How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Junkyard Tom

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Unfortunately not enough voted to change it.

That's majoritarianism. Some things should be done because they are right not because they require a majority. In the same way as some things should not be done because a majority say they should.

You NZ'ers should do better by the Maoris.

Yeah_Right

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

That's majoritarianism. Some things should be done because they are right not because they require a majority. In the same way as some things should not be done because a majority say they should.

You NZ'ers should do better by the Maoris.

Hahaha. That's hilarious. Such Shinner logic. Have a democratic vote but if it doesn't go the way you want just force it through. Tell me, how would you force through unification if you lost a referendum on it.

Let's not drag this thread off topic by talking about the Maori. If you want to, you can start a thread on it and I'll participate.

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Hahaha. That's hilarious. Such Shinner logic. Have a democratic vote but if it doesn't go the way you want just force it through. Tell me, how would you force through unification if you lost a referendum on it.

Let's not drag this thread off topic by talking about the Maori. If you want to, you can start a thread on it and I'll participate.

I don't think he is saying that.

He is saying that some things should be done because it is the right thing to do.

Like taking down an offensive statue, doesn't need a referendum nor force. It just needs concensus at government level.

If you believe that indigenous people were dispossessed and are under-represented then there should be no need to hold a referendum to properly represent them on the flag of a country.

Brendan Bendar

This thread is living proof that these folk are living in the past, obsessed with emblems, signs, flags, colours,symbols, and the rest.

They can ‘sit down’ and discuss these things for days, months and years, as this thread indicates.

As long as that attitude pervades, UI...... which the Shinners want front and centre, whilst the country recovers from Brexit, economy collapse, and C-19 can take a running jump.

Some of us want to move forward rather than ‘sit down’ and live in the 60s and 70s endlessly chewing over stuff which to progressive people is no longer relevant.

Some folk seem to think that ‘sitting down’ and rehashing shyte which has happened, cannot be changed, is more productive than moving forward and trying to advance prospects by deeds.

This thread is a prime example of the sour vindictive outdated Neanderthals on both side who try to perpetuate the bilious sourness of the place and expect the Republic to join in to that crap.

Would ya ever..........

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's his right and I don't doubt there are many more with the same views. People will not want to give up on the Tricolour which has a message of peace between the two traditions displayed equally on the flag despite one being a significant minority that has little interest in its message.



Your language constantly privileges unionists as synonymous with 'the north'. Latest poll has 33% identifying as Unionist in the north which is less than 9% of the total population of Ireland.

Unionists will be in no position to be making demands in a United Ireland.

I thought it was very funny that he was saying he was keeping the tricolour and didn't give a toss what Unionists thought about it. Very ironic, given what the tricolour is 'supposed' to stand for lol.

But anyhow, I'm with him, more power to him. If it ever looked like there was any chance of a UI, we will need plenty of his type to ensure it definitely doesn't happen

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Up to about the 5th century (when St. Patrick was grabbed by pirates). Thats when he converted to christianity and after escaping back to Britain, he returned again and was allowed preach christianity and convert the natives. Not bad gong for a former slave to do that within about 10 years!

I think you will find if you dig a little deeper, the reason it is so impressive is that the achievements of a number of Patrick's were all rolled into one

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

In Ireland we have the orange stripe and in Britain they have the St Patrick's cross which at least attempt to represent different traditions.

Does the NZ flag reference the Maori people at all, or is just throwback to colonial Britain?

haha so what about a St Patrick's cross with an orange stripe, you could put a diagonal the same as the new Linfield shirt

FrancieBrady

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

This thread is living proof that these folk are living in the past, obsessed with emblems, signs, flags, colours,symbols, and the rest.

They can ‘sit down’ and discuss these things for days, months and years, as this thread indicates.

As long as that attitude pervades, UI...... which the Shinners want front and centre, whilst the country recovers from Brexit, economy collapse, and C-19 can take a running jump.

Some of us want to move forward rather than ‘sit down’ and live in the 60s and 70s endlessly chewing over stuff which to progressive people is no longer relevant.

Some folk seem to think that ‘sitting down’ and rehashing shyte which has happened, cannot be changed, is more productive than moving forward and trying to advance prospects by deeds.

This thread is a prime example of the sour vindictive outdated Neanderthals on both side who try to perpetuate the bilious sourness of the place and expect the Republic to join in to that crap.

Would ya ever..........

Hey Brendy...what if it's you that's a 'sour vindictive outdated Neanderthal'?

FG and FF seem to think so because they intend investigating a UI...finally SF pressure has paid off.

These things will 'move forward' despite belligerents, be they Unionist or Partitionists.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

haha so what about a St Patrick's cross with an orange stripe, you could put a diagonal the same as the new Linfield shirt

With the fall in Orange membership, and as you say here often...the move away from it...would there even be a Unionist majority for the Orange to be on the flag anymore?

BonnieSituation

Yeah_Right wrote: »

In the referendum a few years ago I voted for change. Unfortunately we lost. I accepted that. Didn't blow anything up. It's called democracy.

Yes, because a relatively non-contentious peaceful NZ referendum on changing their flag is EXACTLY the same as Ireland's historical subjugation.

I'll try not to blow anything up on the way out.

BonnieSituation

jm08 wrote: »

Can you explain why we don't see any of the rugby flags being used by people at games if its so ideal? Why do people bring the tricolour?


The Irish soccer team doesn't have a shamrock and they are probably the only team that is not an all Ireland team here.



Three colours maybe - but it gets more expensive the more colours you have. For instance, the cost of the rugby flag is 4 times that for what a tricolour is of the same size. There also doesn't seem to be any rugby flags available in small sizes!


As for the crest on flags - Germany has a crest (black) which is on their jerseys, but not on their everyday flag which is just the black, red and yellow. France & Italy do something similar, with their flags being simply colour strips.

Where are you buying your flags? That's quite a differential.

The FAI has a stylised shamrock on their badge.

The IFA have 4 shamrocks on their badge.

BonnieSituation

jm08 wrote: »

And about the only flag anyone would recognise in that lot is South Africa - certainly none of them would be instantly recognisable.

Speak for yourself

BonnieSituation

jm08 wrote: »

Leinster Rugby don't use the Leinster flag, so no association to put us Munster fans off it! I like the Presidential flag, but I think green is associated with Ireland and needs to be the predominant colour in any flag, not to mention having to change all sports kits etc. as blue really does not go that well with green.


Watching NI football team playing is a bit odd, with the players all in green and the fans waving white and red flags.






Four Provinces - just impractical.
St. Patrick's Saltaire - the UK will need to give it back to us (by removing it from the Union flag). Not sure why its appropriate as it originally was the crest of the Fitzgeralds.
I like Presidential flag of hapr, but want it in Green. We don't want to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater which is what we would be doing if we removed the colour green.

What?

I'm not talking about Leinster Rugby here.

I'm discussing the flag of the province of Leinster, which is a harp on a green field.

You have some very interesting issues with Irish symbolism.

jm08

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Hahaha. That's hilarious. Such Shinner logic. Have a democratic vote but if it doesn't go the way you want just force it through. Tell me, how would you force through unification if you lost a referendum on it.

Let's not drag this thread off topic by talking about the Maori. If you want to, you can start a thread on it and I'll participate.

Its more like you put stuff in place so that minorities don't suffer like having a PR voting system rather than FPTP. Or like in NZ, that assigns a certain number of parliamentry seats to the Maori!

Hamsterchops

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

People will not want to give up on the Tricolour which has a message of peace between the two traditions displayed equally on the flag despite one being a significant minority that has little interest in its message.

Your language constantly privileges unionists as synonymous with 'the north'. Latest poll has 33% identifying as Unionist in the north which is less than 9% of the total population of Ireland.

Unionists will be in no position to be making demands in a United Ireland.

Well if Unionism is down to only 9% of the islands population, then I agree there no point in representing them in our flag, hence the flag stays the same in a United Ireland. I hadn't realised how few Unionists would be left.

And the national Anthem, any change there?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I think you will find if you dig a little deeper, the reason it is so impressive is that the achievements of a number of Patrick's were all rolled into one

To be honest, I'm content enough that an Irishman was to the fore at actually abolishing slavery, I'm not going to get too wound up with what happened up to the 10th century.

jm08

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Where are you buying your flags? That's quite a differential.

The FAI has a stylised shamrock on their badge.

The IFA have 4 shamrocks on their badge.

I don't buy flags! On the same site, I compared the price of the rugby flag and the tricolour. €5 for Tricolour, €21 for rugby flag.


FAI has a stylised football, not a shamrock (they changed logo in 90s).

The IFA have 4 tiny yellow shamrocks in their crest!

RobMc59

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's his right and I don't doubt there are many more with the same views. People will not want to give up on the Tricolour which has a message of peace between the two traditions displayed equally on the flag despite one being a significant minority that has little interest in its message.



Your language constantly privileges unionists as synonymous with 'the north'. Latest poll has 33% identifying as Unionist in the north which is less than 9% of the total population of Ireland.

Unionists will be in no position to be making demands in a United Ireland.

Have you got a link to this poll Tom?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

With the fall in Orange membership, and as you say here often...the move away from it...would there even be a Unionist majority for the Orange to be on the flag anymore?

TBH I was having a bit of fun.

I don't know of a single Unionist who cares the slightest whether you put pink dots on your flag. It's not our business.
As flags go it's okay. Most of your people seem to like it and wrap themselves in it, so why would you change it?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

To be honest, I'm content enough that an Irishman was to the fore at actually abolishing slavery, I'm not going to get too wound up with what happened up to the 10th century.

I think you will find that evangelical Protestants and particularly Presbyterians were at the fore in fighting against slavery. But you don't have too much time for them

Madeleine Birchfield

downcow wrote: »

I think you will find that evangelical Protestants and particularly Presbyterians were at the fore in fighting against slavery. But you don't have too much time for them

The Clapham Sect, a group of wealthy evangelical Anglicans from London who in addition to fighting against slavery also campaigned for other reforms such as Catholic emancipation, prison reform, electoral reform, and other social justice issues of their time in the UK.

Completely different from the conservative Presbyterian Ulster-Scots who eventually came to dominate Ulster Unionism in the turn of the 20th century, and their Protestant bible-thumping fleg-waving climate-change-denying descendants today.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I think you will find that evangelical Protestants and particularly Presbyterians were at the fore in fighting against slavery. But you don't have too much time for them

Presbyterians were as discriminated against as roman catholics. When Daniel O'Connell achieved Emancipation - it was also for Presbyterians and Jews who were not allowed up to then to sit in Parliament.

It was primarily Quakers and Methodists who were the anti-slavers and even with that, their (except Quakers) interest was more in converting them to christianity and saving them. They did not think they were equal though to whites. A bit like during the Irish famine, their relief work entailed converting catholics to protestantism to get the soup. (Quakers did not practice this).

Interesting bit from here of Daniel O'Connell around 1801:

O’Connell frequently claimed a long anti-slavery tradition for Ireland, quoting the Council of Armagh 1171 which prohibited Irish trading in English slaves and stressing the duty of every Irishman to remain true to this heritage.1He also announced that the one benefit brought by the Union was the anti-slavery attitudes of Irish MPs from all parties; their presence enabled the English to abolish the trade in 1807, slavery itself in 1833 and apprenticeship in 1838.2

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

TBH I was having a bit of fun.

I don't know of a single Unionist who cares the slightest whether you put pink dots on your flag. It's not our business.
As flags go it's okay. Most of your people seem to like it and wrap themselves in it, so why would you change it?

Ha ha...are you convincing yourself you are being clever here?

We know you will run a mile from a discussion on a flag and anthem for a UI and for NI downcow.

Brendan Bendar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ha ha...are you convincing yourself you are being clever here?

We know you will run a mile from a discussion on a flag and anthem for a UI and for NI downcow.

This is the bolloxology that will pertain if SF get control.

While the country collapses, this is the crap which dominates the discussion.


Wake up folks.

Don’t let these cavedwellers take control.

Complete cretins.

FrancieBrady

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

This is the bolloxology that will pertain if SF get control.

While the country collapses, this is the crap which dominates the discussion.


Wake up folks.

Don’t let these cavedwellers take control.

Complete cretins.

Who you talking to there Brendan...is there someone under the bed again?

Brendan Bendar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who you talking to there Brendan...is there someone under the bed again?

As they say Francie...if the cap fits.

FrancieBrady

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

As they say Francie...if the cap fits.

How's about you add something Brendan....don't always be so reductive?

If you are distressed by the conversations maybe this isn't the place for you.


To be positive and if you are staying on thread let me help you.

Is it that you think there will be no discussions on a flag in the event of a UI?

Is it that you think there will be no UI ever (in which case why are you so bothered by these discussions?)

I am a big lad...if you want to posit a theory on the above I can take it, I won't go all censorship on you...say whatever you feel you need to get it off your chest. I do reserve the right to counter your opinion though.

downcow

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

The Clapham Sect, a group of wealthy evangelical Anglicans from London who in addition to fighting against slavery also campaigned for other reforms such as Catholic emancipation, prison reform, electoral reform, and other social justice issues of their time in the UK.

Completely different from the conservative Presbyterian Ulster-Scots who eventually came to dominate Ulster Unionism in the turn of the 20th century, and their Protestant bible-thumping fleg-waving climate-change-denying descendants today.

Haha. What about the prejudiced stereotyping Irish catholics that could come up with a post like that.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ha ha...are you convincing yourself you are being clever here?

We know you will run a mile from a discussion on a flag and anthem for a UI and for NI downcow.

I would be totally up for a sporting anthem for NI and I see no reason why not a flag as well.
It would scare the bejesus out of you Francie if there was an agreed anything in NI

Brendan Bendar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How's about you add something Brendan....don't always be so reductive?

If you are distressed by the conversations maybe this isn't the place for you.


To be positive and if you are staying on thread let me help you.

Is it that you think there will be no discussions on a flag in the event of a UI?

Is it that you think there will be no UI ever (in which case why are you so bothered by these discussions?)

I am a big lad...if you want to posit a theory on the above I can take it, I won't go all censorship on you...say whatever you feel you need to get it off your chest. I do reserve the right to counter your opinion though.

Heh heh...Francie....if you think I give a flying fuhherke about what you think, you are delusioned.

Gimps locked into cemented cavedweller ideals along the ‘bawder’ have no influence on me .

Hope that doesn’t offend you, dude.

And your’e not a “big lad” in my books, pal, just another tool battering out SF rhetoric which hasn’t a chance in hell of keeping this country viable.

Hope that helps:cool: