 1922, the harp was taken as the emblem of the independent Irish state.

Still think the tricolour is most appropriate in its symbolism. From an article in the Guardian written by a young unionist who got an Irish passport 4 years ago!

The Irish tricolour could also be reimagined. For nationalists, it is the flag hoisted above Dublin’s general post office in 1916’s Easter Rising. In a united Ireland, it can regain its original meaning. Green, white and orange: peace between Catholics and Protestants.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/16/ireland-unite-reclaim-common-past-build-shared-future

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Way back yes - St. Patrick was a slave. But not in the last 600-700 years. However, plenty of Irish where shipped off to the colonies as slaves (including women as sex slaves).

That took a while. So yes is the answer.
It took so long that I forget why I was asking you

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

Shamrock is how St. Patrick explained the Holy Trinity, so maybe not such a good idea in a secular state.


Personally, I'd go for the Harp as a nod to our own history and as part of the United Kingdom of GB & Ireland on a green background (basically, the Presidential Standard, except in green, not blue).





Still think the tricolour is most appropriate in its symbolism. From an article in the Guardian written by a young unionist who got an Irish passport 4 years ago!





https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/16/ireland-unite-reclaim-common-past-build-shared-future

A green rectangle should keep everyone happy. Then you can project/imagine/dream any symbol or meaning on to it that you wish. An Anthem without lyrics as well.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A green rectangle should keep everyone happy. Then you can project/imagine/dream any symbol or meaning on to it that you wish. An Anthem without lyrics as well.

Anyone wish to clarify, is this new flag and anthem for Northern Ireland or for IRFU?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Anyone wish to clarify, is this new flag and anthem for Northern Ireland or for IRFU?

For a UI.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

For a UI.

Ah, it's funny where people went to on that discussion. It began as a discussion about something that is real i.e. the IRFU flag and anthem. I just think it is very interesting rather than discuss solving an actual problem, people head off to fantasy hypothetical land designing flag for a country that doesn't even exist. Of course I understand that that is much easier than dealing with the real issues

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Ah, it's funny where people went to on that discussion. It began as a discussion about something that is real i.e. the IRFU flag and anthem. I just think it is very interesting rather than discuss solving an actual problem, people head off to fantasy hypothetical land designing flag for a country that doesn't even exist. Of course I understand that that is much easier than dealing with the real issues

You were asked what you want on an NI flag, you still haven't addressed that.

The rest of us are doing something else.

I am not aware of a requirement or request to change the IRFU flags or anthem ..can you link to a request/demand?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You were asked what you want on an NI flag, you still haven't addressed that.

The rest of us are doing something else.

I am not aware of a requirement or request to change the IRFU flags or anthem ..can you link to a request/demand?

Didn't know that that was a criteria for discussion. I also didn't know that there was a request/demand to change the ROI flag, but I do think you guys should keep tossing about and come up with something as the tricolour is both boring and has very nasty associations. But hey, you guys do with your flag what you wish. You wouldn't want my advice lol

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Didn't know that that was a criteria for discussion. I also didn't know that there was a request/demand to change the ROI flag, but I do think you guys should keep tossing about and come up with something as the tricolour is both boring and has very nasty associations. But hey, you guys do with your flag what you wish. You wouldn't want my advice lol

So the 'moderate' runs away from a request where he could easily show how moderate he is...again.

There is an expectation among us that the flag will need changing come a UI, that is what we are discussing.

The only people who want to change the IRFU flag are yourself and nameless friends of yours...you are free to chat to them about it.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are portraying the kit at the centre of a sectarian controversy selling out to be 'good thing'?

I would think that the Covid crisis has shown everybody (everyone sensible that is) on this island that two autonomous regions on the one island can present a health threat if one diverges from the other, as nearly happened.

NI paddled their own canoe and has done a pretty good job,certainly better than the rest of us(and that includes Ireland)despite the incessant moaning of Michelle O`Neill on the British side of the border telling everyone how it should be done and Mary Lou on the Irish side doing exactly the same.
Regarding the kit,like Downcow I have no interest in Linfield and if the kit has sold out that`s probably thanks to the publicity received.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

That took a while. So yes is the answer.
It took so long that I forget why I was asking you

This is what you asked:

Originally Posted by downcow
Was Ireland involved in the slave trade? Did Ireland take slaves for their benefit? Were there even slaves in Ireland?
you painting this picture about being squeaky clean. More denial

Well actually, it was the Vikings who were the slave traders. And then of course the English and Welsh used sell their own kids. The biggest market for slaves was England and that trade fell apart when William the Conqueror banned slavery in the Kingdom of England.

Prior to that under Brehon Law, there was a kind of Caste system, but you could move up the ranks if you were not a criminal.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So the 'moderate' runs away from a request where he could easily show how moderate he is...again.

There is an expectation among us that the flag will need changing come a UI, that is what we are discussing.

The only people who want to change the IRFU flag are yourself and nameless friends of yours...you are free to chat to them about it.

I find it humorous that a few of you on here have christened me ‘the moderate’. Certainly not a tag I would give myself - having said that, given some of the views expressed here maybe it does fit lol ðŸ˜

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

This is what you asked:



Well actually, it was the Vikings who were the slave traders. And then of course the English and Welsh used sell their own kids. The biggest market for slaves was England and that trade fell apart when William the Conqueror banned slavery in the Kingdom of England.

Prior to that under Brehon Law, there was a kind of Caste system, but you could move up the ranks if you were not a criminal.

So are you saying those living in Ireland did not send raiding parties to Briton to grab slaves?
That contradicts what you said a few posts ago

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

NI paddled their own canoe and has done a pretty good job,certainly better than the rest of us(and that includes Ireland)despite the incessant moaning of Michelle O`Neill on the British side of the border telling everyone how it should be done and Mary Lou on the Irish side doing exactly the same.
Regarding the kit,like Downcow I have no interest in Linfield and if the kit has sold out that`s probably thanks to the publicity received.

'Incessant moaning' good man Rob...not like you to exaggerate. Remember Arlene (and downcow here) were going on about sticking with Boris's herd immunity strategy?

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Anyone wish to clarify, is this new flag and anthem for Northern Ireland or for IRFU?

I struggle to believe your new found interest in soccer and flags etc has nothing to do with today being the 26th anniversary of loughlinisland massacre



Which curiously is in co down....il say no more on risk of being banned

eire4

jm08 wrote: »

Not a hope, too many colours, too fussy and expensive to reproduce. It would only be a compromise. You need something better than that. A child should easily be able to draw a recognisable flag and any symbols on it should be simple.

Well I will take it that your not so partial to the 4 provinces flag which is fine. Each to their own. Personally I have always liked the 4 provinces flag a lot and in fact I am flying one at the front of my house as I type this right now.

Not sure why your saying having it as our national flag after reunification would be a compromise. Sure that is what the tricolour is. Do not see why having a flag that represents all 4 green fields so to speak is a bad thing. Personally I think it is a good thing.

As for its colours the symbols etc I think IMHO that is part of what would make it great. It would be a very different unique flag that would stand out and of course most importantly it represents very well the whole country.

Clearly you do not like and or agree with my views and fondness for the 4 provinces flag as a potential new flag after reunification and that is perfectly fine.

eire4

downcow wrote: »

Are you guys thinking junkyard means a sporting anthem and flag for the irfu team rather than NI anthem/flag?
If that’s the case all my previous points apply. I would be very keen and very happy to cooperate on such. I actually think the vast major of Unionists would be very keen.
Of course I guess that realisation will put junkyard off the idea as he usually works on the precept that if unionists want it he must oppose it

I was very clear. I was and am in favour of the 4 provinces flag replacing the current tricolour after reunification. Nothing remotely opaque about that.

Nice try at twisting that very clear and unambiguous statement into something different. Just the kind of disingenuous behaviour by yourself which precludes me from having anything other then enormous skepticism in regards to what you posit in your posts generally and also why I am disinclined to engage with you.