How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

I was simply reacting to a post that suggested that Irish people flock to support their own. The example given was flocking to see Roy Keane. I am just pointing out that it is the people in Northern Ireland who are flocking to Sunderland to support Michael O'Neill. Which supports my theory that he is Northern Irish

They are obviously not great on English geography. Michael O’Neill is at Stoke.

uet69248

Not too long, hopefully.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is a huge range of professional input to preserving and promoting a language across a wide area.

It isn't a hobby or a part time pursuit is the point.

There is no similarity in what a 'language' needs to what a band culture needs. So therefore to whinge that bands don't get enough because they are loyalist is wrong and victimhood.

For your information, amateur drama is not supported by the Arts Council here but professional theatre is. The umbrella group for AM Dram may get some funding but it is small in comparison.

Where was I whinging. I think Irish is being artificially propped up instead of letting ordinary Irish people decide what is worth preserving

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

They are obviously not great on English geography. Michael O’Neill is at Stoke.

Indeed. A typo

downcow

uet69248 wrote: »

Not too long, hopefully.

?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Where was I whinging. I think Irish is being artificially propped up instead of letting ordinary Irish people decide what is worth preserving

We know. You elected people to represent that view and you lost out to people who represented a different view.

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

Indeed. A typo

A typo you made twice. Maybe they are all travelling to support James McClean given he is from the north east too.

I don’t know why you bring up sport as it’s an area whereby except soccer the island competes as one.

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

A typo you made twice. Maybe they are all travelling to support James McClean given he is from the north east too.

I don’t know why you bring up sport as it’s an area whereby except soccer the island competes as one.

I didn’t bring sport up.

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

I didn’t bring sport up.

You always use it to try and sow division. Sports are player in the main on an all island basis and that won’t be changing.

dd973

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

England will not let go of Scotland easily, wait for the dirty tricks if it looks like it will go indy.

Replace England with 'The Brits', the British Establishment doesn't even represent England or care a s**te about English people, it represents itself, the realm and safeguarding centuries of privilege, where can you get an English passport or where's their seat at the UN? They've no flag or anthem either, the serfs of Western Europe.

Hamsterchops

BonnieSituation wrote: »

"The English"

Amazing how freely people can say such things and not realise the anachronistic nonsense that it is the "English" rather than the "British" or even the "Scots" themselves that get to decide the destiny of Scotland.

The English this, the English that, the English .....

The English are ordinary people who just get on with their lives, so I don't subscribe to the English doing anything to hold onto Scotland or Northern Ireland, indeed most English people would probably wish they'd just go away and give them some peace

Westminster is another story, and it's Westminster that holds the United Kingdom together as one. So by all means blame the politicians in Westminster, but I don't think you can just blame "The English" for keeping Scotland & Northern Ireland captive.

BonnieSituation

Hamsterchops wrote: »

The English this, the English that, the English .....

The English are ordinary people who just get on with their lives, so I don't subscribe to the English doing anything to hold onto Scotland or Northern Ireland, indeed most English people would probably wish they'd just go away and give them some peace

Westminster is another story, and it's Westminster that holds the United Kingdom together as one. So by all means blame the politicians in Westminster, but I don't think you can just blame "The English" for keeping Scotland & Northern Ireland captive.

Not at all shocking that you missed the point. Nor made a new one.

Hamsterchops

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Not at all shocking that you missed the point. Nor made a new one.

If I read you correctly I was agreeing with you, and your explanation that the English get an unfair rap. .

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is a huge range of professional input to preserving and promoting a language across a wide area.

It isn't a hobby or a part time pursuit is the point.

There is no similarity in what a 'language' needs to what a band culture needs. So therefore to whinge that bands don't get enough because they are loyalist is wrong and victimhood.

For your information, amateur drama is not supported by the Arts Council here but professional theatre is. The umbrella group for AM Dram may get some funding but it is small in comparison.

This is part of the issue. From where I'm looking it seems to be all about 'preserving and promoting' the Irish language, and i would go further, that for many involved it is about showcasing, pushing, even forcing it on those who have no interest.
It may transform it if you take a leaf out of the loyalist marching scene and just focus on enjoying and celebrating it, live it, breathe it and feel good about it. The rest will then follow with little or no funding needed and it will flourish, just like the band scene is currently.
If it doesn't flourish, then maybe its not worth 'preserving and promoting'.

....or put another way, take a chill pill and relax and enjoy it for what it is

Yeah_Right

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You're deliberately being obtuse here.

Joey's a Kiwi and ROG is a yank sure.

Gdg's narrow view of Irishness rules out the likes of Richardt Strauss and even yourself I'd wager.

Remove your anti Francie blinkers for a moment.

Francie claims that everyone born on the island of Ireland is Irish. Fact. End of story. No debate. I used Heaslip as an example of how that is a stupid position to take. He was born to Irish parents (one of whom was serving in the Irish army) and raised in Ireland but because he was born in Israel, going by Francie;s logic, he is Israeli. Its ridiculous.

Another example is Stephen Moore who was born in Saudi Arabia to Irish parents and raised in Australia. According to Francie, he is Saudi. Do you agree?

Going by Francie's logic, yes Ronan O'Gara is American because he spent the first 6 months of his life there. I disagree.

Joey is a bit different. Born in NZ to an Irish mum and an Irish-Kiwi dad. Raised in NZ for a bit. I'd call him Irish-Kiwi.

My point is that nationality is not based solely on your place of birth. You have to factor in where your parents are from and where you are raised. Francie refuses to do this and just has a blinkered view that everyone born here is Irish so everyone should be happy with a united Ireland. He refuses to accept that people can be born on this island and not be Irish. I don't know if he accepts that people can move to Ireland and become Irish.

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Francie claims that everyone born on the island of Ireland is Irish. Fact. End of story. No debate. I used Heaslip as an example of how that is a stupid position to take. He was born to Irish parents (one of whom was serving in the Irish army) and raised in Ireland but because he was born in Israel, going by Francie;s logic, he is Israeli. Its ridiculous.

Another example is Stephen Moore who was born in Saudi Arabia to Irish parents and raised in Australia. According to Francie, he is Saudi. Do you agree?

Going by Francie's logic, yes Ronan O'Gara is American because he spent the first 6 months of his life there. I disagree.

Joey is a bit different. Born in NZ to an Irish mum and an Irish-Kiwi dad. Raised in NZ for a bit. I'd call him Irish-Kiwi.

My point is that nationality is not based solely on your place of birth. You have to factor in where your parents are from and where you are raised. Francie refuses to do this and just has a blinkered view that everyone born here is Irish so everyone should be happy with a united Ireland. He refuses to accept that people can be born on this island and not be Irish. I don't know if he accepts that people can move to Ireland and become Irish.

You are using examples here that may be the exception to the rule.

If 4 generations of your family were born in Ireland and you were too, then you are as Irish as anyone.

It isn't an insult.
It is how downcow or anyone else will be seen everywhere they go.

I said it before...everyone of us HAS to tell a stranger what our 'identity' is. Me included.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Where was I whinging. I think Irish is being artificially propped up instead of letting ordinary Irish people decide what is worth preserving

A large section of the people of Northern Ireland seem to think that Irish is worth preserving. Why do you want to prevent them doing that?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This is part of the issue. From where I'm looking it seems to be all about 'preserving and promoting' the Irish language, and i would go further, that for many involved it is about showcasing, pushing, even forcing it on those who have no interest.
It may transform it if you take a leaf out of the loyalist marching scene and just focus on enjoying and celebrating it, live it, breathe it and feel good about it. The rest will then follow with little or no funding needed and it will flourish, just like the band scene is currently.
If it doesn't flourish, then maybe its not worth 'preserving and promoting'.

....or put another way, take a chill pill and relax and enjoy it for what it is

Here is a member of your own community savaging the Orange and Unionism's handling of this. Not to mention highlighting the many hypocrisies involved to try and fashion a 'politcal' win.
Unionism shooting itself in the foot AGAIN.

It also has to be said you have used all the 'boogeymen' arguments mentioned here too.

If the Orange Intuition’s failure was shambolic, Unionism’s failure was hugely damaging. In what should have been an example of positive and progressive Unionism, comfortable with its place in the UK extending a gesture to those who cherish the Irish language. By doing so, they could illustrate to non-Unionists that Northern Ireland as part of the UK can work for everyone. Unfortunately what happened was that Unionism whipped up hysteria based on its latest bogeyman the Irish Language Act (ILA), all sorts of unfounded allegations were levelled against the language from how it would undermine English, make Unionists feel less British and that masses of the population faced discrimination if they did not speak the language. These fears were never expanded on as they were generally groundless but the ILA became such a big bogeyman that Lundy was in real danger of being temporarily replaced.

Arlene Foster alluded that any gesture towards the Irish language would be akin to feeding a crocodile in that those Irish speakers would come back for more and more and more. Gregory Campbell during his time as an MLA infamously mocked the language (curry my yogurt) and then at the DUP party conference said they would treat Sinn Fein’s wish list on the Irish language like toilet paper. The key mistake here apart from the insults was to align the language to Sinn Fein rather than treating the language as an independent entity. Steve Aiken surprisingly said that the UUP were further to the right on the Irish language than even the DUP were. Lord Kilclooney on Twitter has been firing out accusation followed by accusation about the evils of the Irish language and even insinuated that Northern Ireland would have to have all of its street signs in Irish. Ironically I found a wonderful short documentary on Youtube about John Taylor and his newspaper group Alpha. In the snippet on Youtube he discusses how his company bought some rundown houses and upgraded them for single people and small families, at the time (1970’s) there was a campaign to introduce Irish into street names and John Taylor said he would get in ahead of this trend and name the first one in Armagh city. So he named the street where the houses were upgraded “Faugh-A-Ballagh-Court” which means “clear the way” and this Irish slogan is the motto of the Royal Irish Rangers whose barracks was close to the street and thus the street was named in Irish. The maturity from the John Taylor of the 1970’s does not chime with Lord Kilclooney of 2020 and his anti-Irish language scaremongering.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/01/12/the-orange-orders-complex-relationship-with-the-irish-language/?fbclid=IwAR07TJukz8wxgmP0zh0adeS8NatfKnWSeP_Yqp7DreMWhoXlpTUq7a3Co7w

gormdubhgorm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Flemish is a Dutch language, not a Belgian one. The Swiss do indeed use a number of languages....the only native one has fewer speakers than Irish. Austria's part in the Austro-Hungarian empire has what to do with their speaking German? And you ignored the Cypriots.

I'm fully aware a country's native language doesn't have to be named for the country, but none of those countries speak their native language, whatever way you try to spin it. According to you, they're not countries at all apparently!

Not according to Pearse and I agree with him on it. Especially due to the proximity to England, Scotland/Wales - there is still a colonial mindset that Irish people cannot shake. Which is why there is absolutely no discussion about Ireland returning to the commonwealth in order to attain a Republic.

Irish people have blinkers on when it comes to alternatives. Returning to the commonwealth shows inclusion to those of a different political persuasion and it would result in a far more stable Republic. It would also provide new avenues for trade previously unexplored. I will have a more detailed post on the history of those who wanted a UI within the commonwealth later and why I think it is a good idea.

Yeah_Right

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If 4 generations of your family were born in Ireland and you were too, then you are as Irish as anyone.

I agree. What if 4 generations of your family were born in Spain but you were born in Ireland and raised in Spain, would you be Irish?

Hamsterchops

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not according to Pearse and I agree with him on it. Especially due to the proximity to England, Scotland/Wales - there is still a colonial mindset that Irish people cannot shake. Which is why there is absolutely no discussion about Ireland returning to the commonwealth in order to attain a Republic.

Can you be a Colony and be in such close proximity, like next door?

Just asking like

I always thought colonies were far off foreign places and not literally next door.

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I agree. What if 4 generations of your family were born in Spain but you were born in Ireland and raised in Spain, would you be Irish?

Again, you are using exceptions to a general rule here and it doesn't cover the situation we are specifically talking about.

Yeah_Right

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again, you are using exceptions to a general rule here and it doesn't cover the situation we are specifically talking about.

You're the one that said "everybody" born on the island of Ireland was Irish. You defended that claim by saying Heaslip was Israeli. Your words. Own it

If you now accept that you were wrong, thats fine. Good for you.

Fionn1952

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not according to Pearse and I agree with him on it. Especially due to the proximity to England, Scotland/Wales - there is still a colonial mindset that Irish people cannot shake. Which is why there is absolutely no discussion about Ireland returning to the commonwealth in order to attain a Republic.

Irish people have blinkers on when it comes to alternatives. Returning to the commonwealth shows inclusion to those of a different political persuasion and it would result in a far more stable Republic. It would also provide new avenues for trade previously unexplored. I will have a more detailed post on the history of those who wanted a UI within the commonwealth later and why I think it is a good idea.

So you are standing by your assertion that Belgium, Cyprus, Austria and Switzerland aren't countries?!

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You're the one that said "everybody" born on the island of Ireland was Irish. You defended that claim by saying Heaslip was Israeli. Your words. Own it

If you now accept that you were wrong, thats fine. Good for you.

If somebody has 'born in Israel' on his/her birth cert, if it is therefore on his passport and that person is found somewhere...what will their nationality be assumed as?

I don't know what Heaslip has on his birth cert or passport, but if it is the above...I guarantee you he has been in situations where he has had to tell people he is in fact Irish.

It is all beside the point though. This is not the exception/anomaly I am talking about. Keep pivoting to it if you must, to prove whatever the hell you think you are trying to prove.

jm08

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You're the one that said "everybody" born on the island of Ireland was Irish. You defended that claim by saying Heaslip was Israeli. Your words. Own it

If you now accept that you were wrong, thats fine. Good for you.

From the Irish State's point of view, everyone born on the island of Ireland is Irish. Obviously, its up to the individual themselves to choose their own identity. So if Doug Howlett's children born in Ireland with Irish passports and now back in New Zealand decide they are Irish or they later claim that they are Kiwis because their parents are Kiwis, who are we to decide who or what their nationality is?

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Explain again, other than "because you think so", what problem joining the commonwealth solves right now?

Well it is a different approach to the issue of Brexit for a start a bit of give and take helps you know.

I fully understand how you were force fed like me with the 800 years of hurt line and so on. And how you would John Bruton who called for Ireland to join the commonwealth is a 'West Brit'. I used to think the same myself.
But when you step back from the rhetoric and think about it. Burton may have a point in saying 1916 was unnecessary. All it ended up doing was splitting the country in two and harbouring mistrust and division.

In this thread for example there is very little discussion of inclusiveness, and trying to understand another political viewpoint on the island of Ireland. Poor auld downcow could well be excused for thinking he/she is heading for the slaughterhouse once a UI is proclaimed. :eek:

Here is a general discussion on why Ireland joining would not be a bad idea.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:EPl9WomJvcEJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-the-republic-must-consider-rejoining-the-commonwealth-1.3605886+&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

The latter is not the first to consider this an an option 'The reform group' was formed in 1998 to promote "a more inclusive definition of Irish identity" throughout all of Ireland.

The Reform Group released a book discussing the topic ten years ago.

https://www.omahonys.ie/ireland-and-the-commonwealth-towards-membership-p-262266.html

FF TD Malcolm Byrne (who has since lost his seat )

- even suggested that Ireland have the 12th as a National Holiday, Ireland rejoin the commonwealth, and 30pc of Cabinet positions for unionists in a UI.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ff-td-united-ireland-could-celebrate-the-twelfth-and-rejoin-commonwealth-38795028.html

He pointed out that "The late Albert Reynolds once suggested that we could reserve 30pc of cabinet places for those from a unionist tradition - that could prove to be a very visionary statement."

--

Now you might think that joining the commonwealth is outlandish and abhorrent to Republican traditions. But the fact is a Republic can still join the Commonwealth with all its bells and whistles. Even keep the President. India manage perfectly well in the commonwealth as a Republic. One of the fastest growing economies in the world. But the crucial aspect is it is a way of keeping Ireland united while including all traditions. Member states have no legal obligations to one another, but are connected through their use of the English language and historical ties. Which Ireland already has as I have discussed.

In Eamon De Valera's last years in office as Taoiseach to achieve a UI he was in secret negotiations to join The Commonwealth.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:T5qdNqtK4NAJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/united-ireland-de-valera-s-secret-plan-for-unification-1.3999072+&cd=16&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

"De Valera and Aiken proposed that Northern Ireland should surrender its direct allegiance to the queen in return for a united Republic of Ireland within the Commonwealth"

In fact even earlier back in 1953 De Valera said to Churchill that: he would not have taken Ireland out of the Commonwealth, as Costello had done.

At the time of the Republic of Ireland act 1948 - Republics were not permitted to join The Commonwealth. This changed following The London Declaration of 1949.

https://thecommonwealth.org/london-declaration

So that is why I think it would be a good idea for Ireland to join the Commonwealth. It stops the posturing of the likes of Celtic jerseys at Republican protests and actually accept common bonds. Instead of focusing on differences to divide and politise they should be included. That is how a UI should be achieved. As Gerry Adams once said himself the oppressed must not become the oppressors in a UI. But I believe it is only mere rhetoric unless a proper move forward is made, like joining The Commonwealth, that will lead to an inclusive United Republic of Ireland.

gormdubhgorm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

So you are standing by your assertion that Belgium, Cyprus, Austria and Switzerland aren't countries?!

They don't have that colony mindset except Cyprus. And have an inclusive approach which stops them fracturing. Unlike Ireland.

I don't know why you persist in using Austria as an example as German is thier main lingo - the only difference is in dialect. Many in Switzerland are multi-lingual in using languages as communication.

In Ireland Irish is not used as a communication language and only approx 70,000 people speak it within a community. It has only being used as political tool instead of a language of communication. Using a language is easily done. By just speaking the language. But for some reason many proud Republicans who call for a UI for a sense of national identity don't speak Irish or have a low level.
It does not say much to me for a future of a UI that English is still the main language of Ireland after 100 years.

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/libraryResearch/2016/2016-11-07_l-rs-note-the-irish-language-a-linguistic-crisis_en.pdf

If Ireland cannot even get thier own culture in order, how will they manage real inclusiveness in NI?

I still believe that a country is not a real country without a widely spoken native language as communication. It is just people using the language of another instead. Definitely lacking.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

They don't have that colony mindset except Cyprus. And have an inclusive approach which stops them fracturing. Unlike Ireland.

I don't know why you persist in using Austria as an example as German is thier main lingo - the only difference is in dialect. Many in Switzerland are multi-lingual in using languages as communication.

In Ireland Irish is not used as a communication language and only approx 70,000 people speak it as a language of communication. It has only being used as political tool instead of a language of communication this is easily done. By just speaking the language. But for some reason many proud Republicans who call for a UI for a sense of national identity don't speak Irish or have a low level.
It does not say much to me for a future of a UI that English is still the main language of Ireland after 100 years.

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/libraryResearch/2016/2016-11-07_l-rs-note-the-irish-language-a-linguistic-crisis_en.pdf

If Ireland cannot even get thier own culture in order, how will they manage real inclusiveness in NI?

I still believe that a country is not a real country without a widely spoken native language as communication. It is just people using the language of another instead. Definitely lacking.

The absolute explosion in Gael Scoilenna is a 'political tool'?

Will you get a grip gormdubh. You are just sledgehammering this stuff together to make a self deprecating point. How desperate are you?

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The absolute explosion in Gael Scoilenna is a 'political tool'?

Will you get a grip gormdubh. You are just sledgehammering this stuff together to make a self deprecating point. How desperate are you?

It is my point language is the main expression of culture. A turn of phrase, a way of thinking, it has tradition embedded in it. A unique lovely language. Yet it is way more easier for gombeens to think that a changing of the line of map is going to make them 'feel' more Irish instead. While still identifying more with British culture - the SF LCM (Lowest Common Denominator) in particular.

As for your point on Gaelscoil's they are a good thing. Language should not be politicised like SF cynically did with the Irish language Act - as most don't use it as a community language. When I was talking to a fluent Irish speaker from Donegal for example. I asked him why he did not wear a fainne. He explained how it has negative associations which he wishes to avoid -IRA - Provos and so on.

Yet the diehard republicans are precisely the types who call for a UI - the loudest. But even manage to tarnish the Irish language by thier approach. What hope real inclusiveness in a UI without a real move towards recognising and including a Unionist tradition? None in my opinion.