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How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 69,167 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Heh heh...Francie....if you think I give a flying fuhherke about what you think, you are delusioned.

    Gimps locked into cemented cavedweller ideals along the ‘bawder’ have no influence on me .

    Hope that doesn’t offend you, dude.

    And your’e not a “big lad” in my books, pal, just another tool battering out SF rhetoric which hasn’t a chance in hell of keeping this country viable.

    Hope that helps:cool:

    So just invective...nothing positive to add to the discussion.

    Ok.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Heh heh...Francie....if you think I give a flying fuhherke about what you think, you are delusioned.

    Gimps locked into cemented cavedweller ideals along the ‘bawder’ have no influence on me .

    Hope that doesn’t offend you, dude.

    And your’e not a “big lad” in my books, pal, just another tool battering out SF rhetoric which hasn’t a chance in hell of keeping this country viable.

    Hope that helps:cool:

    That’s very hurtful for those that supported 40 years of sectarian murder and ended up having to watch their leaders take up post in uk administration at Stormont between visiting their holiday homes and (I’ll not say it)


  • Registered Users Posts: 69,167 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    I would be totally up for a sporting anthem for NI and I see no reason why not a flag as well.
    It would scare the bejesus out of you Francie if there was an agreed anything in NI

    There's loads of agreed stuff in NI.

    The GFA was agreed by the majority.
    Normality about the flying flags was 'agreed' by the majority.
    Equality was agreed by the majority but opposed by those who have the ability to abuse a mechanism called the Petition of Concern.

    Nothing scary about it downcow.


    Any thoughts on a flag for a UI, even though we know you think it is hypothetical ...all the more reason for you to let your imagination run.

    Any thoughts for a flag for the current NI...which isn't hypothetical.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,553 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    So just invective...nothing positive to add to the discussion.

    Ok.

    Just the truth, buddy.

    Have you a difficulty with that Francie?


  • Registered Users Posts: 69,167 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Just the truth, buddy.

    Have you a difficulty with that Francie?

    Not a bit Brendan, you get it all off your chest...better out than in, as granny used to say. Can't be good for you.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,020 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Copying Libya now?

    ..

    Surely you can understand why a Shinner would like to copy Ghadaffi's Libya. Apart from the obvious terrorism links, all elections were won with a 99.9% majority. That's the sort of democracy Shinners believe in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,553 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    Surely you can understand why a Shinner would like to copy Ghadaffi's Libya. Apart from the obvious terrorism links, all elections were won with a 99.9% majority. That's the sort of democracy Shinners believe in.

    Yes, that’s how it could work


  • Registered Users Posts: 69,167 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    Surely you can understand why a Shinner would like to copy Ghadaffi's Libya. Apart from the obvious terrorism links, all elections were won with a 99.9% majority. That's the sort of democracy Shinners believe in.

    :):) My lack of interest in flags walked me into that one. Well done sir, well done.

    I still think a single colour that you project whatever identity you want on to would do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    downcow wrote: »
    That’s very hurtful for those that supported 40 years of sectarian murder and ended up having to watch their leaders take up post in uk administration at Stormont between visiting their holiday homes and (I’ll not say it)


    And the people of this island could have been spared all of that if unionists would only have agreed to the Sunningdale Agreement which would have brought moderate nationalists into the Stormont Government in 1973.


    Do you ever wish that unionists had supported the Sunningdale Agreement and civil rights for catholics DC? (and if not that, the Anglo Irish Agreement)?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    jm08 wrote: »
    And the people of this island could have been spared all of that if unionists would only have agreed to the Sunningdale Agreement which would have brought moderate nationalists into the Stormont Government in 1973.


    Do you ever wish that unionists had supported the Sunningdale Agreement and civil rights for catholics DC? (and if not that, the Anglo Irish Agreement)?

    You are sectarianising civil rights. Don’t think the organisers would agree with you. You and paisley would have agreed though


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    There's loads of agreed stuff in NI.

    The GFA was agreed by the majority.
    Normality about the flying flags was 'agreed' by the majority.
    Equality was agreed by the majority but opposed by those who have the ability to abuse a mechanism called the Petition of Concern.

    Nothing scary about it downcow.


    Any thoughts on a flag for a UI, even though we know you think it is hypothetical ...all the more reason for you to let your imagination run.

    Any thoughts for a flag for the current NI...which isn't hypothetical.

    I love the white Ulster flag. But I’m not wed to it and would be very accommodating of something that the nationalist community drove. I’d want them to be most comfortable with it.
    What about the st Patrick’s cross on a green background with a red hand?


  • Registered Users Posts: 69,167 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    I love the white Ulster flag. But I’m not wed to it and would be very accommodating of something that the nationalist community drove. I’d want them to be most comfortable with it.
    What about the st Patrick’s cross on a green background with a red hand?

    I'd have no religious iconography on a flag myself. There are non Christian citizens too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭eire4


    downcow wrote: »
    Well, before you get too high and mighty, I think you should read back through the posts and you will find that this discussion WAS about the issues with the IRFU flag and anthem.
    I have no problem with you discussing creating a flag and anthem for a hypothetical country that you think may exist some day. But I prefer you did not duck the original issue by trying to portray me as twisting

    Not a discussion I was involved in. As I have made very clear due to the dissembling and disingenuous nature you display that precludes me from having anything other then enormous skepticism in regards to what you posit in your posts in general and thus why I am disinclined to engage with you.

    In this instance I was responding to another person that the flag I would happily see as the flag of Ireland post reunification was the 4 provinces flag. My post was very clear and unambiguous and yet you then chose to respond to my unambiguous post and attempting to twisting it to something else when my post was undeniably unequivocal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    downcow wrote: »
    You are sectarianising civil rights. Don’t think the organisers would agree with you. You and paisley would have agreed though


    Well, the civil rights demands were for catholics from protestants, the ruling class, so they were sectarian.


    Now, just answer whether you would have supported the Sunningdale Agreement or not?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Have you got a link to this poll Tom?

    I read it on Twitter this morning but am having trouble finding the actual post but I think it was referring to this survey:

    https://twitter.com/PhilipMcGarry4/status/1273278921765785600?s=20

    Before you come back and say 'BUT, HAHA, LOL, Nationalists only 23%' it's the non-aligned people who will decide whether a Pro UI vote carries or not. Britain's troubled union is straining at the seams as it is. Scotland is very valuable to England/London and provides all-island integrity. The north of Ireland is nothing but a burden and continues to be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭eire4


    jm08 wrote: »
    Can you explain why we don't see any of the rugby flags being used by people at games if its so ideal? Why do people bring the tricolour?


    The Irish soccer team doesn't have a shamrock and they are probably the only team that is not an all Ireland team here.



    Three colours maybe - but it gets more expensive the more colours you have. For instance, the cost of the rugby flag is 4 times that for what a tricolour is of the same size. There also doesn't seem to be any rugby flags available in small sizes!


    As for the crest on flags - Germany has a crest (black) which is on their jerseys, but not on their everyday flag which is just the black, red and yellow. France & Italy do something similar, with their flags being simply colour strips.


    Well let me start with the Irish football team. The crest does indeed have a shamrock on it. It is a stylized Shamrock and I personally I am not a fan of the crest but it is a Shamrock all the same.

    Secondly the tricolour is the current national flag of Ireland which I am fine with and naturally is the flag Ireland fans bring to sporting events. I do not need to explain anything other then the 4 provinces flag is a flag I would happily see as the Ireland flag after reunification. Simply as that.

    Again as I have said before I get it you do not like the idea of the 4 provinces flag as the Irish flag after reunification and I do. A difference of opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭eire4


    jm08 wrote: »
    And about the only flag anyone would recognise in that lot is South Africa - certainly none of them would be instantly recognisable.


    This does not get away from the fact that the most distinctive flags are simple and rely on strong colours to be readily identifiable.

    I think the fact the 4 provinces flags would be very unique would be a plus point but again that is just my opinion. As for the various flags I managed to recognise them.

    What is the style of the most distinctive flags again are a matter of opinion. You clearly favour something more simple and I like the 4 provinces flag. Neither is better just different types of flags.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    jm08 wrote: »
    Well, the civil rights demands were for catholics from protestants, the ruling class, so they were sectarian.


    Now, just answer whether you would have supported the Sunningdale Agreement or not?

    Well we were told they were not supposed to be sectarian. But anyhow you may well be correct.

    I feel there is no way a unionist could ever accept sunningdale which would have establishEd a Council of Ireland with executive powers, the beginnings of unifying Ireland. A slippery slope.
    The gfa is the opposite. A clear acceptance from everyone that ni is an integral part of the uk and can only change with the agreement of the people of NI.
    This is why I believe the gfa is tantamount to a surrender by the Ira. Sunningdale would have clearly been a defeat/surrender by unionists


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭eire4


    jm08 wrote: »
    I don't buy flags! On the same site, I compared the price of the rugby flag and the tricolour. €5 for Tricolour, €21 for rugby flag.


    FAI has a stylised football, not a shamrock (they changed logo in 90s).

    The IFA have 4 tiny yellow shamrocks in their crest!

    You are incorrect as regards the FAI crest. I suggest you take a better look at the stylized football. The stylized Shamrock is right there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    I read it on Twitter this morning but am having trouble finding the actual post but I think it was referring to this survey:

    https://twitter.com/PhilipMcGarry4/status/1273278921765785600?s=20

    Before you come back and say 'BUT, HAHA, LOL, Nationalists only 23%' it's the non-aligned people who will decide whether a Pro UI vote carries or not. Britain's troubled union is straining at the seams as it is. Scotland is very valuable to England/London and provides all-island integrity. The north of Ireland is nothing but a burden and continues to be.

    I wasn't trying to trip you up Tom,it could be the link I posted a couple of days ago.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 69,167 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    Well we were told they were not supposed to be sectarian. But anyhow you may well be correct.

    I feel there is no way a unionist could ever accept sunningdale which would have establishEd a Council of Ireland with executive powers, the beginnings of unifying Ireland. A slippery slope.
    The gfa is the opposite. A clear acceptance from everyone that ni is an integral part of the uk and can only change with the agreement of the people of NI.
    This is why I believe the gfa is tantamount to a surrender by the Ira. Sunningdale would have clearly been a defeat/surrender by unionists

    Sunningdale was never going to succeed and had no involvement from SF and indeed the IRA. Even though it was a 'nationalist' settlement it had weak nationalists negotiating it - the SDLP. Other than showing the world who the real belligerents were, Sunningdale is not much of pivot point.

    Accepting equality and self determination and the tacit withdrawal by Britain was enough to get the agreement of nationalists in the GFA. Thinking they had secured the Union was enough for Unionists.
    Genius really from Hume Adams, Trimble etc.
    Belligerent Unionists hated that about the GFA and still do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Sunningdale was never going to succeed and had no involvement from SF and indeed the IRA. Even though it was a 'nationalist' settlement it had weak nationalists negotiating it - the SDLP. Other than showing the world who the real belligerents were, Sunningdale is not much of pivot point.

    Accepting equality and self determination and the tacit withdrawal by Britain was enough to get the agreement of nationalists in the GFA. Thinking they had secured the Union was enough for Unionists.
    Genius really from Hume Adams, Trimble etc.
    Belligerent Unionists hated that about the GFA and still do.

    The genius of it is that people like you accept it and publicly pretend you think it’s wonderful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    jm08 wrote: »
    I don't buy flags! On the same site, I compared the price of the rugby flag and the tricolour. €5 for Tricolour, €21 for rugby flag.

    Just to be clear, it's not a rugby flag.

    240px-Four_Provinces_Flag.svg.png

    The IRFU have a flag that uses the provincial arms within it.

    IRFUFLag_650_rdax_80.jpg

    They use sublimated colours in manufacturing (typical mass production) so it is not the reason for the price differential. I'd say, not knowing the site in question, that it has a lot to do with popularity and how they are ordered in batches.

    And possibly sizes available.
    FAI has a stylised football, not a shamrock (they changed logo in 90s).

    You should probably look closer:

    400px-Football_Association_of_Ireland_logo.svg.png

    They're not random swirls!

    This crest has been in use since ca. 2003/4. Fran Rooney was the chief executive that launched it.
    The IFA have 4 tiny yellow shamrocks in their crest!

    Okay?


  • Registered Users Posts: 69,167 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    The genius of it is that people like you accept it and publicly pretend you think it’s wonderful.

    People like 'me' haven't had to protest a single advance since it was signed downcow. Belligerent Unionists have been kicking and screaming and 'Never Never Never ah well shure go on'ing' since.

    Parades, flegs, rights, border in the Irish Sea etc etc etc.

    Victory? :):)

    Not rubbing it in, but come on...you lost the goose not just the egg.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    People like 'me' haven't had to protest a single advance since it was signed downcow. Belligerent Unionists have been kicking and screaming and 'Never Never Never ah well shure go on'ing' since.

    Parades, flegs, rights, border in the Irish Sea etc etc etc.

    Victory? :):)

    Not rubbing it in, but come on...you lost the goose not just the egg.

    That’s the genius of it.
    Ira/sf Sit in a uk devolved administration
    Ira/sf Accept that NI is fully in UK until we decide we want to leave (that’s all unionists ever asked for or wanted)
    Union flag remains official flag of country

    Granted the prisoners got out and Gerry etc got rich, and agent Martin etc didn’t get his cover blown and died a hero

    Ruc change their name and tweak a few things around the edges

    Unionists in areas like mine are finally getting left alone to live their lives with only sporadic sectarian stuff

    Ira/sf have to continue to pretend gfa is working for them
    Unionists have nothing to make a noise over except things like the union flag is not flying quite enough days on city hall. Haha

    Pure genius

    If calsberg done peace agreements.


  • Registered Users Posts: 69,167 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    That’s the genius of it.
    Ira/sf Sit in a uk devolved administration
    Ira/sf Accept that NI is fully in UK until we decide we want to leave (that’s all unionists ever asked for or wanted)
    Union flag remains official flag of country

    Granted the prisoners got out and Gerry etc got rich, and agent Martin etc didn’t get his cover blown and died a hero

    Ruc change their name and tweak a few things around the edges

    Unionists in areas like mine are finally getting left alone to live their lives with only sporadic sectarian stuff

    Ira/sf have to continue to pretend gfa is working for them
    Unionists have nothing to make a noise over except things like the union flag is not flying quite enough days on city hall. Haha

    Pure genius

    If calsberg done peace agreements.


    :):)

    Funny attempt to wind up and taunt.

    I couldn't care less if you think the IRA actually waved a white flag and genuflect every day in front of a picture of the queen. The IRA are gone...done and dusted.

    I'm more interested in the reality though.
    For instance was Jim Molyneaux right when he said that the Peace Process and the GFA was 'the worst thing that ever happened to us' (Unionism)?

    I think when you look at where the process has taken Unionism, from parades, to flegs, to having to accept equality for every one and respect for everyone it has to be 'the worst thing that ever happened them'.

    On the constitutional issue, they have been, diverged away from the union slowly but surely and integrated more and more into the workings of the south. Pilloried by the people of Britain when they took the bait from the Tories again they have now lost the latest pitched battle and have had to accept the biggest increment in divergence yet - a border in the Irish sea.

    Nationalists on the other hand are watching the two parties that came out of Independence in the south, formulate plans to look at Unifying the country at a time when Irish Unity represents a huge attraction to the GB and the EU from an economic and security point of view.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    :):)

    Funny attempt to wind up and taunt.

    I couldn't care less if you think the IRA actually waved a white flag and genuflect every day in front of a picture of the queen. The IRA are gone...done and dusted.

    I'm more interested in the reality though.
    For instance was Jim Molyneaux right when he said that the Peace Process and the GFA was 'the worst thing that ever happened to us' (Unionism)?

    I think when you look at where the process has taken Unionism, from parades, to flegs, to having to accept equality for every one and respect for everyone it has to be 'the worst thing that ever happened them'.

    On the constitutional issue, they have been, diverged away from the union slowly but surely and integrated more and more into the workings of the south. Pilloried by the people of Britain when they took the bait from the Tories again they have now lost the latest pitched battle and have had to accept the biggest increment in divergence yet - a border in the Irish sea.

    Nationalists on the other hand are watching the two parties that came out of Independence in the south, formulate plans to look at Unifying the country at a time when Irish Unity represents a huge attraction to the GB and the EU from an economic and security point of view.

    That’s the genius.
    Republicans are now happy with what you list above. A far cry from brits out, etc.

    .....and you say
    “ I think when you look at where the process has taken Unionism, from parades, to flegs, to having to accept equality for every one and respect for everyone it has to be 'the worst thing that ever happened them'.”

    Surely even taking that at face value it would be a plus plus for moderate unionism. Win all the way


  • Registered Users Posts: 69,167 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    That’s the genius.
    Republicans are now happy with what you list above. A far cry from brits out, etc.

    .....and you say
    “ I think when you look at where the process has taken Unionism, from parades, to flegs, to having to accept equality for every one and respect for everyone it has to be 'the worst thing that ever happened them'.”

    Surely even taking that at face value it would be a plus plus for moderate unionism. Win all the way

    The GFA has 'moderated' Unionism downcow in my opinion. It's greatest triumph was in convincing the likes of Ian Paisley to admit that Unionism had taken advantage of the artificially created statlet, that it had gotten rid of the voting system it was set-up with to gerrymander and control the power in a bigoted and sectarian way.
    Once Unionism in the main accepted that, the end of the road to equality and parity of esteem was in sight.

    Unfortunately there is still a number of belligerents (ever decreasing) trying to drive the car off the road. Like what happened with the DUP over Brexit. It failed and a few more belligerents fell off the wagon. It failed too when they tried to stand up to the Tory's and Dublin over a border in the Irish sea.

    Images of Jamie Bryson meeting in the upstairs rooms of pubs spring to mind, where did it all go wrong?

    The AIA and the GFA is were it all went wrong if you are a belligerent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    :):)

    Funny attempt to wind up and taunt.

    I couldn't care less if you think the IRA actually waved a white flag and genuflect every day in front of a picture of the queen. The IRA are gone...done and dusted.

    I'm more interested in the reality though.
    For instance was Jim Molyneaux right when he said that the Peace Process and the GFA was 'the worst thing that ever happened to us' (Unionism)?

    I think when you look at where the process has taken Unionism, from parades, to flegs, to having to accept equality for every one and respect for everyone it has to be 'the worst thing that ever happened them'.

    On the constitutional issue, they have been, diverged away from the union slowly but surely and integrated more and more into the workings of the south. Pilloried by the people of Britain when they took the bait from the Tories again they have now lost the latest pitched battle and have had to accept the biggest increment in divergence yet - a border in the Irish sea.

    Nationalists on the other hand are watching the two parties that came out of Independence in the south, formulate plans to look at Unifying the country at a time when Irish Unity represents a huge attraction to the GB and the EU from an economic and security point of view.

    As you've pointed out yourself,sometimes what is perceived as a disadvantage or calamity turns out to be a blessing in disguise.The GFA has been exactly that for the Union. Vague possibilities of a UI and a neutralized IRA have hamstrung republican aspirations.Adding to that,the coronavirus epidemic has highlighted to the people of NI just how much say they actually have in their own day to day lives thanks to the devolved government-its unlikely they would want to give that up to be down the pecking order with Dublin.
    The idyllic rose tinted republican vision of a UI is getting further away.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 69,167 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    As you've pointed out yourself,sometimes what is perceived as a disadvantage or calamity turns out to be a blessing in disguise.The GFA has been exactly that for the Union. Vague possibilities of a UI and a neutralized IRA have hamstrung republican aspirations.Adding to that,the coronavirus epidemic has highlighted to the people of NI just how much say they actually have in their own day to day lives thanks to the devolved government-its unlikely they would want to give that up to be down the pecking order with Dublin.
    The idyllic rose tinted republican vision of a UI is getting further away.

    That's precisely what we would like the belligerents to believe. A false sense of security. And it is probably why the DUP has messed up Brexit and the delivery of the GFA so spectacularly. A false sense that they are driving things...as any realist can see, they aren't, not even when the Tory's were using them to maintain power. As soon as the Tory had done with them the SoS was blaming them specifically for the continued absence of an executive. The DUP **** the bed again and capitulated because they had no choice in the cul de sac they went up.

    What are you basing all that theory on anyway? Seems to me 'island health security' is the talking point of Covid and our 'control' of that. A rogue NI threatening our strategies is not a good thing and will feature in any discussion about the future.


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