How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

gormdubhgorm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

A term from the 1930s/40s is an internet trendy buzzword now, GDG?!?

Certainly there is merit in cross-community groups deciding place names (or feasibly a blanket ban on anyone involved with The Troubles on either side for now until more time passes), but the idea that controversial memorials are unique to NI is absurd.

Ignoring a discussion on the merits of Black Lives Matter, you'll notice there are controversial statues all around the world being targeted through this movement. Closer to home, the Sean Russell statue is hardly uncontroversial.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Hilarious isn't it? I wasn't going to bother trying to explain that.

As for the gaslighting thing yes it was appropriated from a 1944 film but it became a buzzword in about 2018

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/columnists/gaslighting-is-a-buzzword-right-now-but-use-it-with-caution-173308

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/18/gaslighting-gammon-year-buzzwords-oxford-dictionaries

I never said conversational memorials were unique to Ni.
What is unique to NI is the hypocrisy and points scoring in such a small area of land.
From a people who are all probably related anyway.

Example: Ken Maginnis and Martin McGuinness

http://www.ssi-developer.net/macaonghusa/name-variations.shtml

jm08

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well I hope your right because I am sick listening to all the carry on of the DUP and SF.
But partition was not only caused by Unionists it was caused by Republicans as well. If the long game was played instead of crash, bang, wallop Republicanism.Ireland would be better off today. I still think things should be left well enough alone rather than risking chaos.

Redmond ignored unionists when seeking Home Rule for Ireland - he thought that Westminister would ignore the Ulster Volunteers military threat. He sent 1000s of Irish men to their death in WWI. John Bruton is talking through his hat when he claims that Home Rule would have been achieved peacefully.



You should watch Michael Portilo's Documentary 'Hawks & Doves'' which is based on the British side leading up to the War of Independence. Its on the RTE Player at the moment.

jm08

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

As for the gaslighting thing yes it was appropriated from a 1944 film but it became a buzzword in about 2018

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/columnists/gaslighting-is-a-buzzword-right-now-but-use-it-with-caution-173308

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/18/gaslighting-gammon-year-buzzwords-oxford-dictionaries

I never said conversational memorials were unique to Ni.
What is unique to NI is the hypocrisy and points scoring in such a small area of land.
From a people who are all probably related anyway.

Example: Ken Maginnis and Martin McGuinness

http://www.ssi-developer.net/macaonghusa/name-variations.shtml

All these memorials and monuments are a British imperialist thing. It took 80 years after the death of Michael Collins before he got a statue in his hometown! Similarly for Dev who has one down in Clare.



A lot of these problems would have been solved if they used the Maze to house a museum of the troubles for both sides and keep them off the streets. All flags should be banned as well up there.

gormdubhgorm

jm08 wrote: »

A lot of these problems would have been solved if they used the Maze to house a museum of the troubles for both sides and keep them off the streets. All flags should be banned as well up there.

I agree with this bit anyway put all the stuff from both sides in one spot. So they can all be looked at.

Surprised a joint statue of 'the Chuckle Brothers' (McGuinness and Paisley) has not being considered.

Junkyard Tom

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I agree with this bit anyway put all the stuff from both sides in one spot. So they can all be looked at.

Unionists would fight that tooth and nail, they want Republicans/Nationalists to make themselves invisible while they spend all summer waving flags and marching around the place.

Can you not see this?

jm08

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I agree with this bit anyway put all the stuff from both sides in one spot. So they can all be looked at.

Surprised a joint statue of 'the Chuckle Brothers' (McGuinness and Paisley) has not being considered.

There is a Peace Charity in memory of Martin McGuinness and there is some sort of a sculpture for Ian Paisley (using a tree from his garden) I think in East Belfast.


Nothing to get anyone riled up.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

All these memorials and monuments are a British imperialist thing. It took 80 years after the death of Michael Collins before he got a statue in his hometown! Similarly for Dev who has one down in Clare.



A lot of these problems would have been solved if they used the Maze to house a museum of the troubles for both sides and keep them off the streets. All flags should be banned as well up there.

Are you for real?. “All flags should be banned up there”. Hahaha

gormdubhgorm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Unionists would fight that tooth and nail, they want Republicans/Nationalists to make themselves invisible while they spend all summer waving flags and marching around the place.

Can you not see this?

No I can't because I can see codology from both sides all the time.

Republicans whinging about flags picture showing loyalist flags

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Gxp1jWek3YgJ:https://www.irishnews.com/lifestyle/2020/06/27/news/mary-kelly-do-unionist-politicians-understand-the-reality-of-their-flag-culture--1984450/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

An Alliance proposal to stop the Union flag flying all year round at sites in Ards and North Down has been defeated.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/alliance-proposal-to-stop-flying-union-flag-year-round-defeated-39000809.html

Whinging whining and moaning. You would swear it is all one sided. Pair of them in it. Which is why There should be a move towards a more apolitical common ground simple as that. But they are all glorified county councillors in NI so what would I expect I suppose.

Some want more statues built - but not those from the political sphere thankfully

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oNApgoPVjhcJ:https://www.irishnews.com/lifestyle/2020/06/27/news/jake-o-kane-rather-than-let-statues-divide-us-even-further-i-say-we-build-more-1985667/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Which is along the lines I think is the way to go.

The Golden Miller

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

No I can't because I can see codology from both sides all the time.

Republicans whinging about flags picture showing loyalist flags

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Gxp1jWek3YgJ:https://www.irishnews.com/lifestyle/2020/06/27/news/mary-kelly-do-unionist-politicians-understand-the-reality-of-their-flag-culture--1984450/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

An Alliance proposal to stop the Union flag flying all year round at sites in Ards and North Down has been defeated.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/alliance-proposal-to-stop-flying-union-flag-year-round-defeated-39000809.html

Whinging whining and moaning. You would swear it is all one sided. Pair of them in it. Which is why There should be a move towards a more apolitical common ground simple as that. But they are all glorified county councillors in NI so what would I expect I suppose.

Some want more statues built - but not those from the political sphere thankfully

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oNApgoPVjhcJ:https://www.irishnews.com/lifestyle/2020/06/27/news/jake-o-kane-rather-than-let-statues-divide-us-even-further-i-say-we-build-more-1985667/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Which is along the lines I think is the way to go.

Your happy to moan and whinge yourself about republicanism ad nauseam, yet when it comes to giving even slight criticism of unionism, it's back to the "both sides" rhetoric. It seems anyone who dislike SF on this site usually have one train of thought, they think objective reasoning is castigating republicans on all matters, and when pulled up and questioned on any criticism of unionism or the lack of balance they bring, they revert to the "both sides" codolgy and slowly try and bring the topic back to republicanism

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Are you for real?. “All flags should be banned up there”. Hahaha

Since they cause so much trouble it might be the only option now at this stage.



What do you think of having a museum to house all memorials and tell the story of the Troubles so as to remove them from ad hoc stuff on the streets?
It works fairly well down here - and we actually had a Civil War where families were divided on either side and it has taken a 100 years for the two main parties to actually go into Government together!

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Are you for real?. “All flags should be banned up there”. Hahaha

You are great at praising yourself for 'answering every question you are asked'.
Could you answer this one:
Why is a public space devoid of offensive memorials 'unachievable'?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Since they cause so much trouble it might be the only option now at this stage.



What do you think of having a museum to house all memorials and tell the story of the Troubles so as to remove them from ad hoc stuff on the streets?
It works fairly well down here - and we actually had a Civil War where families were divided on either side and it has taken a 100 years for the two main parties to actually go into Government together!

I have felt for a long time that we need to tell the story/stories all in one venue.
The only way it could work is if the significant groups were given floorspace according to the size of the organisation, and they tell the story from their angle of the troubles. Then people could wander around and hear all the stories and make up their own minds.
I.e. IRA, UDA, RUC, GAA, Orange Order, the churches etc would have large spaces to fill while the dissidents could have a big cupboard lol.

There is absolutely no way to reach an agreed story. The reality is that each side will want to tell the horrors of what happened them.
I am certain militant republicans will not entertain this, because for the first time ever, the horrors of the blatantly sectarian murder-fest will be exposed for all to see. They won't touch it with a bargepole. The British military probably won't be that keen either. But there would be an easy solution to all of this, and that would be that the space would be offered and if the group did not want to take it to tell their story then it could be left empty which would tell another story

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are great at praising yourself for 'answering every question you are asked'.
Could you answer this one:
Why is a public space devoid of offensive memorials 'unachievable'?

Quite simply because we would be discussing, and trying to reach agreement on, the full list of offensive memorials for the next 50 years. This is why I have tried to narrow you down to see if you can even name one or two in your own community.
It is incredibly subjective what is an offensive memorial, and you will find dozens in every small town and village, whether it be buildings named, memorial stones, cenotaphs, sporting clubs named, the list goes on and on.
Are you really telling me that you think agreement could be reached on the full list of offensive memorials to be removed? Or would you be happy to spend 50 years discussing it thereby removing any need to do anything?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are great at praising yourself for 'answering every question you are asked'.
Could you answer this one:
Why is a public space devoid of offensive memorials 'unachievable'?

They would have to be identified - could you give me a shortlist of memorials which your community has put up which are offensive and should be removed. If you can't do that then this is all a red herring

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Since they cause so much trouble it might be the only option now at this stage.
r!

Francie wants every memorial removed and you want every flag removed. You guys are really in cuckoo land. But it is all good deflection from having to address any issues within your own community.

Can I ask you a similar question I asked Francie around memorials.
Just to be clear, by every flag, I take it you mean football flags, GAA flags, rainbow flags, festival flags, advertising flags. If not then maybe you could clarify

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Quite simply because we would be discussing, and trying to reach agreement on, the full list of offensive memorials for the next 50 years. This is why I have tried to narrow you down to see if you can even name one or two in your own community.
It is incredibly subjective what is an offensive memorial, and you will find dozens in every small town and village, whether it be buildings named, memorial stones, cenotaphs, sporting clubs named, the list goes on and on.
Are you really telling me that you think agreement could be reached on the full list of offensive memorials to be removed? Or would you be happy to spend 50 years discussing it thereby removing any need to do anything?

You set up a commission to review each request. NI isn't that big.

Not asking for an itemised list. CAIN and other sources estimate several hundred.

Do you agree with the principle of removing all offensive memorials?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I am certain militant republicans will not entertain this, because for the first time ever, the horrors of the blatantly sectarian murder-fest will be exposed for all to see.

You're probably confusing Republicans with 'any Taig will do' unionist paramilitaries, one of these paramilitary groups was literally set up by a psychopathic sectarian paedophile.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You're probably confusing Republicans with 'any Taig will do' unionist paramilitaries, one of these paramilitary groups was literally set up by a psychopathic sectarian paedophile.

I am not confusing anything. Republicans will not want their blatant sectarianism exposed for all to see with the facts laid out.

....and I had never even heard of john McKeague. But the IRAs main figurehead protected a paedophile rapist brother and in just one of his pieces of work he masterminded the burning to death of 12 Protestants out for dinner for no reason other that their religion, and says he was never in the ira, and organised the killing of Jean mcconville.
So your main man was a paedo-protecting, sectarian, woman-killer and pathological liar. Who has mysteriously became wealthy.
You see the problem !

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You set up a commission to review each request. NI isn't that big.

Not asking for an itemised list. CAIN and other sources estimate several hundred.

Do you agree with the principle of removing all offensive memorials?

Since you are saying there are only a few hundred then I would need to know how you are defining them as I reckon there are thousands.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Since you are saying there are only a few hundred then I would need to know how you are defining them as I reckon there are thousands.

What exactly do you need to know.
You or I can not be the arbiters of 'what is offensive' that has to be left to an independent panel. You and I can though answer the question...Do you agree with the principle of removing all offensive memorials?

declanflynn

downcow wrote: »

I am not confusing anything. Republicans will not want their blatant sectarianism exposed for all to see with the facts laid out.

....and I had never even heard of john McKeague. But the IRAs main figurehead protected a paedophile rapist brother and in just one of his pieces of work he masterminded the burning to death of 12 Protestants out for dinner for no reason other that their religion, and says he was never in the ira, and organised the killing of Jean mcconville.
So your main man was a paedo-protecting, sectarian, woman-killer and pathological liar. Who has mysteriously became wealthy.
You see the problem !

Its time you went back to the mainland

gormdubhgorm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Your happy to moan and whinge yourself about republicanism ad nauseam, yet when it comes to giving even slight criticism of unionism, it's back to the "both sides" rhetoric. It seems anyone who dislike SF on this site usually have one train of thought, they think objective reasoning is castigating republicans on all matters, and when pulled up and questioned on any criticism of unionism or the lack of balance they bring, they revert to the "both sides" codolgy and slowly try and bring the topic back to republicanism

I don't like the DUP OR SF as I see them as just two different sides of a battered broken record. Basically I think both parties can be particular cúnts when they want to be. No time for either until I see both moving away from pantomime and old 'rhetoric'. If you look at the links I had one from the Irish News and one from the Belfast Telegraph (previous post) - where I mentioned both sides whinging about flags. You obviously did not read the links?

'DUP speak' and 'SF speak' BOTH are considerably painful to listen to.
As a result I don't have much respect for a lot of NI politics as they brought the troubles on themselves. It will be the same now. Today's republican dissents will be tomorrows moderates, and some young Unionist head will realise that he was only giving himself an Ulcer not an Ulster.
Yet those two strands of gobshítes are expected to Unite and be a UI?
They can't even be civil with each other. As proven on this thread, plus the moderate voices get drowned out.

gormdubhgorm

declanflynn wrote: »

Its time you went back to the mainland

Great song about the mainland by Christy Moore

downcow

declanflynn wrote: »

Its time you went back to the mainland

I’m not from the mainland

BonnieSituation

Very good piece from well-known Slugger contributor, Choyaa:

https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/06/28/if-unionism-is-to-maintain-northern-irelands-membership-of-the-uk-then-it-must-change-and-evolve-otherwise-it-will-become-a-footnote-in-a-forgotten-story/

I'd suggest the likes of DC and GDG have a read.

declanflynn

downcow wrote: »

I’m not from the mainland

if not you were planted here

gormdubhgorm

declanflynn wrote: »

Its time you went back to the mainland

downcow wrote: »

I’m not from the mainland

Ah sure isn't it great have the bit of humour. It must be those Ulster fries.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Very good piece from well-known Slugger contributor, Choyaa:

https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/06/28/if-unionism-is-to-maintain-northern-irelands-membership-of-the-uk-then-it-must-change-and-evolve-otherwise-it-will-become-a-footnote-in-a-forgotten-story/

I'd suggest the likes of DC and GDG have a read.

Was reading that earlier.

downcow

declanflynn wrote: »

if not you were planted here

If you are talking about my ancestors. They’ve been here twice as long as your people who put the natives out of Australia. Maybe they should return to their homeland as well

declanflynn

downcow wrote: »

If you are talking about my ancestors. They’ve been here twice as long as your people who put the natives out of Australia. Maybe they should return to their homeland as well

Only thing worse than a brit is a west brit, mate.