How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

eire4

jm08 wrote: »

So whats the symbolism of the provincial flags that you hold dear? What does it represent?

Is there a national flag that has more than 2 colours (+ white). There is a reason why you don't see too many combined provincial flags around!

edit: as well as that, the 4 provincial flags don't work in a small size for example for crests on jerseys etc. It would just be a blob.

Well again you do not like the 4 provincial flag as a potential flag for Ireland after reunification that is your opinion and is fine. For myself personally I do like the 4 provinces flag and would happily see it as the Ireland flag after reunification.
However having more then 2 colours and not including white and symbols on jerseys is not unusual. Kenya, Uganda, Ethiopia, South Africa, Zambia, Central African Republic, Comoros, Zimbabwe, South Sudan, Libya, Mozambique, Mauritius, Seychelles, Armenia, Germany, Lithuania, Azerbaijan, Jordan, Andorra, Romania, Bolivia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Antigua and Barbuda, Dominica, Grenada, Jamaica, St Kitts and Nevis, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka etc. By no means an exhaustive list but clearly many countries have more then 2 colours not counting white and often symbols as well in their national flags.

As for its symbolism it represents all 4 green fields of Ireland so to speak beautifully IMHO.

As for using the 4 provinces flag on sporting jerseys well not sure there are very many national sporting bodies in Ireland that do not use the Shamrock as the focal point of their national teams crest. Personally I am very fond of and love to see that Shamrock on the jersey's of our sporting teams and individuals and see no reason for that to change.

eire4

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I agree. One "coat of arms" on a flag is fine but 4 wouldn't work.

The obvious answer is to replicate Canada's except green instead of red and a shamrock instead of a maple leaf.

Personally I like the 4 provincial flag and that would get my vote for Irelands flag after reunification but that is a decent suggestion as well. Maybe the symbol in the middle could be the Harp instead of the Shamrock.

eire4

jm08 wrote: »

OK - 3 colours. The IRFU flag with the 4 provinces has about 10 colours and of course the symbols on it disintegrate into a blob when reduced in size.

Ahh just seeing that addition and I would put forward the following flags having more than 3 colours and some also having symbols on their national flags:

South Africa, Turkmenistan, St Pierre and Miquelon, Central African Republic, Dominica, Zimbabwe, Seychelles, Comoros, Namibia, Grenada, Antigua and Barbuda, Mauritius, Mozambique, St Kitts and Nevis, St Vincent and the Grenadines, Sao Tome and Principe, South Sudan, Sri Lanka, Tanzania, Uganda, Vanuatu, Zambia etc.

Hamsterchops

If there was to be a new "all island flag" surely there would need to be a nod to Unionism in the form of a Unionist symbol, I'm thinking of the St Patrick saltire or the George Cross, either of which could be installed in such a way as not to detract from the main message of an all Ireland flag, which may be dominated by the harp or provences? stick in a splash of Orange & Green also, to keep the die hards happy

downcow

Deleted User wrote: »

I struggle to believe your new found interest in soccer and flags etc has nothing to do with today being the 26th anniversary of loughlinisland massacre



Which curiously is in co down....il say no more on risk of being banned

I have absolutely no idea what you're getting at.
Maybe another coincidence that you're going to offer 'magic beans' as evidence.
I have found if you be honest and straight you don't need to fear being banned.

I am sure I disagree with you on loughinisland.
but we have been round and round in circles on this for people have told me to watch 'no stone unturned' as there is clear evidence of collusion. I have asked people here to just give me a snippet or two of what collusion occurred. And guess what, they have gone to ground. Not one single example from the film demonstrating collusion

downcow

eire4 wrote: »

I was very clear. I was and am in favour of the 4 provinces flag replacing the current tricolour after reunification. Nothing remotely opaque about that.

Nice try at twisting that very clear and unambiguous statement into something different. Just the kind of disingenuous behaviour by yourself which precludes me from having anything other then enormous skepticism in regards to what you posit in your posts generally and also why I am disinclined to engage with you.

Well, before you get too high and mighty, I think you should read back through the posts and you will find that this discussion WAS about the issues with the IRFU flag and anthem.
I have no problem with you discussing creating a flag and anthem for a hypothetical country that you think may exist some day. But I prefer you did not duck the original issue by trying to portray me as twisting

downcow

Deleted User wrote: »

I struggle to believe your new found interest in soccer and flags etc has nothing to do with today being the 26th anniversary of loughlinisland massacre



Which curiously is in co down....il say no more on risk of being banned

Blaaz, I am still waiting for that PM of magic beans that is going to enlighten me as to why Linfield chose purple and orange?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

is going to enlighten me as to why Linfield chose purple and orange?

Because they thought they would get away with pathetically taunting others. Nobody is buying it, not even the shirt sponsors.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Because they thought they would get away with pathetically taunting others. Nobody is buying it, not even the shirt sponsors.

Francie. I know it’s late but that is a pathetic edit of my post. I’ll not repeat it as posters can see the original a few posts up.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie. I know it’s late but that is a pathetic edit of my post. I’ll not repeat it as posters can see the original a few posts up.

What more do you need to know about it. A club with a history of sectarianism did something to taunt other supporters.

BonnieSituation

jm08 wrote: »

OK - 3 colours. The IRFU flag with the 4 provinces has about 10 colours and of course the symbols on it disintegrate into a blob when reduced in size.

They really don't though.

Look at the crest for the international rules team. Hardly.

BonnieSituation

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I agree. One "coat of arms" on a flag is fine but 4 wouldn't work.

The obvious answer is to replicate Canada's except green instead of red and a shamrock instead of a maple leaf.

Bleugh.

State. Of. That.

How you ever kept your shambles is beyond me. I mean, a Union Jack in the canton? Bleugh!

BonnieSituation

jm08 wrote: »

Shamrock is how St. Patrick explained the Holy Trinity, so maybe not such a good idea in a secular state.


Personally, I'd go for the Harp as a nod to our own history and as part of the United Kingdom of GB & Ireland on a green background (basically, the Presidential Standard, except in green, not blue).





Still think the tricolour is most appropriate in its symbolism. From an article in the Guardian written by a young unionist who got an Irish passport 4 years ago!





https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/16/ireland-unite-reclaim-common-past-build-shared-future

So you want the Leinster flag as the National flag?

Even as a Leinster-man I'd prefer the Presidential Standard over it.

So as a personal hierarchy:

1. Tricolour
2. Four Provinces
3. St Patrick's Saltire
4. Presidential Standard

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A green rectangle should keep everyone happy. Then you can project/imagine/dream any symbol or meaning on to it that you wish. An Anthem without lyrics as well.

Copying Libya now?

I suppose, they took the Leaving Cert...

Kermit.de.frog

Speaking for myself I would never give up our flag, anthem or anything else to appease unionists.

We don't need to anyway.

When Scotland leaves the UK is over.

Hamsterchops

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Speaking for myself I would never give up our flag, anthem or anything else to appease unionists.

Wow, that's a pretty hardline, uncompromising approach to an all island harmonious "Unity".
After all the hurt and bitterness, you would just say, this is our flag, take it, use it and shut up....

Not sure how they'd react to that up North

BloodyBill

jm08 wrote: »

This is what you asked:



Well actually, it was the Vikings who were the slave traders. And then of course the English and Welsh used sell their own kids. The biggest market for slaves was England and that trade fell apart when William the Conqueror banned slavery in the Kingdom of England.

Prior to that under Brehon Law, there was a kind of Caste system, but you could move up the ranks if you were not a criminal.

Dublin was founded on slavery. It was the biggest slaving town in Europe after Marseille. Absolving the native Irish if any involvement is silly. It's like the current denying of any involvement of ordinary Irish in colonialism or Empire building.

BloodyBill

I think a whole new flag with none of the present colours or symbols would be the best way forward. The IRFU flag is not suitable as a country's Flag. 4 different symbols is a non runner. Simplicity is the best way forward.
The artists should just be given parameters that the colours and shape should have no link to the past whatsoever.

FrancieBrady

BloodyBill wrote: »

I think a whole new flag with none of the present colours or symbols would be the best way forward. The IRFU flag is not suitable as a country's Flag. 4 different symbols is a non runner. Simplicity is the best way forward.
The artists should just be given parameters that the colours and shape should have no link to the past whatsoever.

They'll probably, coincidentally and all that, come up with purple and orange.

Junkyard Tom

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Wow, that's a pretty hardline, uncompromising approach to an all island harmonious "Unity".

It's his right and I don't doubt there are many more with the same views. People will not want to give up on the Tricolour which has a message of peace between the two traditions displayed equally on the flag despite one being a significant minority that has little interest in its message.

Not sure how they'd react to that up North

Your language constantly privileges unionists as synonymous with 'the north'. Latest poll has 33% identifying as Unionist in the north which is less than 9% of the total population of Ireland.

Unionists will be in no position to be making demands in a United Ireland.

jm08

BloodyBill wrote: »

Dublin was founded on slavery. It was the biggest slaving town in Europe after Marseille. Absolving the native Irish if any involvement is silly. It's like the current denying of any involvement of ordinary Irish in colonialism or Empire building.

Yes, as I've already explained - Viking Dublin. That was around the 800s. The native Gaels were sold into slavery all over Europe.

When the Vikings established early Scandinavian Dublin in 841, they began a slave market that would come to sell thralls captured both in Ireland and other countries as distant as Spain,[5] as well as sending Irish slaves as far away as Iceland,[6] where Gaels formed 40% of the founding population,[7] and Anatolia.[8] In 875, Irish slaves in Iceland launched Europe's largest slave rebellion since the end of the Roman Empire, when Hjörleifr Hróðmarsson's slaves killed him and fled to Vestmannaeyjar.I][URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"]citation needed[/URL][/I Almost all recorded slave raids in this period took place in Leinster and southeast Ulster; while there was almost certainly similar activity in the south and west, only one raid from the Hebrides on the Aran Islands is recorded.[9]

jm08

downcow wrote: »

So are you saying those living in Ireland did not send raiding parties to Briton to grab slaves?
That contradicts what you said a few posts ago

Up to about the 5th century (when St. Patrick was grabbed by pirates). Thats when he converted to christianity and after escaping back to Britain, he returned again and was allowed preach christianity and convert the natives. Not bad gong for a former slave to do that within about 10 years!

Yeah_Right

BonnieSituation wrote: »

How you ever kept your shambles is beyond me. I mean, a Union Jack in the canton? Bleugh!

In the referendum a few years ago I voted for change. Unfortunately we lost. I accepted that. Didn't blow anything up. It's called democracy.

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

In the referendum a few years ago I voted for change. Unfortunately we lost. I accepted that. Didn't blow anything up. It's called democracy.

Who is wrecking the place over 'flags' here?

Junkyard Tom

Yeah_Right wrote: »

In the referendum a few years ago I voted for change. Unfortunately we lost. I accepted that. Didn't blow anything up. It's called democracy.

In Ireland we have the orange stripe and in Britain they have the St Patrick's cross which at least attempt to represent different traditions.

Does the NZ flag reference the Maori people at all, or is just throwback to colonial Britain?

jm08

eire4 wrote: »

Well again you do not like the 4 provincial flag as a potential flag for Ireland after reunification that is your opinion and is fine. For myself personally I do like the 4 provinces flag and would happily see it as the Ireland flag after reunification.
However having more then 2 colours and not including white and symbols on jerseys is not unusual. Kenya, Uganda, Ethiopia, South Africa, Zambia, Central African Republic, Comoros, Zimbabwe, South Sudan, Libya, Mozambique, Mauritius, Seychelles, Armenia, Germany, Lithuania, Azerbaijan, Jordan, Andorra, Romania, Bolivia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Antigua and Barbuda, Dominica, Grenada, Jamaica, St Kitts and Nevis, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka etc. By no means an exhaustive list but clearly many countries have more then 2 colours not counting white and often symbols as well in their national flags.

As for its symbolism it represents all 4 green fields of Ireland so to speak beautifully IMHO.

As for using the 4 provinces flag on sporting jerseys well not sure there are very many national sporting bodies in Ireland that do not use the Shamrock as the focal point of their national teams crest. Personally I am very fond of and love to see that Shamrock on the jersey's of our sporting teams and individuals and see no reason for that to change.

Can you explain why we don't see any of the rugby flags being used by people at games if its so ideal? Why do people bring the tricolour?


The Irish soccer team doesn't have a shamrock and they are probably the only team that is not an all Ireland team here.



Three colours maybe - but it gets more expensive the more colours you have. For instance, the cost of the rugby flag is 4 times that for what a tricolour is of the same size. There also doesn't seem to be any rugby flags available in small sizes!


As for the crest on flags - Germany has a crest (black) which is on their jerseys, but not on their everyday flag which is just the black, red and yellow. France & Italy do something similar, with their flags being simply colour strips.

jm08

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They really don't though.

Look at the crest for the international rules team. Hardly.

That crest on international rules jersey isn't the 4 provincial flags (just elements of them). In fact, Connacht is just represented by a sword.

jm08

eire4 wrote: »

Ahh just seeing that addition and I would put forward the following flags having more than 3 colours and some also having symbols on their national flags:

South Africa, Turkmenistan, St Pierre and Miquelon, Central African Republic, Dominica, Zimbabwe, Seychelles, Comoros, Namibia, Grenada, Antigua and Barbuda, Mauritius, Mozambique, St Kitts and Nevis, St Vincent and the Grenadines, Sao Tome and Principe, South Sudan, Sri Lanka, Tanzania, Uganda, Vanuatu, Zambia etc.

And about the only flag anyone would recognise in that lot is South Africa - certainly none of them would be instantly recognisable.


This does not get away from the fact that the most distinctive flags are simple and rely on strong colours to be readily identifiable.

Yeah_Right

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

In Ireland we have the orange stripe and in Britain they have the St Patrick's cross which at least attempt to represent different traditions.

Does the NZ flag reference the Maori people at all, or is just throwback to colonial Britain?

No representation of the Maori or modern NZ. It is the old colonial flag. That's why there was a referendum. Unfortunately not enough voted to change it.

jm08

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So you want the Leinster flag as the National flag?

Even as a Leinster-man I'd prefer the Presidential Standard over it.

Leinster Rugby don't use the Leinster flag, so no association to put us Munster fans off it! I like the Presidential flag, but I think green is associated with Ireland and needs to be the predominant colour in any flag, not to mention having to change all sports kits etc. as blue really does not go that well with green.


Watching NI football team playing is a bit odd, with the players all in green and the fans waving white and red flags.

So as a personal hierarchy:

1. Tricolour
2. Four Provinces
3. St Patrick's Saltire
4. Presidential Standard

Four Provinces - just impractical.
St. Patrick's Saltaire - the UK will need to give it back to us (by removing it from the Union flag). Not sure why its appropriate as it originally was the crest of the Fitzgeralds.
I like Presidential flag of hapr, but want it in Green. We don't want to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater which is what we would be doing if we removed the colour green.