How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

gormdubhgorm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

NI don't feel that your black and white digs at the working class are nearly as insightful and telling as you'd like to think.

It is where SF aim to get the votes though (in the ROI) And play on ignorance to put pressure on to get the border poll on a UI.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Belgians use flemish, the swiss use numerous languages. Austria was part of the Austria was part of the Austria-Hungarian Empire. You do realise that a countries native language does not have to be called after it's nations name?

.

Exactly...language is a tool of culture.

Ours was wiped out to the extent that it was never going to re-establish as the primary tool of our cultural expression...we had enough to do to survive independence tbh.

We have used the English language well to express ourselves as a distinct cultural voice in the world. Even investigating the loss of the native tongue is a cultural preoccupation distinctly ours.

Try and expand your understanding of culture out beyond soap operas and pro-sport. It really isn't what it's about in truth.

downcow

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I bet you could say what defines you as British, language English - The Royals - British culture.

I have given him a long list, several times, and he is yet to give me any sense of what is identity and culture is about

Fionn1952

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Belgians use flemish, the swiss use numerous languages. Austria was part of the Austria was part of the Austria-Hungarian Empire. You do realise that a countries native language does not have to be called after it's nations name?

Ireland's native language happens to be Irish. And English happens to be England's language.
Also Hungary managed to revive Hungarian in 100 years unlike Ireland's pathetic attempt. Anyway my point stands if people focused on language instead of borders the world would be a better place imo. 70.000 people only speak Irish as communication - there is a largee sub with the times.

Flemish is a Dutch language, not a Belgian one. The Swiss do indeed use a number of languages....the only native one has fewer speakers than Irish. Austria's part in the Austro-Hungarian empire has what to do with their speaking German? And you ignored the Cypriots.

I'm fully aware a country's native language doesn't have to be named for the country, but none of those countries speak their native language, whatever way you try to spin it. According to you, they're not countries at all apparently!

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Yup, and like I said, I already answered it, Downcow.

Maybe you would do me a huge favour and link me to the post with your answer to those questions. I know it's a waste of your time and all that, and yes I'm stupid. But just be the bigger person and give me the link

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Language is NOT culture per se Gormdubh.

If you are going to persist with this discussion try and actually talk about what culture is.

We use the English language in a different and distinctive way to others. Americans use it differently again. We use langauge as a tool in our cultural expression. It isn't a cultural signifier.

The loss of our native language has fed into our culture though, and we have explored that in some of our most famous cultural output.

Careful now Francie. Next you'll be saying the Irish language act is not required

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Growing up in the North, my schooling experience with the language was fairly minimal. I've improved it later in life, but I'd still have a worse command than a decent secondary school student here. Does this alone bar me from, 'Irish culture' in your eyes?

Despite the fact that I've spent a lifetime playing Irish Traditional music, and recorded quite a lot of original folk and trad style music? Or that I make my soda bread and boxty the same way it has been made on the maternal side of my family for generations?

Even though I wasn't up to much at the game myself, I've been a lifelong fan of the GAA and though my county isn't the most skilled, I've spent many an afternoon stood in the rain watching us get absolutely battered, club and county.

How about my love of Irish mythology and history? My interest in Irish theatre?

That being said, outside Irish sport, I also watch English, German, French and Italian soccer, English and French rugby and NFL among other sports. I listen to bands from across the world, I'm fond of David Attenborough documentaries on the television, and have a soft spot for It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia....apparently that cancels the rest out and makes me some sort of British/French/German/Spanish/American hybrid.

Are you so insecure in yourself that you feel one has to be exposed exclusively to Irish culture to be Irish enough in your eyes?

Fair play to you Fionn1952. I genuinely respect you sharing with us some of what is special about your Irishness. Top marks

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Careful now Francie. Next you'll be saying the Irish language act is not required

No, that was exactly why it was required. The language won't die downcow, we are too culturally attached to it and it's artefacts and the art that is still created using it.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Maybe you would do me a huge favour and link me to the post with your answer to those questions. I know it's a waste of your time and all that, and yes I'm stupid. But just be the bigger person and give me the link

I'm not a very prolific poster, Downcow. You would've found it on the first page of my posting history.

I said the following;

I'd suggest you start a thread about Bobby Storey if that's what you'd like to discuss. I'm quite aware of who and what Bobby Storey was, so you won't find me on that thread giving misty eyed tribute like you did with Willie (and continued to do when his supply of weapons came to light).

Likewise with IRA infiltration by British Intelligence. As I wasn't a member of the IRA, it's totally irrelevant to me. As another poster mentioned, it opens up a much bigger can of worms for Unionists than it does for me as a non-violent Republican. Certainly could be an interesting, very wide scoped discussion, but I'd say too far off topic to discuss in detail on this thread.

Either way, you're very clearly trying to provoke reaction under the pretense of, 'just asking questions

munsterlegend

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, that was exactly why it was required. The language won't die downcow, we are too culturally attached to it and it's artefacts and the art that is still created using it.

The language hasn’t been this strong in a 100 years. Gaelscoil’s everywhere and teaching methods miles superior. The fact we speak English also has a lot to do with America. As the saying goes we always looked to Boston rather than Brussels.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Language is a 'tool' of culture. You are wholly wrong.

What are you calling the American fella who speaks English and watches Fawlty Towers?

Cultures morph and change all the time, things are lost and things are gained.

You are a traditionalist with a deeply rooted inferiority complex with a wholly wrong and one dimensional understanding of culture.

So, put the flags out, I somewhat agree with Francie here.
Particularly his comment "Cultures morph and change all the time, things are lost and things are gained"
this is the very reason I think that governments should not put funding into maintaining and developing culture as they understand it. eg in Northern Ireland I think minimal funding should go into the Irish language and the marching band scene. If these things are worth protecting, the communities that love them will ensure they do survive and flourish. Once government gets too involved in funding culture, by its very nature it is deciding what will be the culture in the future.
If the community thinks it is worth preserving then they will preserve it

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So, put the flags out, I somewhat agree with Francie here.
Particularly his comment "Cultures morph and change all the time, things are lost and things are gained"
this is the very reason I think that governments should not put funding into maintaining and developing culture as they understand it. eg in Northern Ireland I think minimal funding should go into the Irish language and the marching band scene. If these things are worth protecting, the communities that love them will ensure they do survive and flourish. Once government gets too involved in funding culture, by its very nature it is deciding what will be the culture in the future.
If the community thinks it is worth preserving then they will preserve it

Apples and oranges downcow. A community cannot preserve and grow a language, it needs infrastructural support and most importantly respect...regardless of what you think of it's users.

General arts funding scheme will support community bands and always has done.

Arts funding responds to need.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'm not a very prolific poster, Downcow. You would've found it on the first page of my posting history.

I said the following;

I'd suggest you start a thread about Bobby Storey if that's what you'd like to discuss. I'm quite aware of who and what Bobby Storey was, so you won't find me on that thread giving misty eyed tribute like you did with Willie (and continued to do when his supply of weapons came to light).

Likewise with IRA infiltration by British Intelligence. As I wasn't a member of the IRA, it's totally irrelevant to me. As another poster mentioned, it opens up a much bigger can of worms for Unionists than it does for me as a non-violent Republican. Certainly could be an interesting, very wide scoped discussion, but I'd say too far off topic to discuss in detail on this thread.

Either way, you're very clearly trying to provoke reaction under the pretense of, 'just asking questions

Okay, fair enough, that is an answer of sorts. I apologise for saying you did not answer

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Apples and oranges downcow. A community cannot preserve and grow a language, it needs infrastructural support and most importantly respect...regardless of what you think of it's users.

General arts funding scheme will support community bands and always has done.

Arts funding responds to need.

Francie I do not have the stats. But I will be shocked if Irish language funding does not outdo funding for the community bands by at least 10 to 1 and more likely 100 to 1

FrancieBrady

munsterlegend wrote: »

The language hasn’t been this strong in a 100 years. Gaelscoil’s everywhere and teaching methods miles superior. The fact we speak English also has a lot to do with America. As the saying goes we always looked to Boston rather than Brussels.

Yeh but, yeh but...people watch Corrie and wear Man U shirts. I agree, the dividends from the resurgence in Irish language will begin to show in a few years imo. We have both a Gael Scoil and an Irish language nursery school here in a town of about 2500. Will have a huge impact.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie I do not have the stats. But I will be shocked if Irish language funding does not outdo funding for the community bands by at least 10 to 1 and more likely 100 to 1

So it should. One is a language the other is a hobby.

munsterlegend

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh but, yeh but...people watch Corrie and wear Man U shirts. I agree, the dividends from the resurgence in Irish language will begin to show in a few years imo. We have both a Gael Scoil and an Irish language nursery school here in a town of about 2500. Will have a huge impact.

As said previously Man United and Liverpool who most Irish support are world brands. Our best players have always gone to England as higher quality professional league. It’s hardly surprising we would watch it then. It doesn’t make us more English just sports mad. Sure Roy Keane alone made flying to Newcastle one of cork airports most popular destinations when managing Sunderland. Supporting our own.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So it should. One is a language the other is a hobby.

Well you see here is where the problem lies. You see everything in my culture as a hobby - and if I'd be completely honest I don't think that word is totally inappropriate. But when people refer to stuff in your culture as a hobby people go ape****. Irish language is every bit as much a hobby as loyalist band music - or for that matter Ulster Scots language/dialect

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Okay, fair enough, that is an answer of sorts. I apologise for saying you did not answer

I suppose that barbed comment is as close to magnanimity as I could have expected in your apology Downcow, but I'll take it.

It wasn't an answer 'of sorts' by the way, it was a very open answer on how I feel about those two topics. They really just don't matter a huge pile to me, beyond a potentially interesting academic discussion. I have no emotional connection to how much the IRA were or were not infiltrated by the British, or vice versa.

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

As said previously Man United and Liverpool who most Irish support are world brands. Our best players have always gone to England as higher quality professional league. It’s hardly surprising we would watch it then. It doesn’t make us more English just sports mad. Sure Roy Keane alone made flying to Newcastle one of cork airports most popular destinations when managing Sunderland. Supporting our own.

Yes, exactly the reason you guys are not flying to Sunderland, because he is not one of your own, he's from that neighbouring country to the north-east

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It means many working class Dublin people who profess to be Republicans -
Have little or no Irish - only speak English, are immersed in British music, entertainment shows, and say 'we' for British soccer teams.

Yet this are the types who like to be seen to be calling for a UI as it is thier only form that they are able to express perceived 'Irishness' in front of peers. Hypocritical in my view.

Again, who the hell are you to make pronouncements on anyone's Irishness?

Also these hypothetical barstoolers that you keep going on about aren't on here debating with you. You're literally talking to a wall.

We get it, you're the only one with any right to dance at the crossroads with comely maidens. Are you done yet repeating yourself?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I suppose that barbed comment is as close to magnanimity as I could have expected in your apology Downcow, but I'll take it.

It wasn't an answer 'of sorts' by the way, it was a very open answer on how I feel about those two topics. They really just don't matter a huge pile to me, beyond a potentially interesting academic discussion. I have no emotional connection to how much the IRA were or were not infiltrated by the British, or vice versa.

Okay fair enough. I will accept them as a full and appropriate answers. You have my full apology.

I would love to have heard from some of the people that do care, but the silence is deafening

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not true either as many who are born on this island view themselves as British and identify as such. Just because it is an island does not simply mean that they are the same Irish as you would term yourself. It hardly helps the unionist beleif that they would be included in a UI does it?

Which is why I think Commonwealth should be considered as an option to create a UI.

Explain again, other than "because you think so", what problem joining the commonwealth solves right now?

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Again, who the hell are you to make pronouncements on anyone's Irishness?

Also these hypothetical barstoolers that you keep going on about aren't on here debating with you. You're literally talking to a wall.

We get it, you're the only one with any right to dance at the crossroads with comely maidens. Are you done yet repeating yourself?

Oh dear, a nerve has been struck there. I have to say it is all a way over my head, wooosshh. It's a times like this that I realise I wasn't just born in another country but feels like another planet

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well you see here is where the problem lies. You see everything in my culture as a hobby - and if I'd be completely honest I don't think that word is totally inappropriate. But when people refer to stuff in your culture as a hobby people go ape****. Irish language is every bit as much a hobby as loyalist band music - or for that matter Ulster Scots language/dialect

No it isn't because of the work and considerations involved.

Bands are made up of non professionals doing it in their spare time...I am not aware of full time bands...so a 'hobby' is the perfect description. Just like amateur drama is or amateur sport. They are supported on that basis.

The umbrella groups running these activities get funded too.

Stop with the victimhood stuff downcow.

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

Yes, exactly the reason you guys are not flying to Sunderland, because he is not one of your own, he's from that neighbouring country to the north-east

What’s the point you are making? Roy Keane is not Irish?

BonnieSituation

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Is Jamie Heaslip Israeli? According to Francie he is.

You're deliberately being obtuse here.

Joey's a Kiwi and ROG is a yank sure.

Gdg's narrow view of Irishness rules out the likes of Richardt Strauss and even yourself I'd wager.

Remove your anti Francie blinkers for a moment.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No it isn't because of the work and considerations involved.

Bands are made up of non professionals doing it in their spare time...I am not aware of full time bands...so a 'hobby' is the perfect description. Just like amateur drama is or amateur sport. They are supported on that basis.

The umbrella groups running these activities get funded too.

Stop with the victimhood stuff downcow.

So what is your point. Is speaking Irish now a profession?

And how do you perceive the victimhood out of me equating the hobbies of the two communities and looking for parity of esteem

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

What’s the point you are making? Roy Keane is not Irish?

I was simply reacting to a post that suggested that Irish people flock to support their own. The example given was flocking to see Roy Keane. I am just pointing out that it is the people in Northern Ireland who are flocking to Sunderland to support Michael O'Neill. Which supports my theory that he is Northern Irish

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So what is your point. Is speaking Irish now a profession?

And how do you perceive the victimhood out of me equating the hobbies of the two communities and looking for parity of esteem

There is a huge range of professional input to preserving and promoting a language across a wide area.

It isn't a hobby or a part time pursuit is the point.

There is no similarity in what a 'language' needs to what a band culture needs. So therefore to whinge that bands don't get enough because they are loyalist is wrong and victimhood.

For your information, amateur drama is not supported by the Arts Council here but professional theatre is. The umbrella group for AM Dram may get some funding but it is small in comparison.