How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie, you are doing it again, answering questions I'm not asking.

My interest is in how you feel about it? How does it feel watching those who were being paid by the Brits, continued to be at the head of the Republican movement, making decisions and giving orders.
Does it not make you sick to your very stomach?

Imagine if those very same IRA men while under the orders of the British killed unionists?

That would be an appalling vista for you to think about, that the government was freely murdering their own citizens, and worse to think that they were murdering does who proclaimed loyalty to that very same State!

I don't know how as a Loyalist you're not up in arms at the idea of it.

Imagine not even being wanted by those who you proclaim to love?

Unrequited love is an awful thing.

---

Though, if you want to start a thread on the likes of Storey and his ilk, perhaps you could start a thread.

This one's about the future of Ireland, not about the grubby British stained past.

Randy Archer

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Imagine if those very same IRA men while under the orders of the British killed unionists?

That would be an appalling vista for you to think about, that the government was freely murdering their own citizens, and worse to think that they were murdering does who proclaimed loyalty to that very same State!

I don't know how as a Loyalist you're not up in arms at the idea of it.

Imagine not even being wanted by those who you proclaim to love?

Unrequited love is an awful thing.

---

Though, if you want to start a thread on the likes of Storey and his ilk, perhaps you could start a thread.

This one's about the future of Ireland, not about the grubby British stained past.

It sure many “law abiding” Unionist would have shed a tear for how Billy Wright left this world

BonnieSituation

Randy Archer wrote: »

It sure many “law abiding” Unionist would have shed a tear for how Billy Wright left this world

I'm sure many did shed some tears.

Likewise I'm sure many were delighted at the demise of "King Rat".

What's your point caller?

Randy Archer

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm sure many did shed some tears.

Likewise I'm sure many were delighted at the demise of "King Rat".

What's your point caller?

Actually , it’s a typo on my part , it was suppose to say that I’m not sure that many ...shed a tear for his death - a death the Brits are accused of colluding with

downcow

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

And those Irish societies formed in the 50's and so on in England remained apolitical. And just social clubs because they wanted to blend in. No talk of politics and unification.

Plus many died in the wool Republicans have no issue shouting for an Irish soccer team, filled with 2nd or even 3rd generation 'Irish' players. Many of whom would be Unionists/Royalists at heart. No one seems to see the irony

When I was a young fella I was even voted against the GFA because it would have removed Article 2&3 of the Constitution. But now I realise how ridiculous such a territorial claim was, based on nothing but dogma.

As I already said most Irish people identify more with British culture, than Irishness. 70,000 people only speak Irish as a language of communication. It has being politicised and is merely symbolic.

The religious Catholic/Protestant thing is also ridiculous because most people do not even worship in churches anymore. How many Irish people regularly go to mass these days?

In many ways Irish people still have a mindset of a colony, but at the same time, like to pretend that they are Irish by being a republican and pro-UI. A UI is the 'right thing to say' what some people are trained to say since a young age.

Changing the line on a map will not change this mindset. Especially in the ROI 26 counties where they are already supposed to be 'free'. But most are still immersed in British culture and the English language even after a century of 'freedom'. There is a strong identification with British pop culture - music, sport, entertainment. Is that being Irish, is that being free?
To me (now since I copped on) freedom is a state of mind - not just the line on a map.
If a mindset does not change what is the point of a UI?

a great post, it makes a lot of sense. But I see you have upset Bonnie and she does not want to read your posts any more because she disagrees with you. But then sure I upset her as well this morning.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Can you start prefacing your posts with "In my opinion..."?

It'll save us the bother reading that nonsense and assuming you're some authority on Irish nationalism or Irish nationalists and their aspirations.

As a Partitionist you are free to campaign against a UI should a border poll be called.

Well I have came across the same guff so often in Dublin from loud Republicans. Who identify more with English/British culture and don't speak Irish - so thier only expression of Irishness left for them is to go on about a UI.

That has formed my opinion that I currently have. It is all about opinions. I can see how farcical these barstool Republican's sound. It is purely aspirational based a sort of pretense Irishness. You must have bumped into plenty of those sort of heads when out and about? Did you ever think of how silly it seemed?

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Imagine if those very same IRA men while under the orders of the British killed unionists?

That would be an appalling vista for you to think about, that the government was freely murdering their own citizens, and worse to think that they were murdering does who proclaimed loyalty to that very same State!

I don't know how as a Loyalist you're not up in arms at the idea of it.

Imagine not even being wanted by those who you proclaim to love?

Unrequited love is an awful thing.
.

Bonnie I am under no illusions about how dirty this conflict was. I know several people very well who handled low level informers (maybe they handled high-level ones to, but they don't tell me about them). I see all the issues, and don't deny the mess, but I also clearly see how it was a necessity. You have got to see the bigger picture. Yes informers and agents killed people, and that is horrific if those people were your friends or family, but the actions of those informers saved far more lives than they cost. They also were the main reason the conflict came to an end, because the paramilitaries on both sides were so riddled with British agents (and Irish agents in ROI).
I just raise these things because I think Republicans continue to romanticise what went on. They try to pretend Donaldson was an exception rather than more like the rule.
Do you not think that the crime gangs in Dublin are infiltrated? Is this okay? Do you not think that sometimes their handlers have to step back and allow crimes to happen, for the bigger picture, to protect their sources? Is this okay?

From talking to people who handled agents/informers, you can hear a definite affection for some and they clearly despised others who they saw as downright evil? This was not based on community or religious background. Clearly they would have worked harder to protect some than others.

I just think this continued nonsense that every time the forces worked with loyalists it was 'collusion', and every time they worked with Republicans they were 'handling agents'

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well I have came across the same guff so often in Dublin from loud Republicans. Who identify more with English/British culture and don't speak Irish - so thier only expression of Irishness left for them is to go on about a UI.

That has formed my opinion that I currently have. It is all about opinions. I can see how farcical these barstool Republican's sound. It is purely aspirational based a sort of pretense Irishness. You must have bumped into plenty of those sort of heads when out and about? Did you ever think of how silly it seemed?

Have you some sort of wall-chart that we can all consult so that we can measure our Irishness, and thus establish whether our aspirations are truly valid and meet with the "BlueNavy-blue" seal of approval?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie I am under no illusions about how dirty this conflict was. I know several people very well who handled low level informers (maybe they handled high-level ones to, but they don't tell me about them). I see all the issues, and don't deny the mess, but I also clearly see how it was a necessity. You have got to see the bigger picture. Yes informers and agents killed people, and that is horrific if those people were your friends or family, but the actions of those informers saved far more lives than they cost. They also were the main reason the conflict came to an end, because the paramilitaries on both sides were so riddled with British agents (and Irish agents in ROI).
I just raise these things because I think Republicans continue to romanticise what went on. They try to pretend Donaldson was an exception rather than more like the rule.
Do you not think that the crime gangs in Dublin are infiltrated? Is this okay? Do you not think that sometimes their handlers have to step back and allow crimes to happen, for the bigger picture, to protect their sources? Is this okay?

From talking to people who handled agents/informers, you can hear a definite affection for some and they clearly despised others who they saw as downright evil? This was not based on community or religious background. Clearly they would have worked harder to protect some than others.

I just think this continued nonsense that every time the forces worked with loyalists it was 'collusion', and every time they worked with Republicans they were 'handling agents'

But you built this strawman on the back of no one giving a crap about your WUM-ing post about Mr Storey.

And you're still peddling it.

Honestly, does it not concern you that the tacit withdrawals from the AIA to the DSD to the GFA not make you want to embrace a brighter future away from the ones who spurn you?

Unrequited love is a terrible thing.

gormdubhgorm

downcow wrote: »

a great post, it makes a lot of sense. But I see you have upset Bonnie and she does not want to read your posts any more because she disagrees with you. But then sure I upset her as well this morning.

You see I can discuss it easily because I know where most of the lads on the UI argument think (specifically in the ROI non-border areas). I used to think the same.

Didn't really speak any Irish with any regularity, my sole expression of Irishness was pretending to be anti-British when it suited. Despite watching English soccer - never going to a LOI game - and listening to Blur, Oasis, Beatles and Stones - British culture immersion.
But I rectified these things improved my Irish, became less anti-English/British and I have a decent sense of Irishness. I was no longer a contradiction - a hypocrite. And my sense of Irishness now no longer is dependent on whether I want to a line on a map. Or how much I hate Brits while being imersed in thier popular culture.

I have also realised (with maturity) there are many other practical factors to a UI - likely oppression of Unionists. More troubles costly from a human standpoint. and also a waste of money economically. How much billions a year do The British pump into NI? Are six counties really worth that hassle? Things are OK as they are.

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You see I can discuss it easily because I know where most of the lads on the UI argument think (specifically in the ROI non-border areas). I used to think the same.

Didn't really speak any Irish with any regularity, my sole expression of Irishness was pretending to be anti-British when it suited. Despite watching English soccer - never going to a LOI game - and listening to Blur, Oasis, Beatles and Stones - British culture immersion.
But I rectified these things improved my Irish, became less anti-English/British and I have a decent sense of Irishness. I was no longer a contradiction a hypocrite and my sense of Irishness now no longer is dependent on whether I want to a line on a map.

I have also realised (with maturity) there are many other practical factors to a UI - likely oppression of Unionist. More troubles costly from a human standpoint and also a waste of money economically. How much billions a year do The British pump into NI? Are six counties really worth that hassle? Things are OK as they are.

Grand. If you're happy with the Status quo then off you pop.

When a border poll arrives you can campaign against it like the rest of the Partitionists.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Have you some sort of wall-chart that we can all consult so that we can measure our Irishness, and thus establish whether our aspirations are truly valid and meet with the "BlueNavy-blue" seal of approval?

The two boys who hate Irishness so much they are flat out navel gazing about it every day.

One is insecure in his Britishness and the other in his Irishness. You couldn't write this stuff.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The two boys who hate Irishness so much they are flat out navel gazing about it every day.

One is insecure in his Britishness and the other in his Irishness. You couldn't write this stuff.

Well they could. Seemingly.

Poor GDG, I hope he can help out with all the unionist pogroms we're gonna have to set up.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Grand. If you're happy with the Status quo then off you pop.

When a border poll arrives you can campaign against it like the rest of the Partitionists.

You say it like it is a bad thing. It is not as if I am wearing a Meath jersey. The fact is partition has never effected me. Never has, never will.
Tá Gaeilge agam Is Éireannach mé, agus tá muinín agam asam féin.

I don't need to pretend to care about a line on map - to counterbalance an immersion in British culture. People like that are hypocrites and I see them for what they are. Sorry!

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well they could. Seemingly.

Poor GDG, I hope he can help out with all the unionist pogroms we're gonna have to set up.

Have to say a border poll would be fascinating just to see who partitionists align themselves to.
Gonna take a lot of popcorn to watch that.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have to say a border poll would be fascinating just to see who partitionists align themselves to.
Gonna take a lot of popcorn to watch that.

Finglas's own Manhattan popcorn of course.

We can't be having any of that British KP stuff.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Finglas's own Manhattan popcorn of course.

We can't be having any of that British KP stuff.

I'll ate any popcorn I choose! Tiocaigh Ár Kernels!

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You say it like it is a bad thing. It is not as if I am wearing a Meath jersey. The fact is partition has never effected me. Never has, never will.
Tá Gaeilge agam Is Éireannach mé, agus tá muinín agam asam féin.

I don't need to pretend to care about a line on map - to counterbalance an immersion in British culture. People like that are hypocrites and I see them for what they are. Sorry!

You say you don't care about lines on a map and yet you're a Dublin GAA supporter? Surely that's hypocritical given the very essence of the organisation of the GAA are lines on a map, whether counties or parishes.

---

Some of us do care about the lines on a map. They matter.

And you can campaign against reunification when the day comes.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have to say a border poll would be fascinating just to see who partitionists align themselves to.
Gonna take a lot of popcorn to watch that.

Does bother me either way - once people are not killing each other.
Besides the Brexit argument which is recent. I cannot see a good argument for a UI. The logic just seemed to be it is an island it should be united...just because.

When the reality is it was the IRA who caused partition in the first place.
If there was no 1916. Ireland would probably be United now with its own self governance in The Commonwealth.
Plus the only people to have ever United Ireland in history was the British. Before them it was a series of clans with plots of land. Not a nation.

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Does bother me either way - once people are not killing each other.
Besides the Brexit argument which is recent. I cannot see a good argument for a UI. The logic just seemed to be it is an island it should be united...just because.

When the reality is it was the IRA who caused partition in the first place.
If there was no 1916. Ireland would probably be United now with its own self governance in The Commonwealth.
Plus the only people to have ever United Ireland in history was the British. Before them it was a series of clans with plots of land. Not a nation.

It clearly does bother you. Your wittering nonsense is proof of that.

So the Brits created the Irish now? Was this before or after they created Britishness?

Is your goal here to throw enough nonsense to see how much sticks?

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Does bother me either way - once people are not killing each other.
Besides the Brexit argument which is recent. I cannot see a good argument for a UI. The logic just seemed to be it is an island it should be united...just because.

When the reality is it was the IRA who caused partition in the first place.
If there was no 1916. Ireland would probably be United now with its own self governance in The Commonwealth.
Plus the only people to have ever United Ireland in history was the British. Before them it was a series of clans with plots of land. Not a nation.

You know what to do then...vote against it.

I have given multiple reasons why I think it is a good idea. I will be voting for it.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You say you don't care about lines on a map and yet you're a Dublin GAA supporter? Surely that's hypocritical given the very essence of the organisation of the GAA are lines on a map, whether counties or parishes.

---

Some of us do care about the lines on a map. They matter.

And you can campaign against reunification when the day comes.

It is not hypocritical I am realistic to know those counties were formed by the British - so they made GAA counties possible.

https://www.historyireland.com/early-modern-history-1500-1700/geographical-loyalty-counties-palatinates-boroughs-and-ridings/

As for THE line on the map makes no odds, it is just in your head really. There is no border checkpoints any more.

Randy Archer

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Does bother me either way - once people are not killing each other.
Besides the Brexit argument which is recent. I cannot see a good argument for a UI. The logic just seemed to be it is an island it should be united...just because.

When the reality is it was the IRA who caused partition in the first place.
If there was no 1916. Ireland would probably be United now with its own self governance in The Commonwealth.
Plus the only people to have ever United Ireland in history was the British. Before them it was a series of clans with plots of land. Not a nation.

The British arising around in 1914 forced some Irish to move away from Home Rule / Dominion Status etc

Sure, dominion status ie a tatted up home rule is what we got , but it was 1916 that made sure any involvement with the Empire and Commonwealth would be short lived

**** the North , they sat on their arses

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is not hypocritical I am realistic to know those counties were formed by the British - so they made GAA counties possible.

https://www.historyireland.com/early-modern-history-1500-1700/geographical-loyalty-counties-palatinates-boroughs-and-ridings/

As for THE line on the map makes no odds, it is just in your head really. There is no border checkpoints any more.

How is knowing that the "British" came up with the Irish counties making you "realistic"?

Anglo-Norman and English perhaps... British though?

Would we have been incapable of coming up with some other organisational structure for our games?

I'm a surveyor and geographer, the lines on the map very much make "odds".

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You know what to do then...vote against it.

I have given multiple reasons why I think it is a good idea. I will be voting for it.

I can understand your logic you see given your family background. And the atmosphere in a border county during the troubles. There is always going to be a few like that. So voting for a UI is not seen a choice but a birthright.

But as Dublin person who who used to just say I was for a UI without really thinking it through. I feel the issue is much more complex than either side of the border likes to paint it. Plus it will only stir up a hornets nest. Not worth it. If SF had some balls they would consider a commonwealth option as a move towards a UI then it could be the start of something. Real concession and compromise.

Randy Archer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You know what to do then...vote against it.

I have given multiple reasons why I think it is a good idea. I will be voting for it.

Have you **** !

Vague and completely unsupported air farts about the economy that you refused to back up . Views that you have zero qualification to make. Typical simplistic council estate rubbish you get from all barstoolers

Picking mushrooms if more your line that waffling about the economic and legal complexities

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I can understand your logic you see given your family background. And the atmosphere in a border county during the troubles. There is always going to be a few like that. So voting for a UI is not seen a choice but a birthright.

But as Dublin person who who used to just say I was for a UI without really thinking it through. I feel the issue is much more complex than either side of the border likes to paint it. Plus it will only stir up a hornets nest. Not worth it. If SF had some balls they would consider a commonwealth option as a move towards a UI then it could be the start of something.

"In your opinion..."

---

Your entire circular argument seems to just boil down to, it might be hard and sure Nationalist aspirations aren't as valuable as Unionists' and let's rejoin the Commonwealth for no apparent reason.

FrancieBrady

Randy Archer wrote: »

Have you **** !

Vague and completely unsupported air farts about the economy that you refused to back up . Views that you have zero qualification to make. Typical simplistic council estate rubbish you get from all barstoolers

Where's your figures Randy?

Never seen you offer any, just plenty of invective and insults.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

"In your opinion..."

Obviously they are my opinions just as you give yours. I feel it is not necessary to state as that is the very nature of boards.ie.

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Obviously they are my opinions just as you give yours. I feel it is not necessary to state as that is the very nature of boards.ie.

And the rest of my post?

It's necessary to state opinions vs statements of fact.

Your posting style lends itself to possibly being interpreted as something which is fact.

It's important not to mix the two you would think.