How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Randy Archer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The reason nobody engages with you Randy are all in the above post.

Stop glossing over posts and picking out bits of them that you can use as invective.

I have said a lot more than 'I'm alright Jack'.

The reason you don’t respond is because you haven’t a clue . You are way out of your league ! You ain’t man enough . Your argument gets ripped to pieces just like every Shinner when they talk economics . Go back to singing rebel songs and stopping leading the gullible like Blaaz / runaway into thinking you have a clue

Spare us the bull**** attempt to take the high ground and play the victim .

Glossing over posts ? Picking bits ? Lol ! What actually taking everything what you said word for word . Waffler, you can’t even point out what I said that was unfair or wrong

You had your chance to stand your ground and you choked. Nordies like you , no wonder Southeners don’t and can’t take ye seriously . Back into your lane

Stop crying . Get a new hobby. 16 hours a day posting on the same topic and talking nonsense is not healthy

Randy Archer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If it says on his birth cert that he was born in Israel...then yes, he is. Is Andy Townsend English? Yes he is, of Irish parents...because they were born on the island of Ireland.

It isn't a threat or an impediment...just a fact of geography. This island is called Ireland, when that changes so also will birthplaces.

Jamie Heaslip was born in Israel , while his FATHER , an officer in the IRISH Army was stationed over there , serving the UN on the State .

Under Irish law , there’s absolutely zero question as to Jamie’s nationality , you space cadet

Stop talking about Ill informed rubbish for once

Our LAWS and Not geography dictates nationality . A child born to Nigerian parents , in Ireland in 2020 does not automatically mean he or she is Irish at all

FrancieBrady

Randy Archer wrote: »

The reason you don’t respond is because you haven’t a clue . You are way out of your league ! You ain’t man enough . Your argument gets ripped to pieces just like every Shinner when they talk economics . Go back to singing rebel songs and stopping leading the gullible like Blaaz / runaway into thinking you have a clue

Spare us the bull**** attempt to take the high ground and play the victim .

Glossing over posts ? Picking bits ? Lol ! What actually taking everything what you said word for word . Waffler, you can’t even point out what I said that was unfair or wrong

You had your chance to stand your ground and you choked. Nordies like you , no wonder Southeners don’t and can’t take ye seriously . Back into your lane

Stop crying . Get a new hobby. 16 hours a day posting on the same topic and talking nonsense is not healthy

As eloquent a proving of my point as could be.

Tokyo

Mod: @Randy Archer - I'm genuinely wondering if you can debate a point without ranting about it. Either way, take 48 hours away from the thread to figure out how to. Next time it's a permanent threadban.

Fionn1952

Randy Archer wrote: »

The reason you don’t respond is because you haven’t a clue . You are way out of your league ! You ain’t man enough . Your argument gets ripped to pieces just like every Shinner when they talk economics . Go back to singing rebel songs and stopping leading the gullible like Blaaz / runaway into thinking you have a clue

Spare us the bull**** attempt to take the high ground and play the victim .

Glossing over posts ? Picking bits ? Lol ! What actually taking everything what you said word for word . Waffler, you can’t even point out what I said that was unfair or wrong

You had your chance to stand your ground and you choked. Nordies like you , no wonder Southeners don’t and can’t take ye seriously . Back into your lane

Stop crying . Get a new hobby. 16 hours a day posting on the same topic and talking nonsense is not healthy

You're going to give yourself an aneurysm there pal.

If you don't think anyone bar unemployed SF supporters will vote for a UI, then you should be confident that it will never happen.....so why get so worked up about it?

If you're not worked up and that's just how you generally speak to people, well that would be even more concerning.

Take a deep breath, have a nice cuppa and relax. It'll do you the world of good.

Hamsterchops

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

... either as many who are born on this island view themselves as British and identify as such. Just because it is an island does not simply mean that they are the same Irish as you would term yourself. It hardly helps the unionist beleif that they would be included in a UI does it?

Which is why I think Commonwealth should be considered as an option to create a UI.

Good post and very true.

FrancieBrady

Randy Archer wrote: »

Jamie Heaslip was born in Israel , while his FATHER , an officer in the IRISH Army was stationed over there , serving the UN on the State .

Under Irish law , there’s absolutely zero question as to Jamie’s nationality , you space cadet

Stop talking about Ill informed rubbish for once

Our LAWS and Not geography dictates nationality . A child born to Nigerian parents , in Ireland in 2020 does not automatically mean he or she is Irish at all

Laws relating to citizenship can change at any time.
You are confusing citizenship with geography.

Take the Emma DeSouza case...it can be argued all the way to the ECHR...whatever the legal outcome it will never change the fact she was born in Ireland.

downcow

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am also of the opinion that many supporters of those calling for border poll (in the ROI) identify more with British culture than Irish culture - in thier day to day lives. It seems they only want a UI just to sound Irish. Paying for this is also a practical concern - it cannot be all aspirational. Plus the last I heard the troubles were over?

What you say rings true. Throughout the troubles there was no more vociferous supporters of the IRAs murder campaign than a small element of Irish America. So removed from reality they didn't have a clue, but to send money over to buy guns to kill my community helped them feel Irish

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

....except I did answer your question. You didn't like that the answer didn't give you any grounds to hark on about how oppressed you are, so you skipped past it.

It's funny how often you claim, 'no one' has answered one of your questions when the reply you receive doesn't fit in with the wee pre-planned debate points you've worked out.

The question was very clear. Do you accept the levels of collusion that was going on between the British military the IRA? And how do you feel when the dogs in the street know that many of those who remained at the top and on power in the Republican movement were the payment of the British military? And of course all those in power knew it?

gormdubhgorm

jm08 wrote: »

I think you are reading too much into how working class Dubs think. Who cares if they refer to their English soccer team as 'we'. They are frequently accused of being glory hunters by supporting only the top teams like ManU & Liverpool. Many of them would also have Spanish teams as well. Does Mick Wallace supporting Juventus make him any less of an Irishman bearing in mind that he funds Wexford Youths? Seriously, support for a soccer team or liking a particular band even though they are British doesn't make you less Irish. You seem to define Irishness on how how you like/dislike British/English. Rather like loyalists in NI whose whole identity seems to be based on how much they hate Irish people.

But this is the point I am making the fellas I mentioned sole identity of Irishness seems to be how much they have to say they hate the Brits - UI etc.

I have some sympathy for the likes of poster Francie Brady wanting a UI. Border county - background and so on. Even though he cannot define his sense of Irishness.

But those fecking eejit's of 'Republican's' from Dublin with thier Man Utd tattoo's etc. Zero sense of irony and zero thought's on the practicalities of a UI and what it would actually mean. Just wanting to appear like hardshaws.

From my perspective the basis of all culture begins with language. A turn of phrase that you would never hear in English really gets into the mind of a people. Yet most of the knuckle draggers Irish Republican Dubs (for example) prefer to base it on a line on a map. Much easier to crow about that for them.
I have zero respect for them.

downcow

Hamsterchops wrote: »

From a Southern media perspective, all island unification is like an unstoppable juggernaut, fuelled with republican diesel (Sinn Fein) which cannot be slowed down or stopped......

So if there isn't a "United" Ireland by the end of this decade I'd be amazed, that is, if all the talk and hyoe is to be believed.

With the ever dwindling Unionist population in a nose dive and with the booming Nationalist population on the up and up, how long can it be before NI votes to leave the United Kingdom?

Wonder what the (unbiased) thoughts are from up North. Yes we know the Shinners will Big-up a United Ireland at any chance, and Unionists will dismiss it without even blinking an eye, but I wonder what the reality is?

do I need to post the graph of all the elections for the past decade to show you how far you are away from reality. Or maybe you're going to say that the election results cannot be relied upon

_Bow_Wow_

I don't think we will ever see it in the next 20 years or so, we may see the North working alot closer with the south but it won't be an official reunification.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But this is the point I am making the fellas I mentioned sole identity of Irishness seems to be how much they have to say they hate the Brits - UI etc.

I have some sympathy for the likes of poster Francie Brady wanting a UI. Border county - background and so on. Even though he cannot define his sense of Irishness.

But those fecking eejit's of 'Republican's' from Dublin with thier Man Utd tattoo's etc. Zero sense of irony and zero thought's on the practicalities of a UI and what it would actually mean. Just wanting to appear like hardshaws.

From my perspective the basis of all culture begins with language. A turn of phrase that you would never hear in English really gets into the mind of a people. Yet most of the knuckle draggers Irish Republican Dubs (for example) prefer to base it on a line on a map. Much easier to crow about that for them.
I have zero respect for them.

Your 'sample' is tiny in the scale of things. To the point of ridiculousness.

I am Irish, I don't need to describe it or defend it to you gormdubh...which is slightly different to 'cannot define his Irishness'.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am Irish, I don't need to describe it or defend it to you gormdubh...which is slightly different to 'cannot define his Irishness'.

Sounds like the same to me Francie. I am pretty sure if you could, you would

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your 'sample' is tiny in the scale of things. To the point of ridiculousness.

I am Irish, I don't need to describe it or defend it to you gormdubh...which is slightly different to 'cannot define his Irishness'.

I have bumped in those types plenty of times same story - republican barstoolers.

--
You didn't answer the question. I incorrectly assumed that you could define your Irishness or were proud to say what it is - as Republican who wants a UI.

I have already what Irishness means to me - language. A line on a map is not going to change that. It is one of the things I believe Pearse was spot on about.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

It still holds true today.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Sounds like the same to me Francie. I am pretty sure if you could, you would

You did downcow and I think you didn't define one distinctive thing about you that made you 'British'.

gormdubhgorm

downcow wrote: »

Sounds like the same to me Francie. I am pretty sure if you could, you would

I bet you could say what defines you as British, language English - The Royals - British culture.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

The question was very clear. Do you accept the levels of collusion that was going on between the British military the IRA? And how do you feel when the dogs in the street know that many of those who remained at the top and on power in the Republican movement were the payment of the British military? And of course all those in power knew it?

Yup, and like I said, I already answered it, Downcow.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I bet you could say what defines you as British, language English - The Royals - British culture.

Language is NOT culture per se Gormdubh.

If you are going to persist with this discussion try and actually talk about what culture is.

We use the English language in a different and distinctive way to others. Americans use it differently again. We use langauge as a tool in our cultural expression. It isn't a cultural signifier.

The loss of our native language has fed into our culture though, and we have explored that in some of our most famous cultural output.

eire4

munsterlegend wrote: »

A Scottish independence vote is more likely in the short term than a border poll. It will prove impossible to ignore a democratically elected party with a large majority constantly seeking one.

That is almost a certainty. The next Scottish assembly elections are May 2021 so less then a year away and just months after the end of the UK's transition period since they left the EU. Already the hardline stance from London has seen support for independence rising. The last poll recently put it at 54-46 yes. The SNP will no doubt campaign on getting a new independence referendum and assuming their electoral success of recent years holds and I have seen no indication it will not then they will have a clear mandate for independence and looking to rejoin the EU. Which I think will be prominent in their election pledges as well. But bottom line that situation is likely to be at fever pitch within 12 months of today and although London has to agree to the referendum I really think the more hardline stance they keep taking they will just drive support for Scottish independence higher the more they say no. So all things considered a Scottish independence referendum is very likely to come ahead of a vote on Irish reunification. Although I think a successful vote for Scottish independence will also have positive effects in Ireland in terms of Irish reunification.

Fionn1952

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I bet you could say what defines you as British, language English - The Royals - British culture.

Growing up in the North, my schooling experience with the language was fairly minimal. I've improved it later in life, but I'd still have a worse command than a decent secondary school student here. Does this alone bar me from, 'Irish culture' in your eyes?

Despite the fact that I've spent a lifetime playing Irish Traditional music, and recorded quite a lot of original folk and trad style music? Or that I make my soda bread and boxty the same way it has been made on the maternal side of my family for generations?

Even though I wasn't up to much at the game myself, I've been a lifelong fan of the GAA and though my county isn't the most skilled, I've spent many an afternoon stood in the rain watching us get absolutely battered, club and county.

How about my love of Irish mythology and history? My interest in Irish theatre?

That being said, outside Irish sport, I also watch English, German, French and Italian soccer, English and French rugby and NFL among other sports. I listen to bands from across the world, I'm fond of David Attenborough documentaries on the television, and have a soft spot for It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia....apparently that cancels the rest out and makes me some sort of British/French/German/Spanish/American hybrid.

Are you so insecure in yourself that you feel one has to be exposed exclusively to Irish culture to be Irish enough in your eyes?

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Growing up in the North, my schooling experience with the language was fairly minimal. I've improved it later in life, but I'd still have a worse command than a decent secondary school student here. Does this alone bar me from, 'Irish culture' in your eyes?

Despite the fact that I've spent a lifetime playing Irish Traditional music, and recorded quite a lot of original folk and trad style music? Or that I make my soda bread and boxty the same way it has been made on the maternal side of my family for generations?

Even though I wasn't up to much at the game myself, I've been a lifelong fan of the GAA and though my county isn't the most skilled, I've spent many an afternoon stood in the rain watching us get absolutely battered, club and county.

How about my love of Irish mythology and history? My interest in Irish theatre?

That being said, outside Irish sport, I also watch English, German, French and Italian soccer, English and French rugby and NFL among other sports. I listen to bands from across the world, I'm fond of David Attenborough documentaries on the television, and have a soft spot for It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia....apparently that cancels the rest out and makes me some sort of British/French/German/Spanish/American hybrid.

Are you so insecure in yourself that you feel one has to be exposed exclusively to Irish culture to be Irish enough in your eyes?

It is a theory born completely out of a deeply entrenched inferiority complex sadly. He/she is not alone. A few other poster will resort to this type of self degradation too.

gormdubhgorm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

.
Are you so insecure in yourself that you feel one has to be exposed exclusively to Irish culture to be Irish enough in your eyes?

Ah so we are not even in the same state that explains a lot. Yes you do have to be exposed to Irish culture to be Irish - otherwise Irish-Americans would be Irish. As I have said down south as you would call it many identify more with British culture yet claim to be Irish and Republican. At least you are trying your best.

But I think the irony that you are in this position in the first place is more because of the IRA rather than the British, who engineered a chain of events which caused the border.

Fionn1952

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Ah so we are not even in the same state that explains a lot. Yes you do have to be exposed to Irish culture to be Irish - otherwise Irish-Americans would be Irish. As I have said down south as you would call it many identify more with British culture yet claim to be Irish and Republican. At least you are trying your best.

But I think the irony that you are in this position in the first place is more because of the IRA rather than the British, who engineered a chain of events which caused the border.

You know, I wouldn't say, 'Down South'....I'd say, 'my home'.

Born in Fermanagh, living in Meath. Want to try again there, pal?

Of course you have to be exposed to Irish culture. You're perfectly aware this is a straw man of course. My question was about having to be EXCLUSIVELY exposed to Irish culture.

Are you going to suddenly stop being Irish if you watch an English soccer game tomorrow and discover that you quite like it?

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Language is NOT culture per se Gormdubh.

If you are going to persist with this discussion try and actually talk about what culture is.

We use the English language in a different and distinctive way to others. Americans use it differently again. We use langauge as a tool in our cultural expression. It isn't a cultural signifier.

The loss of our native language has fed into our culture though, and we have explored that in some of our most famous cultural output.

Of course it is language is the bedrock of any culture. Plus it shoud be used.
I Know SF attempt to politicize it which is wrong imo.

But language is culture. Every other country in Europe has thier own language that is used properly - and widely. Irish people speak English differently precisely because of the Irish language - Hiberno-English loan words and so on.
I pity people whose main way to feel Irish is to go on about a line on a map. It is pure symbolism when it comes down to it. Line on a map gone - does not change a colonial mindset. It is deep rooted sadly and is the cause of the loss of a lot of Irish culture.

gormdubhgorm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You know, I wouldn't say, 'Down South'....I'd say, 'my home'.

Born in Fermanagh, living in Meath. Want to try again there, pal?

Of course you have to be exposed to Irish culture. You're perfectly aware this is a straw man of course. My question was about having to be EXCLUSIVELY exposed to Irish culture.

Are you going to suddenly stop being Irish if you watch an English soccer game tomorrow and discover that you quite like it?

So technically despite not wanting a border. You live in the royal county with a Queen as Taoiseach . Fair play. It is not a strawman.
Most ardent Republican's are plastic paddies when it comes down to it. And just want to be in a 'gang'. Much more immersed in Brit culture than thier own and roar about UI for the image.

Fionn1952

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But language is culture. Every other country in Europe has thier own language that is used properly

Has anyone told the Belgians, Austrians, Cypriots or Swiss?!

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Of course it is language is the bedrock of any culture. Plus it shoud be used.
I Know SF attempt to politicize it which is wrong imo.

But language is culture. Every other country in Europe has thier own language that is used properly - and widely. Irish people speak English differently precisely because of the Irish language - Hiberno-English loan words and so on.
I pity people whose main way to feel Irish is to go on about a line on a map. It is pure symbolism when it comes down to it. Line on a map gone - does not change a colonial mindset. It is deep rooted sadly and is the cause of the loss of a lot of Irish culture.

Language is a 'tool' of culture. You are wholly wrong.

What are you calling the American fella who speaks English and watches Fawlty Towers?

Cultures morph and change all the time, things are lost and things are gained.

You are a traditionalist with a deeply rooted inferiority complex with a wholly wrong and one dimensional understanding of culture.

Fionn1952

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So technically despite not wanting a border. You live in the royal county with a Queen as Taoiseach . Fair play. It is not a strawman.
Most ardent Republican's are plastic paddies when it comes down to it. And just want to be in a 'gang'. Much more immersed in Brit culture than thier own and roar about UI for the image.

Not only do I live there, I'm bloody married into the Royal County and I've cursed my poor children to carry that burden. Despite herself's claims to Mayo ancestry, I know the Meath won't come out in the wash.

More seriously, most of my social circle would be culturally quite akin to myself, North and South, particularly with the music involvement. The vast majority would identify as Republican, so no I don't buy your unsupported statement that, 'the majority' of ardent Republicans are Plastic Paddies, unless you can actually back that assertion.

I'm not claiming that MY social circle are perfectly representative of the majority by the way. I suspect the reality is somewhere in between the two. I don't feel that your black and white digs at the working class are nearly as insightful and telling as you'd like to think.

gormdubhgorm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Has anyone told the Belgians, Austrians, Cypriots or Swiss?!

Belgians use flemish, the swiss use numerous languages. Austria was part of the Austria was part of the Austria-Hungarian Empire. You do realise that a countries native language does not have to be called after it's nations name?

Ireland's native language happens to be Irish. And English happens to be England's language.
Also Hungary managed to revive Hungarian in 100 years unlike Ireland's pathetic attempt. Anyway my point stands if people focused on language instead of borders the world would be a better place imo. 70.000 people only speak Irish as communication - there is a largee sub with the times.