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How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP
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BonnieSituation wrote: »Well, just say you see no value in the Irish language nor in its promotion and retention and be done with it.
Stop hiding behind the NHS argument.
The health service is always the reason why people think we shouldn't have anything of cultural significance.
I'll never forget how many "beds in hospitals" the Spire would take out of the system back in the late 90s.
Some people just don't like cultural heritage or contributions.
Here you go, if that helps. I see no value in the Irish language nor in its promotion and retention.
But I have absolutely no problem with others investing their time and energy and resources in promoting it0 -
BonnieSituation wrote: »But a UI is anathema to a unionist. Quality of Life is what will change their minds. The moderate unionist was always more loyal to the half crown.
As a republic, to join the commonwealth is anathema.
Sops to any particular group should not be on the agenda. Unionists are always asked to join in discussions. And they will refuse to join all discussions until its too late.
So changing flags, joining the commonwealth, heck installing a massive PA system on O'Connell St to play GSTQ 24/7 won't get them to engage.
It's up to Nationalists to show that a UI is better than he status quo. That's our only job.
Now you have got it0 -
You do know that the new unity unit or whatever it is called is gonna be looking at the financial side of things too? There will be hours of Prime Time and the like devoted to the financial aspect. No point burying your head in the sand and saying ah sure it'll be grand.
And solutions offered.
If your strategy is to be negative, and start every exploration with 'ah now, you can't be doing that', you'll be out of the conversation fairly quickly.0 -
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BonnieSituation wrote: »That's exactly why you and your beligerent ilk should be ignored in any UI conversation. You're a waste of time and energy.
I can save you the bother of ignoring us. I don't know of a single Unionist who will be involved in any UI conversation. And absolutely, it would be a waste of time and energy to participate in such0 -
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I can save you the bother of ignoring us. I don't know of a single Unionist who will be involved in any UI conversation. And absolutely, it would be a waste of time and energy to participate in such
Of course you don't. I can't imagine any moderate unionist would talk politics to you.0 -
I can save you the bother of ignoring us. I don't know of a single Unionist who will be involved in any UI conversation. And absolutely, it would be a waste of time and energy to participate in such
It's a pity that people in the south don't realise that. After a pro-UI vote the Gregory Campbells and Sammy Wilsons of the world become utterly irrelevant and the moderate unionists will be the ones who step forward and we can plan the future with.0 -
I can save you the bother of ignoring us. I don't know of a single Unionist who will be involved in any UI conversation. And absolutely, it would be a waste of time and energy to participate in such
I know plenty who are starting to grudgingly consider it along the border at present.0 -
I can save you the bother of ignoring us. I don't know of a single Unionist who will be involved in any UI conversation. And absolutely, it would be a waste of time and energy to participate in such
I wouldn't like to rat anyone out, but there are Unionists talking about and discussing a UI.
They spoke at the all party committee work done on it a while back. I'll let you look it up yourself who it was.0 -
I know plenty who are starting to grudgingly consider it along the border at present.
Peter Robinson in his speech said Unionists should prepare for such an eventuality. If downcow wants to live in complete denial so be it. Support for Scottish independence went from single digits to not far off 50 in a short few years and they are a much more integral part of the UK. Boris has basically lied and laughed into Unionists faces and told them they live in a quasi U.K/EU land.0 -
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Boris certainly wasnt honest with the Unionists and is now backtracking big time.
However its hilarious to see posters here claim that the Unionist community is having chats and discussions about Irish Unity (behind closed doors of course). Its little more than wishful thinking that Republicans have always voiced since 1920. The statistics and polls say the opposite. They say that Unionists would vote about 96 to 98 percent to remain in the UK
The real discussion Republicans need to have is why so many Catholics wish to remain in the UK or at least not join United Ireland. The Rory McIlroy type of middle class Catholics from East Ulster0 -
You've clearly misread with the impression that these statements are MY opinions, rather than just applying your, 'the NHS needs more money, so anything less important than the NHS should not receive funding' logic.
If you DON'T believe that anything less important than the NHS should not receive funding until all the NHS woes are fixed, then your statement is an irrelevant piece of nonsense.
To clarify, I fully support funding for people struggling with English or struggling to integrate into society. I'm a huge supporter and big fan of the Arts, regular user of library resources. I'm not the one calling for all our tax funds to be diverted into the NHS though.
Quite obviously, my point was that your objection has SFA to do with NHS funding, but rather it is a convenient excuse, Downcow. I thought it was quite clear to anyone who took their time to actually read it.
If you read my post you would see I wasn’t saying nothing less important than nhs should be funded, but I was saying money should not be wasted on minority pastimes that would die out if these groups were not rained with money.
So you would draw now lines? Everything gets money you just don’t know where the money is coming from.- that sounds very Sinn Fein0 -
Junkyard Tom wrote: »It's a pity that people in the south don't realise that. After a pro-UI vote the Gregory Campbells and Sammy Wilsons of the world become utterly irrelevant and the moderate unionists will be the ones who step forward and we can plan the future with.
Oh I have said all along, if the hypothetical UI vote ever happened you will have no shortage of all shades of unionists who will want to talk and campaign for massive changes to what goes on in the south. Demands for our culture and identity to be ‘promoted and preserved’ (haha see what I done there) at great expense. All this while we work to make this new UI unstable and unworkable so that you will want to give us our own state. I guess we have learnt a lot watching you guys. Hopefully we won’t copy the bit of forming an ira and carrying out a sectarian murder campaign0 -
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BloodyBill wrote: »I ll have to lie down after all this Irish language codology. It reminds me of debates in school 20 years ago. Irish is never going to revive when a large proportion of the population dont want it to. I'm actively anti Irish language and take a degree of pride in that. Kids with Irish first names like Fiachra or Oisin deserve to be kidney punched or at least open handed slapped...their parents deserve jail. And they are the first ones to whine about Trump banning the J1 Visa when in actuality Trump is saving their little Feargal from being called Frank for 3 monthsBonnieSituation wrote: »Pride in being actively anti the Irish language? Jesus.
Right, well that's any rational discussion out the window with you.BloodyBill wrote: »You show precisely why many people reject your narrow parameters of Irishness. 'More Irish' indicates the hierarchy of 'Irishness' runs strong. Its totally ridiculous of course. I identify as Irish and that's it. No amount of Irish dancing, Gaelic speaking or left wing politics will make you more Irish than me.
As for Canada ,USA, New Zealand and Australia. 4 of the best countries in the World by any measure. And all colonised by us and the Scots and English. They were basically uninhabited before they were settled by us. There were about 2 million Indians in the whole of North America and while many did die of terrible diseases brought by europeans many more died through vicious inter tribal wars. Nobody killed more Native Americans than the Native Americans. Australia the same...basically empty before colonisation. New Zealand Maoris had wiped out the natives around 250 years before any european arrived and they are doing fine after a decent treaty was signed.
Well BloodyBill you seem to have a really set defined view considering you take pride in being anti-Irish language. I am sure you have some well defined rational/irrational reasons as an Irish person being anti-a language in particular the Irish language.
People like you intrigue me considering many foreigners have no issue learning Irish and treating it just like any language. But some Irish people like you seem to have this negative attitude towards the Irish language. Making a point of turning your back on Irish heritage. Which in my view is a colonial mindset.
So in light of your viewpoint, where do you stand on the border question?
Should a UI be created? If so.what concessions if any should be given to Unionists - to sweeten the deal. Or should the status quo remain?Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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If you read my post you would see I wasn’t saying nothing less important than nhs should be funded, but I was saying money should not be wasted on minority pastimes that would die out if these groups were not rained with money.
So you would draw now lines? Everything gets money you just don’t know where the money is coming from.- that sounds very Sinn Fein
So as I suspected, your objection has nothing to do with the NHS, but instead about anything, 'themmuns'.
Your reduction of the native language of the country to a, 'minority past time' rather than acknowledging it as a rich part of the history (and culture, without setting the whole discussion with GDG off again) of this island is very telling. The preservation of ANY language is important, Downcow. Your forefathers were aware of this, and were fundamental in preserving the language when it was under an active attempt to wipe it out.
As I said previously, I'm pretty sure your funding objections follow a very clearly biased leaning. Soccer for kids, fine. GAA for kids bad. Irish language for kids bad, marching band instruments for kids good.
Like any reasonable person with a basic understanding of economics, I'm certainly not arguing for unlimited funding for everything and anything. Outside of hardline Loyalism and Gregory Campbell types, no one except you is arguing for total defunding of all supports for the Irish Language though. Your company on the issue is very telling.
You don't even get that shouting, 'millions' isn't all that much in the context of the budget of a country. Your huge, 'million' of funding would be 0.0038% of the NI budget or 0.0001% of the UK budget. Hardly the impressive figure you seem to think.I don’t live too far from the border and I haven’t met any of them yet, but maybe you are closer to the unionist people than me
You're telling me that you have spoke with many people from a farming background in the Unionist community and absolutely ZERO of them, while currently supporting the Union, have started to actively consider their position should Brexit severely impact their farms?
I rarely state things so bluntly, but if that is your position, either you don't interact with very many people at all, or you're an outright liar.
As mentioned before Downcow, I have family who are part of the Unionist community, and plenty of Unionist friends who are farming along the border. A significant number are quite openly stating that if Brexit impacts their livelihood, their objections to a UI will start falling away.
A VERY large number of Unionists are economic Unionists rather than ideological Unionists. They're invested in the Union as long as the Union is better for them. You can deny it all you want, but outside certain enclaves, the fear of anything Irish is withering away.0 -
gormdubhgorm wrote: »
Well BloodyBill you seem to have a really set defined view considering you take pride in being anti-Irish language. I am sure you have some well defined rational/irrational reasons as an Irish person being anti-a language in particular the Irish language.
People like you intrigue me considering many foreigners have no issue learning Irish and treating it just like any language. But some Irish people like you seem to have this negative attitude towards the Irish language. Making a point of turning your back on Irish heritage. Which in my view is a colonial mindset.
So in light of your viewpoint, where do you stand on the border question?
Should a UI be created? If so.what concessions if any should be given to Unionists - to sweeten the deal. Or should the status quo remain?
Christ....I'm fully in agreement with GDG!0 -
A VERY large number of Unionists are economic Unionists rather than ideological Unionists. They're invested in the Union as long as the Union is better for them. You can deny it all you want, but outside certain enclaves, the fear of anything Irish is withering away.
Yep FranceBrady made the good point that Unionist farmers thinking of thier land and thier pockets more than thier politics.FrancieBrady wrote: »If Brexit puts keeping their land in danger there isn't a Unionist farmer who would not revert to being just a farmer.
The land comes first then the union make no mistake about that. If it's stay in the EU and continue farming or leave on a random, rollcoaster ride with Boris and chums and likely lose the land...there will not be a second lost making the choice.
I remember hearing a Unionist farmer on the radio genuinely wondering if he would better off in a UI because of Brexit. If there are many more of that train of thought a UI will not be far off. As people like this who 'change sides' will be key to making sure any future UI is stable.Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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Oh I have said all along, if the hypothetical UI vote ever happened you will have no shortage of all shades of unionists who will want to talk and campaign for massive changes to what goes on in the south. Demands for our culture and identity to be ‘promoted and preserved’ (haha see what I done there) at great expense. All this while we work to make this new UI unstable and unworkable so that you will want to give us our own state. I guess we have learnt a lot watching you guys. Hopefully we won’t copy the bit of forming an ira and carrying out a sectarian murder campaign
Sam McBride, editor, Billy Hutchinson and Peter Robinson have all talked about shifting attitudes in Unionism...that it hasn't gotten to Castlewellan yet, is evidence only that there are rumps of Unionism behind the more moderate and progressive.
What demands would you be making for funding in a UI at great expense? You guys will be taxpayers too I might remind you, any expense on the state will be coming out of your pockets too...i.e. No Westminister sugar daddies anymore)0 -
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So as I suspected, your objection has nothing to do with the NHS, but instead about anything, 'themmuns'.
Your reduction of the native language of the country to a, 'minority past time' rather than acknowledging it as a rich part of the history (and culture, without setting the whole discussion with GDG off again) of this island is very telling. The preservation of ANY language is important, Downcow. Your forefathers were aware of this, and were fundamental in preserving the language when it was under an active attempt to wipe it out.
As I said previously, I'm pretty sure your funding objections follow a very clearly biased leaning. Soccer for kids, fine. GAA for kids bad. Irish language for kids bad, marching band instruments for kids good.
Like any reasonable person with a basic understanding of economics, I'm certainly not arguing for unlimited funding for everything and anything. Outside of hardline Loyalism and Gregory Campbell types, no one except you is arguing for total defunding of all supports for the Irish Language though. Your company on the issue is very telling.
You don't even get that shouting, 'millions' isn't all that much in the context of the budget of a country. Your huge, 'million' of funding would be 0.0038% of the NI budget or 0.0001% of the UK budget. Hardly the impressive figure you seem to think.
You're telling me that you have spoke with many people from a farming background in the Unionist community and absolutely ZERO of them, while currently supporting the Union, have started to actively consider their position should Brexit severely impact their farms?
I rarely state things so bluntly, but if that is your position, either you don't interact with very many people at all, or you're an outright liar.
As mentioned before Downcow, I have family who are part of the Unionist community, and plenty of Unionist friends who are farming along the border. A significant number are quite openly stating that if Brexit impacts their livelihood, their objections to a UI will start falling away.
A VERY large number of Unionists are economic Unionists rather than ideological Unionists. They're invested in the Union as long as the Union is better for them. You can deny it all you want, but outside certain enclaves, the fear of anything Irish is withering away.
again I am not sure where to start.
I was very clear that I thought a reasonable level of support for kids participating in sport was a good thing.
At no time did I suggest Irish sport language or culture should not receive at least equal funding to Unionist sport language and culture participation.
And you rightly referred to my forefathers part in continuation of the Irish language - but I would not think they got big amounts of funding to do this, I would be inclined to think they done it because they loved it and valued it.
I know lots of farmers, indeed am a part-time one myself, and of course people are watching with interest the way everything pans out after Brexit. But if you have fallen to the position that you are pinning all your hopes of a united Ireland Brexit I think you are on have beaten docket again.
None of us really know how Brexit will materialise. If you're talking to lots of farming folks you probably saw them getting their trailers greased for the long journey north to get a good price for their beef. Headlines in some of the Irish papers today how Irish farmers are moving their cattle north to benefit from €150/head more. There are going to be lots of pros and cons with Brexit.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »Sam McBride, editor, Billy Hutchinson and Peter Robinson have all talked about shifting attitudes in Unionism...that it hasn't gotten to Castlewellan yet, is evidence only that there are rumps of Unionism behind the more moderate and progressive.
What demands would you be making for funding in a UI at great expense? You guys will be taxpayers too I might remind you, any expense on the state will be coming out of your pockets too...i.e. No Westminister sugar daddies anymore)
I would be hoping that the Dublin sugar daddies would be there for us :-).
The above selections are hardly the current voice of Unionism0 -
Oh I have said all along, if the hypothetical UI vote ever happened you will have no shortage of all shades of unionists who will want to talk and campaign for massive changes to what goes on in the south. Demands for our culture and identity to be ‘promoted and preserved’ (haha see what I done there) at great expense. All this while we work to make this new UI unstable and unworkable so that you will want to give us our own state. I guess we have learnt a lot watching you guys. Hopefully we won’t copy the bit of forming an ira and carrying out a sectarian murder campaign
And what about your nationalist neighbours? Reckon they'll join ye for another go at the partition merry-go-round?0 -
I would be hoping that the Dublin sugar daddies would be there for us :-).
The above selections are hardly the current voice of Unionism
What aspects of your culture are going to require 'great expense' downcow?
p.s. I didn't realise Sam, Billy and Peter had been thrown out of Unionism.0 -
again I am not sure where to start.
I was very clear that I thought a reasonable level of support for kids participating in sport was a good thing.
At no time did I suggest Irish sport language or culture should not receive at least equal funding to Unionist sport language and culture participation.
And you rightly referred to my forefathers part in continuation of the Irish language - but I would not think they got big amounts of funding to do this, I would be inclined to think they done it because they loved it and valued it.
I know lots of farmers, indeed am a part-time one myself, and of course people are watching with interest the way everything pans out after Brexit. But if you have fallen to the position that you are pinning all your hopes of a united Ireland Brexit I think you are on have beaten docket again.
None of us really know how Brexit will materialise. If you're talking to lots of farming folks you probably saw them getting their trailers greased for the long journey north to get a good price for their beef. Headlines in some of the Irish papers today how Irish farmers are moving their cattle north to benefit from €150/head more. There are going to be lots of pros and cons with Brexit.
I'm not pinning my hopes on anything, Downcow. As far as I'm concerned, so long as the majority of the population of the North wish to remain in the UK, then so be it. I'm telling you that I know a lot of Unionist farmers who are concerned about Brexit, particularly surrounding things like US produce undercutting their own, higher quality, more expensive produce. You're the one who stated that NO Unionists were talking about it. We're all aware there is much uncertainty around Brexit. If you had a half decent grasp of economics, you'd realise that uncertainty itself is a bad thing. Current cattle prices are irrelevant, considering Britain is in it's transition period, and is currently trading as if it is part of the EU.
Your certainty in the face of change is impressive, but that was always the case with certain sections of the Unionist community. 'NEVER, NEVER NEVER....Oh okay then'.
Regarding the funding issue, we've established it is nothing to do with the NHS, now you're saying you DO support funding for the Irish language (so long as Unionists get their bung to, 'allow' it).....so what exactly is your point? That EVERYTHING should get the exact same amount of funding, regardless of requirements? Sounds like you're taking a dose of Shinnernomics yourself.
You think it didn't cost anything to preserve the Irish language when the British were actively trying to wipe it out? That's adorably naive.0 -
I would be hoping that the Dublin sugar daddies would be there for us :-).
The above selections are hardly the current voice of Unionism
So now it isnt, 'no Unionists', but rather, 'not the right Unionists' talking about it?
I suppose Jamie Bryson and Sammy Wilson would be the leading voices of Unionism in your eyes.
The Unionist pride in hand outs is also quite disturbing. 'Our wee country is so f*cked that only the Brits can afford us'.0 -
gormdubhgorm wrote: »
Well BloodyBill you seem to have a really set defined view considering you take pride in being anti-Irish language. I am sure you have some well defined rational/irrational reasons as an Irish person being anti-a language in particular the Irish language.
People like you intrigue me considering many foreigners have no issue learning Irish and treating it just like any language. But some Irish people like you seem to have this negative attitude towards the Irish language. Making a point of turning your back on Irish heritage. Which in my view is a colonial mindset.
So in light of your viewpoint, where do you stand on the border question?
Should a UI be created? If so.what concessions if any should be given to Unionists - to sweeten the deal. Or should the status quo remain?
Ambivalent on the border question at best. I dont think it's even a question right now. But I ll indulge. If the majority of Protestants voted for a United Ireland I'd be fine with it. I would have concerns about the cost but I'd row in behind it. So for me the majority of Catholics and the majority of Protestants would have to vote for it for me to be for it. That's about at 70% majority of all the people i Northern Ireland give or take.
You mention heritage. I think Hiberno English has a hugely rich written and oral history which we can add to. That's enough. The politicising of Irish is what turns me off the most. It's basically a Republican play thing at this stage. When I hear it I think Socialism,Republicanism ect..It was kept alive by Protestants yet they were pushed out or felt it was a cold house as the years have gone by aswell.. David Irvines sister is the exception that proves the rule. By the way Iv played hurling all my life. That doesnt make me one iota more Irish than my mates who played hockey or rugby. Irish should be kept by the academics and the money pumped into the gaelteachts and TG4 should be cut drastically. Both my mothers and fathers family would be rural middle class and both sides never had anything but ridicule for the irish language industry . Saying all that I can listen to Munster Irish ....Ulster Irish is an abominable sound to my ears..0 -
BloodyBill wrote: »Ambivalent on the border question at best. I dont think it's even a question right now. But I ll indulge. If the majority of Protestants voted for a United Ireland I'd be fine with it. I would have concerns about the cost but I'd row in behind it. So for me the majority of Catholics and the majority of Protestants would have to vote for it for me to be for it. That's about at 70% majority of all the people i Northern Ireland give or take.
You mention heritage. I think Hiberno English has a hugely rich written and oral history which we can add to. That's enough. The politicising of Irish is what turns me off the most. It's basically a Republican play thing at this stage. When I hear it I think Socialism,Republicanism ect..It was kept alive by Protestants yet they were pushed out or felt it was a cold house as the years have gone by aswell.. David Irvines sister is the exception that proves the rule. By the way Iv played hurling all my life. That doesnt make me one iota more Irish than my mates who played hockey or rugby. Irish should be kept by the academics and the money pumped into the gaelteachts and TG4 should be cut drastically. Both my mothers and fathers family would be rural middle class and both sides never had anything but ridicule for the irish language industry . Saying all that I can listen to Munster Irish ....Ulster Irish is an abominable sound to my ears..
Well I agree with you 100% on the politicization of Irish. Many Irish speakers don't like its politicization which is part of the problem of the border in the first place Many just use it as symbolism on both sides. Politicization of difference rather than looking for a shared heritage.
As for tg4 they only get €32m a year and are innovative in thier use of it. They develop interesting programmes for what they have. I assume you refuse to watch it because of your bias, which is fair enough if that is the way you think - no changing you. (unless you watch GAA games with the sound off).
In contrast RTE get €221m a year. And this has been increased by €50m €10m annually over five years from the government.
I would argue that RTE do not use thier money properly and tg4 funding should be increased, as they play an important role in the preservation of Irish heritage - better programmes as well imo. But that would be going off topic so I would leave it there.Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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gormdubhgorm wrote: »Well I agree with you 100% on the politicization of Irish.
The refusal to give Irish the same status as native languages have in the rest of the UK (Unionist exceptionalism again) and here was what 'politicised' it.
It was 'depoliticised' at St Andrew's by agreement, only to be re-politicised' by the mis-use of 'petitions of concern' and DUP demeaning and intransigence in delivering the agreement.0 -
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BloodyBill wrote: »Ambivalent on the border question at best. I dont think it's even a question right now. But I ll indulge. If the majority of Protestants voted for a United Ireland I'd be fine with it. I would have concerns about the cost but I'd row in behind it. So for me the majority of Catholics and the majority of Protestants would have to vote for it for me to be for it. That's about at 70% majority of all the people i Northern Ireland give or take.
You mention heritage. I think Hiberno English has a hugely rich written and oral history which we can add to. That's enough. The politicising of Irish is what turns me off the most. It's basically a Republican play thing at this stage. When I hear it I think Socialism,Republicanism ect..It was kept alive by Protestants yet they were pushed out or felt it was a cold house as the years have gone by aswell.. David Irvines sister is the exception that proves the rule. By the way Iv played hurling all my life. That doesnt make me one iota more Irish than my mates who played hockey or rugby. Irish should be kept by the academics and the money pumped into the gaelteachts and TG4 should be cut drastically. Both my mothers and fathers family would be rural middle class and both sides never had anything but ridicule for the irish language industry . Saying all that I can listen to Munster Irish ....Ulster Irish is an abominable sound to my ears..
So you're in favour of a Unionist/Protestant veto?
How would you get the data to prove this?0
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