How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well there we are. That puts the lie to all the nonsense being peddled on here. It just not happening, in our lifetimes, or ever. And the gfa prevents any silly stuff going on. As unionists we are rock solid and safe in the union. Thanks to the gfa

Then you guys went and Brexited. A lot of water under the bridge since then.
If you told any of that audience that Sammy would be ranting about Britain cutting them off with a border in the Irish Sea in just a few years they'd have laughed you out of the studios.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Greens gor 7%. 93% didnt want them in government .see where this is going?

The above is what being disingenuous looks like. FF/FG/Labour all said no to SF in government. It was always going to be a combination of one or more of those parties plus a.n other. You this is the problem why there is no UI there is no sincerity or honesty.

Nolan is a click bait controversialist...if you judged the south on the cobtriburions to the Joe Duffy circus...it would be a similar mistake.

Judging by your post regarding the GE 2020. I would say Nolan has his finger firmly on the plus of Nationalist and Unionist type rhetoric.

From my opinion as I said NI is childish in nature and are disingenuous in politics. Not very truthful all posturing and symbolism.
Only when that is solved can there be a UI.

Fionn1952

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The above is what being disingenuous looks like. FF/FG/Labour all said no to SF in government. It was always going to be a combination of one or more of those parties plus a.n other. You this is the problem why there is no UI there is no sincerity or honesty.




Judging by your post regarding the GE 2020. I would say Nolan has his finger firmly on the plus of Nationalist and Unionist type rhetoric.

From my opinion as I said NI is childish in nature and are disingenuous in politics. Not very truthful all posturing and symbolism.
Only when that is solved can there be a UI.

All other stuff aside, Nolan is absolutely not representative of the general populace of NI. His audiences are very carefully and intentionally chosen to get the sort of reactions you see. He is more akin to Jerry Springer than legitimate political commentary.

This isn't a matter of opinion by the way, it is purely factual. Should you watch it enough, you'll notice even in the audience, the same faces showing up time and time again.

Junkyard Tom

What's happening now, with Brexit, is acceleration of the stitching together of the all-Ireland economic/social/psychological fabric. Within 10 years we'll have a United Ireland in all but name.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The above is what being disingenuous looks like. FF/FG/Labour all said no to SF in government. It was always going to be a combination of one or more of those parties plus a.n other. You this is the problem why there is no UI there is no sincerity or honesty.




Judging by your post regarding the GE 2020. I would say Nolan has his finger firmly on the plus of Nationalist and Unionist type rhetoric.

From my opinion as I said NI is childish in nature and are disingenuous in politics. Not very truthful all posturing and symbolism.
Only when that is solved can there be a UI.

Your judgement is deeply deeply suspect again.

You are correct, FF/FG/Lab all engaging in exclusionary politics and the Irish electorate told all 3 what they thought of that, returning SF as the biggest party.

What you miss about Irish culture is that there is a folk memory of exclusion. FG FF and Lab behaving like Unionists or the Anglo Irish class will not play well.

*Nolan is Dunphy when it comes to politics...controversy and stoking hate keeps him in a job.

jm08

Fionn1952 wrote: »

All other stuff aside, Nolan is absolutely not representative of the general populace of NI. His audiences are very carefully and intentionally chosen to get the sort of reactions you see. He is more akin to Jerry Springer than legitimate political commentary.

This isn't a matter of opinion by the way, it is purely factual. Should you watch it enough, you'll notice even in the audience, the same faces showing up time and time again.

Yes, Nolan just likes to stir it up. I've never seen the amount of shouting in an RTE studio that he generated when he and Claire Byrne swapped seats - Claire in Belfast, and Nolan in Dublin. They had an excellent discussion in Belfast chaired by Claire Byrne where usually they are all shouting at each other.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your judgement is deeply deeply suspect again.

You are correct, FF/FG/Lab all engaging in exclusionary politics and the Irish electorate told all 3 what they thought of that, returning SF as the biggest party.

What you miss about Irish culture is that there is a folk memory of exclusion. FG FF and Lab behaving like Unionists or the Anglo Irish class will not play well.

*Nolan is Dunphy when it comes to politics...controversy and stoking hate keeps him in a job.

See this is more SF speak 'exclusionary politics'. But SF are excluding themselves because a voters block mandate - 'mondate' as Gerry is fond of saying do not want SF in government in the ROI.

You have to ask yourself why is this -

1) They find SF morally repugnant and thier double speak when it comes to morality only sticks in peoples craw all the more. SF almost revel in not tidying up thier baggage from the troubles and long after it

2) As a result of the first point this voters block in the does not trust SF to lead in DE

3) We saw evidence of the Republican pantomime brought to the ROI during the general election. SF TD's with - aggressive flag waving. Tiocfaidh ár lá's and playing of rebel songs in a provocative fashion. This again only proved in the minds of the ROI voters block (who do not want SF in government) that SF have not grown up politically.

SF are excluding themselves by not engendering trust to the larger portion of the ROI electorate. But of course SF never have the realisation to see it that way, or admit it.
--

Now in NI the Unionists tolerate SF fair dues to them for that. They share power for the sake of peace. But if I as a ROI voter who can SF for what it is. How do you think Unionists feel in NI? With all the 'Peace Walls' segregation and Ghettoisation how do you think a UI is going to work?

I mean look at who many GAA clubs are named after and this is supposed to be an apolitical organisation!

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/naming-of-clubs-after-fanatics-shouldn-t-be-tolerated-by-the-gaa-1.1575008

Even look at the tricolour. It is supposed to represent the Catholic tradition (Green), Peace harmony (White), Protestant tradition (Orange)

Now how often how you heard the tricolour referred to as Green, White and Gold

But in Article 7 of the Irish constitution it clearly states:

"The National Flag is the Tricolour of Green, White and Orange."

So why do a lot of people refer to the tricolour as Green, White and Gold?
Honestly people who do, want to deny the orange part and lessen it's significance. A subtle trick.

All these type of things add up to a prospect of an unwelcoming UI for Unionists.
It hardly shouts come on in George and Harriet from the Shankhill road you will be more than welcome in a UI. If I was a Unionist I would feel with some justification, that Republicanism wants to wipe Unionism from the map. Piece by piece by piece. And when Republicans shout 'Brits out' they really mean Unionism.

So I honestly don't think Ireland is ready for a UI, nor are SF, nor are the Unionists. A UI means real inclusion and given the recent overt OTT symbolism from SF in the 2020 GE in the ROI. I feel there is a long way to go yet. Divisiveness is still bubbling under the surface. A UI would not work as a result and the ROI is not equipped to peacefully secure NI (as it currently is) either.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

See this is more SF speak 'exclusionary politics'. But SF are excluding themselves because a voters block mandate - 'mondate' as Gerry is fond of saying do not want SF in government in the ROI.

You have to ask yourself why is this -

1) They find SF morally repugnant and thier double speak when it comes to morality only sticks in peoples craw all the more. SF almost revel in not tidying up thier baggage from the troubles and long after it

2) As a result of the first point this voters block in the does not trust SF to lead in DE

3) We saw evidence of the Republican pantomime brought to the ROI during the general election. SF TD's with - aggressive flag waving. Tiocfaidh ár lá's and playing of rebel songs in a provocative fashion. This again only proved in the minds of the ROI voters block who do not want SF in government, that SF have not grown up politically.

SF are excluding themselves by not engendering trust to the larger portion of the ROI electorate. But of course SF never have the realisation to see it that way, or admit it.
--

You are reading things into the election results that are not there.

I could posit the theory that 78% of the electorate voted against FG being in government on the back of your theory.

Now in NI the Unionists tolerate SF fair dues to them for that. They share power for the sake of peace.

Did you really say type that? Jesus H.

How very generous of the Unionists to 'share power'.

But if I as a ROI voter who can SF for what it is. How do you think Unionists feel in NI? With all the 'Peace Walls' segregation and Ghettoisation how do you think a UI is going to work?

Ah right...somebody who has no idea that peace walls exist in very limited areas. And again...they are all the fault of those pesky shinners.

What an abjectly uneducated thing to say.

I mean look at who many GAA clubs are named after and this is supposed to be an apolitical organisation!

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/naming-of-clubs-after-fanatics-shouldn-t-be-tolerated-by-the-gaa-1.1575008

The GAA is part of the SF conspiracy now?

The GAA call their clubs after members who have given service to the clubs. They are local decisions not central council decisions.
If you cannot accept that 'local' people can be allowed to remember their dead and that IRA members were part of communities then you are just being partisan. Take a trip around the north sometime and look at what nationalists have to tolerate as Unionists remember their dead. Largely without complaint too. Start with the original terrorist who re-introduced the gun to Irish politics in 1912/13, Edward Carson and work your way from there.

Even look at the tricolour. It is supposed to represent the Catholic tradition (Green), Peace harmony (White), Protestant tradition (Orange)

Now how often how you heard the tricolour referred to as Green, White and Gold

But in the Irish constitution it clearly states:

Article 7 of the constitution of Ireland states "The National Flag is the Tricolour of Green, White and Orange."

So why do a lot of people refer to the tricolour as Green, White and Gold?
Well the honest answer is people who do want to deny the orange part and lessen it's significance. A subtle trick.

Did a quick trip to the SF website there and any flags for sale are definitely Green White and Orange.

Who is playing this subtle trick? Can you back up this conspiracy?

All these type of things add up to a prospect of an unwelcoming UI for Unionists.
It hardly shouts come on in George and Harriet from the Shankhill road you will be more than welcome in a UI. If I was a Unionist I would feel with some justification, that Republicanism wants to wipe Unionism from the map. Piece by piece by piece. And when Republicans shout 'Brits out' they really mean Unionism.

When you invent boogeymen that aren't there, have a woeful, uneducated understanding of Irish culture there is no surprise there.

So I honestly don't think Ireland is ready for a UI, nor are SF nor, nor are the Unionists. A UI means real inclusion and given the recent overt OTT symbolism from SF in the 2020 GE in the ROI. I feel there is a long way to go yet. Divisiveness is still bubbling under the surface. A UI would not work as a result and the ROI is not equipped to peacefully secure NI (as it currently is) either.

What you mean is that 'YOU' are not ready. Not ready to include everyone in the democratic process and not ready to accept your own prejudices and exclusionary politics.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are reading things into the election results that are not there.

I could posit the theory that 78% of the electorate voted against FG being in government on the back of your theory.

Well if you don't want to take the blinkers off regarding that - there is no changing you.

Did you really say type that? Jesus H.

How very generous of the Unionists to 'share power'.

Well it is yeah considering they are in the majority in NI and no longer say NEVER, NEVER, NEVER.

Ah right...somebody who has no idea that peace walls exist in very limited areas. And again...they are all the fault of those pesky shinners.

What an abjectly uneducated thing to say.

Limited areas or not it is a clear demonstration that NI is not ready for a UI. Imagine the poor Gardai who were not long ago being shot and killed by the Provos - now going to have to put themselves in more danger for the sake of six counties in a UI. Some irony there.

The GAA is part of the SF conspiracy now?

I never said that it. I said such symbolism demonstrates lack of sensitivity and inclusiveness.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/naming-of-clubs-after-fanatics-shouldn-t-be-tolerated-by-the-gaa-1.1575008

Nowhere in the article above was there mention of SF - which indicates you did not read it.

The GAA call their clubs after members who have given service to the clubs. They are local decisions not central council decisions.
If you cannot accept that 'local' people can be allowed to remember their dead and that IRA members were part of communities then you are just being partisan. Take a trip around the north sometime and look at what nationalists have to tolerate as Unionists remember their dead. Largely without complaint too. Start with the original terrorist who re-introduced the gun to Irish politics in 1912/13, Edward Carson and work your way from there.

As far as I am concerned as far as Nationalist and Unionism in NI there is a pair of them in it. Both extremes as bad as each other. Who try to make a claim on who suffering more. It used to be baiting the heads off each other, or shooting each other. Now it is just words thankfully.

Did a quick trip to the SF website there and any flags for sale are definitely Green White and Orange.

Who is playing this subtle trick? Can you back up this conspiracy?

You are missing the point either willfully or because of blinkers. I bet 'out your way' you refer to the Green, White and Gold. It is deliberately less inclusive and a two fingers to the Protestant tradition.

When you invent boogeymen that aren't there, have a woeful, uneducated understanding of Irish culture there is no surprise there.

It seems that your understanding of Irish culture is all leaning one way, as proven by your regular posts - full of 'SF speak'.

What you mean is that 'YOU' are not ready. Not ready to include everyone in the democratic process and not ready to accept your own prejudices and exclusionary politics.

It seems it is you who has the deep rooted prejudice. Because I have yet to see any suggestions by you on how to promote inclusion among Unionists in a UI, and make it a more welcoming place.

If there was a border poll now, it would be nothing more than an exercise in Republican Mickey waving. Numbers are not there. When the vote is lost what will SF do then? They will have shot themselves in the foot - only metaphorically and politically.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well if you don't want to take the blinkers off regarding that - there is no changing you.

And if you cannot see exclusionary politics in the vein of Unionism and the Anglo Irish ascendancy then if you are representative of FF FG you are doomed to the inevitable. Irish culture rejects that kind of exclusion. Learn from history.

Well it is yeah considering they are in the majority in NI and no longer say NEVER, NEVER, NEVER.

They are in an 'artificially created' majority. They have gerrymandered and excluded until the place went up in flames and are now being run under the aegis of two sovereign independent governments operating internationally binding agreement which recognises the above and seeks to fix the artificial imbalance.

Limited areas or not it is a clear demonstration that NI is not ready for a UI. Imagine the poor Gardai who were not long ago being shot and killed by the Provos - now going to have to put themselves in more danger for the sake of six counties in a UI. Some irony there.

Why would nationalists be attacking Gardai in a UI? Would there be 'Gardai' policing these areas?

I never said that it. I said such symbolism demonstrates lack of sensitivity and inclusiveness.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/naming-of-clubs-after-fanatics-shouldn-t-be-tolerated-by-the-gaa-1.1575008

Nowhere in the article above was there mention of SF - which indicates you did not read it.

So what are your proposals to fix this?
Allow people to respectfully remember their dead or remove all symbolism?

As far as I am concerned as far as Nationist and Unionism in NI there is a pair of them in it. Both extremes as bad as each other. Who try to make a claim on who suffering more while baiting the heads off each other, or shooting each other. Now it is just words thankfully.




You are missing the point either willfully or because of blinkers. I bet 'out your way' you refer to the Green, White and Gold. It is deliberately less inclusive and a two fingers to the Protestant tradition.



It seems that your understanding of Irish culture is all leaning one way, as proven by your regular posts - full of 'SF speak'.



It seems it is you who seem to have the deep rooted prejudice. Because I have yet to see any suggestions by you on how to promotion inclusion among Unionists in a UI and make it a more welcoming place.

If there was a border poll now it would be nothing more than an exercise in Republican Mickey waving. Numbers are not there. When the vote is lost what will SF do then? They will have shot themselves in the foot - only metaphorically and politically.

Unionists have to engage if they want to be included. I have no fear of any proposals they may make. Moderate Unionism can make a tremendous contribution to a UI.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And if you cannot see exclusionary politics in the vein of Unionism and the Anglo Irish ascendancy then if you are representative of FF FG you are doomed to the inevitable. Irish culture rejects that kind of exclusion. Learn from history.

Irish people mostly exclude thier own culture and language. And in reality identify more with Britain. Here we are conversing in English, and even you admit you used to support Nottingham Forrest -Clough.

They are in an 'artificially created' majority. They have gerrymandered and excluded until the place went up in flames and are now being run under the aegis of two sovereign independent governments operating internationally binding agreement which recognises the above and seeks to fix the artificial imbalance.

It was caused by the misguided nature of the republican force tradition. If 1916 never happened Ireland would likely be united and free to govern now.

Why would nationalists be attacking Gardai in a UI? Would there be 'Gardai' policing these areas?

I did not say nationalists. I said in danger. Because a UI would likely be a non inclusive state for Unionists.

So what are your proposals to fix this?
Allow people to respectfully remember their dead or remove all symbolism?

I certainly would remove all emotive names and change them to something that both traditions can appreciate. GAA clubs should be renamed.

It is deliberately rubbing peoples noses in it not 'honouring the dead' it is a big fúck you to the other tradition on this island.
You only have to look at Raymond McCreesh Park in Newry which was renamed after Maze Hunger Striker in 2001. A fella who was involved in the murder of 10 protestant workmen. The park was at the time a children's playground! How is that inclusive? And helping young minds move on towards a sense of inclusion and togetherness?

Unionists have to engage if they want to be included. I have no fear of any proposals they may make. Moderate Unionism can make a tremendous contribution to a UI.

Where is moderate Republicanism? You can hardly describe SF as moderate?

--

How would you try and include Unionist's in a UI?
Say Mary Lou resigns. New challenge to her leadership. And SF appoint FrancieBrady a fearless, committed boards.ie SF activist as shock new leader. You win GE 2024 in a landslide (thanks to a strong boards.ie voter base)

You then call for a border poll. And win it causing a UI. How would you - Taoiseach FrancieBrady set about including the Unionist tradition?

Besides the obvious of appointing DownCow (Independent Unionist) as the Unionist Culture spokesperson what would you do?

BonnieSituation

What the the hell was all of that?

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your judgement is deeply deeply suspect again.

You are correct, FF/FG/Lab all engaging in exclusionary politics and the Irish electorate told all 3 what they thought of that, returning SF as the biggest party.

What you miss about Irish culture is that there is a folk memory of exclusion. FG FF and Lab behaving like Unionists or the Anglo Irish class will not play well.

*Nolan is Dunphy when it comes to politics...controversy and stoking hate keeps him in a job.

FF got the most seats so are the biggest party

BonnieSituation

Shefwedfan wrote: »

FF got the most seats so are the biggest party

Now now. Be accurate, FF HAVE the most seats.

Themselves and SF both won the same amount of seats.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What the the hell was all of that?

My point was real inclusiveness is never made towards the Unionist tradition to try and say you would be welcome in a UI . Everything is provocative. Yet at the same time many Republican voters identify with British culture day to day. Music sport and don't speak Irish.

Yet we have this twilight zone contradictory stuff: Where a Children's playground gets named after a fella involved in murder of 10 Protestant workmen back in 1976.

See Raymond McCreesh Park in Newry only named in 2001!



If that is not taking the piss and rubbing Unionist's noses in it - I don't know what is.

The very opposite of the inclusiveness necessary to have a successful UI.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

My point was real inclusiveness is never made towards the Unionist tradition. Everything is provocative. Yet at the same time many Republican voters identify with British culture day to day. Music sport and don't speak Irish.

Yet we have this twilight zone contradictory stuff of Children's playgrounds getting named after a fella involved in murder of 10 Protestant workmen back in 1976.

See Raymond McCreesh Park in Newry only named in 2001!



If that is not taking the piss and rubbing Unionist's noses in it I don't know what is. The very opposite of the inclusiveness necessary to have a successful UI.

When Unionists look to be included I have no issues whatsoever.
I deal with unionists every day of the week.

What you are looking for is concessions towards belligerents.
I advocate none
Neither for belligerent unonists or nationalists (commonly known as dissidents)
And once there is a successful vote partitionists can kindly find something else to worry about.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When Unionists look to be included I have no issues whatsoever.
I deal with unionists every day of the week.

What you are looking for is concessions towards belligerents.
I advocate none
Neither for belligerent unonists or nationalists (commonly known as dissidents)
And once there is a successful vote partitionists can kindly find something else to worry about.

So you have given zero concessions to ANY Unionists. Naming playgrounds after fellas like Raymond McCreesh you see nothing wrong with it?
What do the Unionist's you 'deal' with think of the likes of that?

Hardly going make them vote for UI is it or feel part of it? It will be doomed before it begins, with that attitude. It stinks of bigotry and piss taking.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So you have given zero concessions to ANY Unionists. Naming playgrounds after fellas like Raymond McCreesh you see nothing wrong with it?
What do the Unionist's you 'deal' with think of the likes of that?

Hardly going make them vote for UI is it or feel part of it? It will be doomed before it begins, with that attitude. It stinks of bigotry and piss taking.

Zero concessions to belligerent Unionists.

No problem discussing every aspect of a new Ireland with anyone willing to be moderate and democratic.

I have said more than once that flags and anthems matter not a bit to me. I would vote against joining the Commonwealth on EU and monarchy grounds. If a majority decide they want to do it...fine by me.

Regarding McCreesh...that park was named on foot of a proposal supported by SF the SDLP and independents.

There is very little to be gained from disallowing people from remembering their dead, both sides have 'dead'.

It isn't hard to accommodate if you accept that there are as many symbols of remembrance to British oppression and Loyalism as there are Republican memorials.

As long as the motive is remembrance and it isn't done to taunt, triumphalise or enflame, I have no problem with either side doing it.

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

My point was real inclusiveness is never made towards the Unionist tradition to try and say you would be welcome in a UI . Everything is provocative. Yet at the same time many Republican voters identify with British culture day to day. Music sport and don't speak Irish.

Yet we have this twilight zone contradictory stuff: Where a Children's playground gets named after a fella involved in murder of 10 Protestant workmen back in 1976.

See Raymond McCreesh Park in Newry only named in 2001!

I know what point you were flailing about at. I was being dismissive of it.

You've an awful weird understanding of Northern politics.

Brendan Bendar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Zero concessions to belligerent Unionists.

No problem discussing every aspect of a new Ireland with anyone willing to be moderate and democratic.

I have said more than once that flags and anthems matter not a bit to me. I would vote against joining the Commonwealth on EU and monarchy grounds. If a majority decide they want to do it...fine by me.

Regarding McCreesh...that park was named on foot of a proposal supported by SF the SDLP and independents.

There is very little to be gained from disallowing people from remembering their dead, both sides have 'dead'.

It isn't hard to accommodate if you accept that there are as many symbols of remembrance to British oppression and Loyalism as there are Republican memorials.

As long as the motive is remembrance and it isn't done to taunt, triumphalise or enflame, I have no problem with either side doing it.

What kind of a stupid statement is that?

Is there a ‘Hitler Memorial Park’ anywhere around.

Is there a ‘Jimmy Saville Sports Centre’ around.

I have heard challenged statements made, but that one takes the biscuit.

The mind boggles.

Brendan Bendar

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

My point was real inclusiveness is never made towards the Unionist tradition to try and say you would be welcome in a UI . Everything is provocative. Yet at the same time many Republican voters identify with British culture day to day. Music sport and don't speak Irish.

Yet we have this twilight zone contradictory stuff: Where a Children's playground gets named after a fella involved in murder of 10 Protestant workmen back in 1976.

See Raymond McCreesh Park in Newry only named in 2001!



If that is not taking the piss and rubbing Unionist's noses in it - I don't know what is.

The very opposite of the inclusiveness necessary to have a successful UI.

These people just don’t understand, a chara.

They think that that kind of stuff is fine and dandy and shure those with opposite views would be quite happy with that kind of action.

Shows how far removed from reality these churns are and how out of touch the ideology these clowns live in.

They will come on now with nothing else to do but spend another week dancing on the head of a pin trying to wriggle out of this crap.

Meanwhile the rest of us get on with it, get up early, and keep our country moving.

How do these coins get away with it.

FrancieBrady

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

What kind of a stupid statement is that?

Is there a ‘Hitler Memorial Park’ anywhere around.

Is there a ‘Jimmy Saville Sports Centre’ around.

I have heard challenged statements made, but that one takes the biscuit.

The mind boggles.

What would be the 'motive' behind remembering them Brendan?

McCreesh was memorialised on foot of an application supported by SF, SDLP and Independents.

Do applications have to be run by you...is that what you are saying here?

You are either in favour of allowing people remember their dead or you are not.

If you aren't then the only democratic way to do that is stop every side from doing it.

Brendan Bendar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What would be the 'motive' behind remembering them Brendan?

McCreesh was memorialised on foot of an application supported by SF, SDLP and Independents.

Do applications have to be run by you...is that what you are saying here?

You are either in favour of allowing people remember their dead or you are not.

If you aren't then the only democratic way to do that is stop every side from doing it.

Francie, I have to say not in an insulting way or anything like that but your lack of common sense and how other people view things astounds me!

Not withstanding the person involved how you could try to spin the naming of that play area was anything but inflammatory.

Now I am not interested in dancing on the head of a pin for 30 or 40 posts, but to any right minded person, irrespective of leaning, irrespective of siding, that did nothing to advance a UI.

And as I keep saying, there’s the reason why the ROI, by and large want nothing to do with that kind of surreptitious fccccukery.

Open your eyes,dude, come out of the caves and the windswept glens.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Zero concessions to belligerent Unionists.

No problem discussing every aspect of a new Ireland with anyone willing to be moderate and democratic.

I have said more than once that flags and anthems matter not a bit to me. I would vote against joining the Commonwealth on EU and monarchy grounds. If a majority decide they want to do it...fine by me.

Regarding McCreesh...that park was named on foot of a proposal supported by SF the SDLP and independents.

There is very little to be gained from disallowing people from remembering their dead, both sides have 'dead'.

It isn't hard to accommodate if you accept that there are as many symbols of remembrance to British oppression and Loyalism as there are Republican memorials.

As long as the motive is remembrance and it isn't done to taunt, triumphalise or enflame, I have no problem with either side doing it.

I disagree. I think it is time we give serious consideration to taking down memorials to slave traders, child abusers and terrorists. Of course you're going to try to open a debate on who are terrorists. And yes of course it is a continuum, but surely we can all agree that Johnny Adair, Raymond McCreesh, Billy Wright, Bobby Sands, Martin McGuinness, etc are clearly terrorists. It gets more confusing when people are carrying out the orders of the state, wearing a uniform, and operating above the radar. But that does not mean that we should not take down the memorials to which all but the most extreme nutters can agree have done horrendous things to their fellow man

FrancieBrady

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Francie, I have to say not in an insulting way or anything like that but your lack of common sense and how other people view things astounds me!

Not withstanding the person involved how you could try to spin the naming of that play area was anything but inflammatory.

Now I am not interested in dancing on the head of a pin for 30 or 40 posts, but to any right minded person, irrespective of leaning, irrespective of siding, that did nothing to advance a UI.

And as I keep saying, there’s the reason why the ROI, by and large want nothing to do with that kind of surreptitious fccccukery.

Open your eyes,dude, come out of the caves and the windswept glens.

And I would say, along with a very high percentage of people that erecting a statue to a man who re-introduced the gun to Irish politics is 'inflammatory' if you want it to be, as well as a lot of other statuery and symbolism. Ever driven around Belfast or other spots in the North Brendan?

If you accept that people have a right to memorialise and remember their dead then there isn't a problem.

Would I call a playpark after an IRA volunteer...probably not, but then I wouldn't be memorialising Carson or any British regiment or service either.

So which is it Brendan...an accommodation or take it ALL down?

How much of a democrat are you, in other words?

gormdubhgorm

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Francie, I have to say not in an insulting way or anything like that but your lack of common sense and how other people view things astounds me!

Not withstanding the person involved how you could try to spin the naming of that play area was anything but inflammatory.

Now I am not interested in dancing on the head of a pin for 30 or 40 posts, but to any right minded person, irrespective of leaning, irrespective of siding, that did nothing to advance a UI.

And as I keep saying, there’s the reason why the ROI, by and large want nothing to do with that kind of surreptitious fccccukery.

Open your eyes,dude, come out of the caves and the windswept glens.

Exactly there is zero common sense or zero sensitivity in Francie. All he has off full patter is SF speak line by line. No deviation from it.
It exactly why I went off the idea of a UI when I realised the games and WUM nature of NI. It goes for both sides they can feck off as far as I am concerned.

What would be wrong with naming that kids park in Newry after singer like, Rose-Marie Avramescu.
Better known as Rose-Maire. She is from Newry.
But no, they had to pick a person who would wind up the otherside the most. A fella that was involved in the murder of 10 Protestant workmen.

Here is Rose-Maire by the way. Probably some never heard of her because she did not kill anyone.

Plenty of sportsmen that have common bond across both sides of NI that could be used to name places. Barry McGuigan for instance a fella who did not want to get sucked into the eejitry of either side. Or rugby players the only all island team.

Feck all chance of a UI and a peaceful at that, if both sides are more interested in fanning flames. And winding each other up to the max.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Zero concessions to belligerent Unionists.

No problem discussing every aspect of a new Ireland with anyone willing to be moderate and democratic.

I have said more than once that flags and anthems matter not a bit to me. I would vote against joining the Commonwealth on EU and monarchy grounds. If a majority decide they want to do it...fine by me.

Regarding McCreesh...that park was named on foot of a proposal supported by SF the SDLP and independents.

There is very little to be gained from disallowing people from remembering their dead, both sides have 'dead'.

It isn't hard to accommodate if you accept that there are as many symbols of remembrance to British oppression and Loyalism as there are Republican memorials.

As long as the motive is remembrance and it isn't done to taunt, triumphalise or enflame, I have no problem with either side doing it.

Raymond McCreesh was involved in the murder of 10 protestant work men is that not inflamatory enough? Maybe if it was 11 it might have tipped it over
the edge? And I am aware how it was named on consensus that makes it seem even worse.

The SDLP thankfully are coming to thier senses on it.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/sdlp-leadership-backs-renaming-of-raymond-mccreesh-park-36815769.html

How were they even 'legitimate targets' in SF speak?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsmill_massacre


I think all the symbolism should be toned down or got rid of completely from both sides of it. All the Royal preffixs dropped. And sides stop naming places after people who murdered each other and dressed it up as war.

If people like you have this unbending attitude FrancieBrady there will NEVER be a UI. I am not even a Unionist, and I find your attitude a bit sickening if I am honest.

You say you want a UI but you don't really want inclusion you just hope the Unionists will know thier place and put up with it. You were the same fella who was up in arms over an RIC commemoration. Yet can see nothing wrong with naming places after fellas who killed unarmed civilians like McCreesh did.

But I suppose the 'nobleness' of the republican hunger strike blinds you to any negative view?

FrancieBrady

Let's stop the bull**** and the onesided stuff here:


Answer these questions and we'll see where we are at:



1: Should people be allowed to remember their dead (regardless of how you think of them)

2: If your answer to 1. is NO then how do you apply that democratically?

I await your answers with bated breath.

Brendan Bendar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Let's stop the bull**** and the onesided stuff here:


Answer these questions and we'll see where we are at:



1: Should people be allowed to remember their dead (regardless of how you think of them)

2: If your answer to 1. is NO then how do you apply that democratically?

I await your answers with bated breath.

No problem at all

1. yes ( you can’t stop folk thinking, a chara)

2.Remember them in your own heart and mind.


Simples.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Let's stop the bull**** and the onesided stuff here:


Answer these questions and we'll see where we are at:



1: Should people be allowed to remember their dead (regardless of how you think of them)

2: If your answer to 1. is NO then how do you apply that democratically?

I await your answers with bated breath.

I will answer that question with quote from a man from a border county.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As long as the motive is remembrance and it isn't done to taunt, triumphalise or enflame, I have no problem with either side doing it.

I would prefer if this martyrdom of the dead, who killed other people stopped. It is why Ireland is in the trouble it is in the first place.
But if this is not possible.
In order for it to be democratic a vote should be taken from all sides of the divide at the appropriate level - relative to the level of concern.

If a qualified majority is reached two thirds, only then should a name change etc be accepted.
In doing so far less controversial figures can be celebrated that both sides respect, or are at least not offended by.