How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Your entire circular argument seems to just boil down to, it might be hard and sure Nationalist aspirations aren't as valuable as Unionists' let's rejoin the Commonwealth for no apparent reason.

Not true I mentioned the hypocrisy of Republicans whose sole expression of Irishness is a call for a UI - while immersing in British culture.
Furthermore Ireland (the whole island) could join the British Commonwealth as a UI and a Republic.
Some of Unionists aspirations would be fulfilled because there is a loose tie to Britain and some of nationalists aspirations would be fulfilled because there would be a UI - A Republic.

When India became a Republic in 1950 they wanted to stay in the Commonwealth

It would accept the British Sovereign as a 'symbol of the free association of its independent member nations and as such the Head of the Commonwealth'

I suppose it is a bit similar to De Valera's 'external association' concept. It is less distant though.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

And the rest of my post?

It's necessary to state opinions vs statements of fact.

Your posting style lends itself to possibly being interpreted as something which is fact.

It's important not to mix the two you would think.

You seem to be very wound up all together about it. As I said it does not effect me I am comfortable in my sense of Irishness.
I don't need to be anti-English or hate the Brits to be Irish, or whinge about a line on a map that is hundreds of miles away from where I live. I'm grand. Simple as that.

I can see Francie Brady's logic in wanting to change the lines on a map. He was reared on it, could see nothing else, lived beside it.

But it is not going effect people in Dublin/Cork/Kerry etc besides having to pay more taxes to fund another 6 counties - pay for security etc etc.

maccored

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You seemed to be very wound up all together about it. As I said it does not effect me I am comfortable in my sense of Irishness.
I don't need to be anti-English or hate the Brits to be Irish, or whinge about a line on a map that is hundreds of miles away from where I live. I'm grand. Simple as that.

I can see Francie Brady's logic in wanting to change the lines on a map. He was reared on it, could see nothing else, lived beside it.

But it is not going effect people in Dublin/Cork/Kerry etc besides having to pay more taxes to fund another 6 counties - pay for security etc etc.

I think thats a very very simplistic view of it. It cannot be a case of the south buying in the north. thats just stupid and a very lazy way to think of it. SF have asked for nationwide discussions to figure out what do we want as a country - thats the first step ... not waffling on about paying for security

Also, you may as well say as 'Im alright Jack, i never had to deal with any of the consequences of what was happening so i dont give a **** about those who did and still do'.

if thats the case dont bother interacting in threads about the north

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But you built this strawman on the back of no one giving a crap about your WUM-ing post about Mr Storey.

And you're still peddling it.

Honestly, does it not concern you that the tacit withdrawals from the AIA to the DSD to the GFA not make you want to embrace a brighter future away from the ones who spurn you?

Unrequited love is a terrible thing.

It’s quite funny actually how you will do anything other than answer the question. When I think of the range questions that were/are posed at me, and the endless harking back to ‘loyalist collusion’, British oppression, etc, etc; and suddenly you want this thread to be only about the future in its purest sense.
I smell a rat.
But sure the very fact no one will answer the question, is a pretty solid answer in itself

downcow

maccored wrote: »

I think thats a very very simplistic view of it. It cannot be a case of the south buying in the north. thats just stupid and a very lazy way to think of it. SF have asked for nationwide discussions to figure out what do we want as a country - thats the first step ... not waffling on about paying for security

Also, you may as well say as 'Im alright Jack, i never had to deal with any of the consequences of what was happening so i dont give a **** about those who did and still do'.

if thats the case dont bother interacting in threads about the north

A very strange term to use if you genuinely wanted Unionists involved in the discussion. I can only interpret it two ways either 1) they are referring to the whole Island as one nation, which is factually incorrect as well as very offensive
or 2) they think the discussion only needs to take place south and west of the border.
Which do you think it is?

gormdubhgorm

maccored wrote: »

I think thats a very very simplistic view of it. It cannot be a case of the south buying in the north. thats just stupid and a very lazy way to think of it. SF have asked for nationwide discussions to figure out what do we want as a country - thats the first step ... not waffling on about paying for security

Also, you may as well say as 'Im alright Jack, i never had to deal with any of the consequences of what was happening so i dont give a **** about those who did and still do'.

if thats the case dont bother interacting in threads about the north

I am also of the opinion that many supporters of those calling for border poll (in the ROI) identify more with British culture than Irish culture - in thier day to day lives. It seems they only want a UI just to sound Irish. Paying for this is also a practical concern - it cannot be all aspirational. Plus the last I heard the troubles were over?

Yeah_Right

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You know what to do then...vote against it.

I have given multiple reasons why I think it is a good idea. I will be voting for it.

Really??? I have read through the 2 threads on this topic and haven't seen that. Well apart from the rainbows and leprechaun "feelings" type of reasons. Could you put up a link to the posts that have multiple well-thought out reasons (that aren't based on emotion) why a UI is a good idea.

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Really??? I have read through the 2 threads on this topic and haven't seen that. Well apart from the rainbows and leprechaun "feelings" type of reasons. Could you put up a link to the posts that have multiple well-thought out reasons (that aren't based on emotion) why a UI is a good idea.

You may read the thread again then.
Multiple times I have given my reasons.

And let me let you in on a wee secret, my vote is worth just as much as yours or anybody elses.

gormdubhgorm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Really??? I have read through the 2 threads on this topic and haven't seen that. Well apart from the rainbows and leprechaun "feelings" type of reasons. Could you put up a link to the posts that have multiple well-thought out reasons (that aren't based on emotion) why a UI is a good idea.

Exactly. He could not tell me what Irishness is to him. Which to me seems to be a key tenet of the whole border poll/UI issue (for those of similar persuasion to Francie in particular)

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Exactly. He could not tell me what Irishness is to him. Which to me seems to be a key tenet of the whole border poll/UI issue (for those of similar persuasion to Francie in particular)

I'm Irish gormdubh...so are you, so are all those born on this island of Ireland

jm08

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am also of the opinion that many supporters of those calling for border poll (in the ROI) identify more with British culture than Irish culture - in thier day to day lives. It seems they only want a UI just to sound Irish. Paying for this is also a practical concern - it cannot be all aspirational. Plus the last I heard the troubles were over?

When you say 'identify with British culture than Irish culture' what do you mean? |That they like soccer, but don't like hurling? Or hate Irish dancing, but love English folk dancing? Can't stand Yeats, but love Wordsworth? Think Newgrange is crap, but Stonehenge is the business? You much prefer 'Swing Low' to the The Fields of Athenry?

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

It’s quite funny actually how you will do anything other than answer the question. When I think of the range questions that were/are posed at me, and the endless harking back to ‘loyalist collusion’, British oppression, etc, etc; and suddenly you want this thread to be only about the future in its purest sense.
I smell a rat.
But sure the very fact no one will answer the question, is a pretty solid answer in itself

....except I did answer your question. You didn't like that the answer didn't give you any grounds to hark on about how oppressed you are, so you skipped past it.

It's funny how often you claim, 'no one' has answered one of your questions when the reply you receive doesn't fit in with the wee pre-planned debate points you've worked out.

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

When you say 'identify with British culture than Irish culture' what do you mean? |That they like soccer, but don't like hurling? Or hate Irish dancing, but love English folk dancing? Can't stand Yeats, but love Wordsworth? Think Newgrange is crap, but Stonehenge is the business? You much prefer 'Swing Low' to the The Fields of Athenry?

It is interesting that his cultural attachment is so perilous that catching a sight of Eastenders would disinherit him, isn't it?

I think it is another byproduct of inferiority myself, as you allude to above.

Yeah_Right

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm Irish gormdubh...so are you, so are all those born on this island of Ireland

Come on. We're not going to go down this rabbit hole again. I have already proven to you (and others) that this statement is wrong. I even used Irish rugby players to show you how stupid a blanket statement like that was.

gormdubhgorm

jm08 wrote: »

When you say 'identify with British culture than Irish culture' what do you mean? |That they like soccer, but don't like hurling? Or hate Irish dancing, but love English folk dancing? Can't stand Yeats, but love Wordsworth? Think Newgrange is crap, but Stonehenge is the business? You much prefer 'Swing Low' to the The Fields of Athenry?

It means many working class Dublin people who profess to be Republicans -
Have little or no Irish - only speak English, are immersed in British music, entertainment shows, and say 'we' for British soccer teams.

Yet this are the types who like to be seen to be calling for a UI as it is thier only form that they are able to express perceived 'Irishness' in front of peers. Hypocritical in my view.

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Come on. We're not going to go down this rabbit hole again. I have already proven to you (and others) that this statement is wrong. I even used Irish rugby players to show you how stupid a blanket statement like that was.

Are you so arrogant that you think just because you say something, that is it?

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm Irish gormdubh...so are you, so are all those born on this island of Ireland

Not true either as many who are born on this island view themselves as British and identify as such. Just because it is an island does not simply mean that they are the same Irish as you would term yourself. It hardly helps the unionist beleif that they would be included in a UI does it?

Which is why I think Commonwealth should be considered as an option to create a UI.

munsterlegend

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Come on. We're not going to go down this rabbit hole again. I have already proven to you (and others) that this statement is wrong. I even used Irish rugby players to show you how stupid a blanket statement like that was.

The clue is in Irish rugby players.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not true either as many who are born on this island view themselves as British and identify as such. Just because it is an island does not simply mean that they are the same Irish as you would term yourself. It hardly helps the unionist beleif that they would be included in a UI does it?

Which is why I think Commonwealth should be considered as an option to create a UI.

I have zero problem what they identify as. Just as I have no problem with the Irish born children of Latvians, Russians, New Zealanders, Aussies, identifying as they wish either.

FrancieBrady

munsterlegend wrote: »

The clue is in Irish rugby players.

Slip of the tongue you reckon?

munsterlegend

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not true either as many who are born on this island view themselves as British and identify as such. Just because it is an island does not simply mean that they are the same Irish as you would term yourself. It hardly helps the unionist beleif that they would be included in a UI does it?

Which is why I think Commonwealth should be considered as an option to create a UI.

Might not be the same Irish but a different strand of it. Plenty countries have outside cultural influences. We still have our own unique Irish music culture or maybe you don’t get out of Dublin enough. Look at every gaa pitch in Ireland at the weekend ( outside of Covid) playing a native game filled with children. Very few countries have a native game outside of football that is thriving like gaa is. The cùl camp is full to capacity every summer.

FrancieBrady

munsterlegend wrote: »

Might not be the same Irish but a different strand of it. Plenty countries have outside cultural influences. We still have our own unique Irish music culture or maybe you don’t get out of Dublin enough. Look at every gaa pitch in Ireland at the weekend ( outside of Covid) playing a native game filled with children. Very few countries have a native game outside of football that is thriving like gaa is. The cùl camp is full to capacity every summer.

Not to mention our contribution to the backbone cultural pursuits of literature, poetry and theatre where we have a distinct recognisable place in the world and punch way above our weight.
We steadfastly plough our own concerns and furrows in those fields. A distinctly 'Irish' output.
Colm Tobin like Corrie too!

Hamsterchops

From a Southern media perspective, all island unification is like an unstoppable juggernaut, fuelled with republican diesel (Sinn Fein) which cannot be slowed down or stopped......

So if there isn't a "United" Ireland by the end of this decade I'd be amazed, that is, if all the talk and hyoe is to be believed.

With the ever dwindling Unionist population in a nose dive and with the booming Nationalist population on the up and up, how long can it be before NI votes to leave the United Kingdom?

Wonder what the (unbiased) thoughts are from up North. Yes we know the Shinners will Big-up a United Ireland at any chance, and Unionists will dismiss it without even blinking an eye, but I wonder what the reality is?

Randy Archer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where's your figures Randy?

Never seen you offer any, just plenty of invective and insults.

YOU are the person making the claims , yet after several calls from me and several others , you flat out refuse to explain them or even give specifics . It’s for YOU and especially when you now reclaim that you made these “arguments” to back them up

But ,nah, feign ignorance (well, you won’t be faking it )and ignore what has being put to you , is more your style . Shinners trained you well

It was even pointed out that our Taoiseach and our retail sector were crying about lads going over the boarder for shopping . It was pointed out that civil service on both sides will get the chop . All counties will be fighting for grants etc but your best cry was “I’m alright jack”

Yeah_Right

munsterlegend wrote: »

The clue is in Irish rugby players.

Is Jamie Heaslip Israeli? According to Francie he is.

jm08

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It means many working class Dublin people who profess to be Republicans -
Have little or no Irish - only speak English, are immersed in British music, entertainment shows, and say 'we' for British soccer teams.

Yet this are the types who like to be seen to be calling for a UI as it is thier only form that they are able to express perceived 'Irishness' in front of peers. Hypocritical in my view.

I think you are reading too much into how working class Dubs think. Who cares if they refer to their English soccer team as 'we'. They are frequently accused of being glory hunters by supporting only the top teams like ManU & Liverpool. Many of them would also have Spanish teams as well. Does Mick Wallace supporting Juventus make him any less of an Irishman bearing in mind that he funds Wexford Youths? Seriously, support for a soccer team or liking a particular band even though they are British doesn't make you less Irish. You seem to define Irishness on how how you like/dislike British/English. Rather like loyalists in NI whose whole identity seems to be based on how much they hate Irish people.

munsterlegend

Hamsterchops wrote: »

From a Southern media perspective, all island unification is like an unstoppable juggernaut fuelled with republican diesel (Sinn Fein) which cannot be slowed down or stopped......

So if there isn't a "United" Ireland by the end of this decade I'd be amazed, that is, if all the talk and hyoe is to be believed.

With the ever dwindling Unionist population in s nose dive and with the booming Nationalist population on the up and up, how long can it be before NI votes to leave the United Kingdom?

Wonder what the (unbiased) thoughts are from up North. Yes we know the Shinners will Big-up a United Ireland at any chance, and Unionists will dismiss it without even blinking an eye, but I wonder what the reality is?

A Scottish independence vote is more likely in the short term than a border poll. It will prove impossible to ignore a democratically elected party with a large majority constantly seeking one.

FrancieBrady

Randy Archer wrote: »

YOU are the person making the claims , yet after several calls from me and several others , you flat out refuse to explain them or even give specifics . It’s for YOU and especially when you now reclaim that you made these “arguments” to back them up

But ,nah, feign ignorance (well, you won’t be faking it )and ignore what has being put to you , is more your style . Shinners trained you well

It was even pointed out that our Taoiseach and our retail sector were crying about lads going over the boarder for shopping . It was pointed out that civil service on both sides will get the chop . All counties will be fighting for grants etc but your best cry was “I’m alright jack”

The reason nobody engages with you Randy are all in the above post.

Stop glossing over posts and picking out bits of them that you can use as invective.

I have said a lot more than 'I'm alright Jack'.

Randy Archer

maccored wrote: »

I think thats a very very simplistic view of it. It cannot be a case of the south buying in the north. thats just stupid and a very lazy way to think of it. SF have asked for nationwide discussions to figure out what do we want as a country - thats the first step ... not waffling on about paying for security

Also, you may as well say as 'Im alright Jack, i never had to deal with any of the consequences of what was happening so i dont give a **** about those who did and still do'.

if thats the case dont bother interacting in threads about the north

Oh great , we got wafflers brigade of the breathe the proddies out to achieve UI and now you talk horse **** about simplistic views lol

How’s the North going to make money and pay its way ?

Sinn Fein have done no such thing either ! They have been pretty silent on their precise vision , precisely no different to the likes of Francie and the Bhoys . “Brits Out” don’t butter the parsnips !

Your tax liability and business interests are clearly slim and **** all . You are clearly incapable of grasping economics and how the wheels of governance work , talking bollox about I’m alright jack !

If anyone need to refrain from commenting or ya you ! About the north ? Eh , NO the thread also concerns The South ! It will be us ie people who pay significant tax and not council estate corner boys who live on welfare ie Sinn Fein supporters , who it effects more

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Is Jamie Heaslip Israeli? According to Francie he is.

If it says on his birth cert that he was born in Israel...then yes, he is. Is Andy Townsend English? Yes he is, of Irish parents...because they were born on the island of Ireland.

It isn't a threat or an impediment...just a fact of geography. This island is called Ireland, when that changes so also will birthplaces.