How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

It was a bit more than that. The slaughter in WWI made returning soldiers think that maybe having nothing to do with the British Empire might be for the best. An Independent Republic became very attractive with the threat of conscription in 1918 and that is the major reason why people voted for Sinn Fein and a Republic.


The slaughter in WWI had the opposite effect on Northern Protestants who felt their sacrifice in WWI tied them even more tightly to the Empire.

Indeed, in addition many British people thought they had been stabbed in the back by Ireland whilst fighting for its life against Germany.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

Indeed, in addition many British people thought they had been stabbed in the back by Ireland whilst fighting for its life against Germany.

Seriously? About 200,000 Irish soldiers served in WW1. About 50,000 were killed.

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

Seriously? About 200,000 Irish soldiers served in WW1. About 50,000 were killed.

I'm referring to events in Dublin in 1916,not the brave Irish soldiers who fought against Germany.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm referring to events in Dublin in 1916,not the brave Irish soldiers who fought against Germany.

Indeed, Irish people could say something similar - 'Ireland stabbed in the back by Perfidious Albion, while its people died to maintain the British Empire.'


Did you know that in anticipation of Home Rule, the Irish Regiments brought a flag which was green with a harp on it to display as their flag and they were not allowed use it, insisting that the Irish regiments used the Ulster flag with Red Hand.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm referring to events in Dublin in 1916,not the brave Irish soldiers who fought against Germany.

While they Irish were fighting for you, you guys were indriscrimately shelling the heart out of Dublin, and for what?

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

While they Irish were fighting for you, you guys were indriscrimately shelling the heart out of Dublin, and for what?

The Irish soldiers weren't fighting for us,they were us.Ireland was regarded as the 'strong right arm' of the UK back in the day.Which made the betrayal even harder to take.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

The Irish soldiers weren't fighting for us,they were us.Ireland was regarded as the 'strong right arm' of the UK back in the day.Which made the betrayal even harder to take.

Well, they copped on that the British only considered the Irish to be good cannon fodder. The writing was on the wall that the British were going to


renege on Home Rule for the 3rd time in 30 years. Then of course there was the Curragh Mutiny in 1914 so as there wouldn't be Home Rule.

gormdubhgorm

RobMc59 wrote: »

The Irish soldiers weren't fighting for us,they were us.Ireland was regarded as the 'strong right arm' of The Second City of The Empirehe UK back in the day.Which made the betrayal even harder to take.

Correct Dublin was known as 'The Second City of The Empire' by some mostly in the 1800's until the late 19th Century.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S030574889690047X

Glasgow and Liverpool also tried to claim the unofficial title also.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

The Irish soldiers weren't fighting for us,they were us.Ireland was regarded as the 'strong right arm' of the UK back in the day.Which made the betrayal even harder to take.

A sizeable portion were deluded into thinking they were fighting for Home Rule while the British were wrecking their homes, a goo chunk were mercenaries, there for the money, some were tenants of the Anglo Irish with no choice and some were fighting for the Empire.

maccored

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

More pressing issues right now, a chara

“Civic nationwide discussions” are hardly what the country needs.

its what a UI needs before it can happen. we need to discuss, talk and figure out what a UI is going to look like. cant have it both ways fella - cant whinge it'll never work and then whinge about discussing it.

maccored

downcow wrote: »

What do they mean by nationwide. There is an internationally recognised national border at Newry. Which nation do they think need to discuss it?

countrywide then if you feel like being pedantic

downcow

maccored wrote: »

countrywide then if you feel like being pedantic

Which country are you talking about?

It’s not pedantic. It’s a bridge many republicans need to cross. You have to accept that that the gfa meant that any suggestion of the island being one nation or one country was gone by agreement until when/if the people vote otherwise.
So to go on referring to it as one nation/ country is disingenuous and dishonest

Brendan Bendar

maccored wrote: »

its what a UI needs before it can happen. we need to discuss, talk and figure out what a UI is going to look like. cant have it both ways fella - cant whinge it'll never work and then whinge about discussing it.

Like having a long drawn out discussion about your estates layout while your house is burning down..

Not right now dude.


Soz.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Which country are you talking about?

It’s not pedantic. It’s a bridge many republicans need to cross. You have to accept that that the gfa meant that any suggestion of the island being one nation or one country was gone by agreement until when/if the people vote otherwise.
So to go on referring to it as one nation/ country is disingenuous and dishonest

What?

You need to accept the GFA downcow - which legitimises the aspiration (Now read this bit carefully) to unite not the 'two' countries but 'the' country, singular.
You refer to it/call it what you want but you accepted the aspiration of others.

maccored

downcow wrote: »

Which country are you talking about?

It’s not pedantic. It’s a bridge many republicans need to cross. You have to accept that that the gfa meant that any suggestion of the island being one nation or one country was gone by agreement until when/if the people vote otherwise.
So to go on referring to it as one nation/ country is disingenuous and dishonest

No wonder Stormont is like it is if this is the kind of waffle they have to put up with.

luckily for you I found some crayons.

SF say every person, north and south, should have a good old yarn about a united Ireland - those who agree with the idea, those who don't agree (because how else can anyone understand their reasoning unless its expressed) and those who haven't made up their minds yet. Then see where they are.

I know the whole idea of actually working with other people and not just thinking about yourselves is a very alien concept to the unionist mindset, but its what needs to happen. Everyone needs to work together.

downcow

maccored wrote: »

No wonder Stormont is like it is if this is the kind of waffle they have to put up with.

luckily for you I found some crayons.

SF say every person, north and south, should have a good old yarn about a united Ireland - those who agree with the idea, those who don't agree (because how else can anyone understand their reasoning unless its expressed) and those who haven't made up their minds yet. Then see where they are.

I know the whole idea of actually working with other people and not just thinking about yourselves is a very alien concept to the unionist mindset, but its what needs to happen. Everyone needs to work together.

Why would you have a yarn about something you 100% don’t want and will likely never happen.
It would be like asking republicans to have a good yarn about removing all funding from Irish language.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

You need to accept the GFA downcow - which legitimises the aspiration (Now read this bit carefully) to unite not the 'two' countries but 'the' country, singular.
You refer to it/call it what you want but you accepted the aspiration of others.

Maybe you could share this phrase in its full context. I can’t find it and it seems at odds the sense of the rest of it. ?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Maybe you could share this phrase in its full context. I can’t find it and it seems at odds the sense of the rest of it. ?

It's there every time we talk about it DC.

It's not a 'United Ireland & somewhere else', it's a 'United Ireland'.

See another example that includes 'somewhere else'...i.e. The United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

You have to accept that that the gfa meant that any suggestion of the island being one nation or one country was gone by agreement until

You don't understand nationhood. Irish nationhood has little to do with jurisdiction. The French, Belgians, and Dutch didn't suddenly become German because they lost sovereignty in 1939.

Bar literal extermination there's not a damn thing you can do about Irish nationhood - it's just shows the perverse colonial nature of Unionism that it attempts to deny people of their identity.

The sooner we bring this failed farce of a construct called 'Northern Ireland' to an end the better for all of us.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

You need to accept the GFA downcow - which legitimises the aspiration (Now read this bit carefully) to unite not the 'two' countries but 'the' country, singular.
You refer to it/call it what you want but you accepted the aspiration of others.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's there every time we talk about it DC.

It's not a 'United Ireland & somewhere else', it's a 'United Ireland'.

See another example that includes 'somewhere else'...i.e. The United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland.

No mentions of "countries" at all. It is referred to as an Island with two parts obviously, otherwise it would not be partitioned!

recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by
agreement between the two parts respectively and without external
impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of
consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a
united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be
achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a
majority of the people of Northern Ireland;

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

No mentions of "countries" at all. It is referred to as an Island with two parts obviously, otherwise it would not be partitioned!

recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by
agreement between the two parts respectively and without external
impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of
consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a
united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be
achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a
majority of the people of Northern Ireland;

There are two parts to Monaghan..north and south too. We are talking about a United Ireland and always have been. We are not 'uniting wioth something else...like Northern Ireland did with Britain to form a United Kingdom, we are uniting TWO parts of Ireland.

If you now want to repudiate that, go ahead.

BonnieSituation

Sinzo wrote: »

Partition may have been a disaster for NI and the UK but not necessarily for the south.

I think that our marriage, with Europe, up to now, has been good for the south. Hopefully that will remain the case..

You think partition has been positive for the South? How have you come to that conclusion.

Junkyard Tom

jh79 wrote: »

It is referred to as an Island with two parts obviously, otherwise it would not be partitioned!

1. It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland,

The 'Irish nation' disregards current UK jurisdiction in Ireland. As far as the GFA is concerned the all-Ireland Irish nation seeks to end British jurisdiction, Unionists and those with a pro-partition stance need to reconcile themselves with that.

Those who oppose unification in the south need to come up with a vision for a permanently divided nation which will be aligning themselves with Unionists - it would be quite hilarious to see the utter collection off oddballs and misfits that would emerge from the undergrowth.

BonnieSituation

Sinzo wrote: »

Partition may have been a disaster for NI and the UK but not necessarily for the south.

I think that our marriage, with Europe, up to now, has been good for the south. Hopefully that will remain the case..

You think partition has been positive for the South? How have you come to that conclusion?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

One Colombian one equador. You are completely entitled to your opinion. I am just sharing theirs with you.
It’s funny how you get defensive when people express admiration for the uk. Haha.
I could have said that about any other country in the world and you would not have felt the need to rush to disagree. I reckon

Not getting defensive.

I just think it would take a blue fit for me to decide to move to Britain than Canada.

You brought up two countries. I gave an educated comparative opinion on them.

I mean, as for someone who doesn't live in Britain you're getting a wee bit defensive.

BonnieSituation

Yeah_Right wrote: »

It seems to me that SF supporters are the ones that go on about a UI the most. And they seem to believe that it should happen at any price. They also usually have no idea how to fund it and what actual tangible benefits it would provide Ireland. If anyone questions a UI or has doubts about it, it is SF supporters that call them West Brits or anti-democratic.

Republican party in talking about republican priority shocker.

I think we crossed swords initially when you landed in with the "how much will it cost" straw man. I think my response was a glib "a million billion euro a day" or something along those lines.

Maybe you can answer the question I have asked a few times on these threads and no UI supporter has answered; how much are you personally willing to pay for a UI? By that I mean in the form of a tax increase on pay and/or goods.

No one can answer your bullshít question. You see, I have no personal control over how my taxes get spread around society. I don't think you do either.

Personalising the financing makes no sense. It's not how it will be paid for. I said this before and gave a thorough response and you ran away again for a few weeks.

Reunification will cost what it costs. We will be backed to the hilt by the EU to make it successful. The cost of it will be a blip in the national debt over a 50-100 years. It really isn't that difficult to accept that unless you plainly see societal improvement as a zero-sum transactional game with a cost for everything and a value for nothing.

BonnieSituation

Sinzo wrote: »

Because my opinion is that it will only cause a whole lot of trouble for the south and the north itself.

Prior to Brexit, many individuals in the nationalist community themselves were more at home in the north along with their unionist compatriots.


To carry on your analogy... I dont want a messy divorce..

The arrogance is breathtaking.

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Ireland has given away/lost it's culture that is not the Brits fault in the last 100 years. I think you will find that when you look deep down. Republicanism is nothing more than a pretense at being overtly Irish. A compensation for a lack of real Irish culture or loss of same - a compensation of sorts. It is farcical and a bit pathetic in my opinion.
Unionists are just as much part of the island of Ireland as Republicans are.

Plus taking away the politics these days. Both Unionists have very little that is not in common - language - English, Pub Culture, Rugby, Soccer and so on.

Who said they weren't?

The only people who "other" unionists are themselves. No one else does.

You just can't help talking to that sort of belligerence. Thankfully we're moving on without them.

BonnieSituation

Sinzo wrote: »

TBH you're boring me. I have no interest in Sinn Fein. I'm sick of hearing about the troubles.

50 years and we are still talking back and forth.

Your question has an obvious answer so if you can't work it out I can't help you.

YAWN. Sorry to trouble your wee head. It's a wonder you keep coming onto this thread if it doesn't interest you.

I have no interest in reuniting the island.

It is a recipe for hardship for the south.

But some of us do.

There are much more important things happening in the world.

That's incredibly subjective. I'd say you've never had the British Army and RUC tear your car asunder just because you were heading to a Tyrone match in Dublin. I'd imagine for some people that that sort of harassment, and removing all chance of it happening again from their lives is very important.

Are u from the north yourself ?? I suspect you might be because if you were from the south u most likely wouldn't have any interest unless of course you are one of those die hard bores that constantly repeats nationalist epithets glorifying a United Ireland.

Life is too short.

The level of arrogance and ignorance in one breath. I'm sure you're not long for this thread so after this pronouncement.

BonnieSituation

Sinzo wrote: »

There is a distinction to be made between this thread and you. YOU are the bore I am referring too and your insistence on going on about Sinn Fein.....

The obvious answer is not obvious to you apparently so I wont bother spelling it out to you...

I dont need you to state the obvious. We all have a vote. It's a democracy after all.

I didn't get it wrong. There were two options. You are either from the north or the south. I guessed that you might be from the north. That was a 50 50 guess.

So you must be one of those bores that drones on and on about tiocfaidh ar la...


Other more important things going on in the world:

Brexit
Threat to the euro currency
Political unrest in America
People starving in Venezuela
People starving in Yemen and Sudan
People trafficking to Europe
The uncertainty around a possible second Covid outbreak
Putin recently paving the way for what could effectively be a dictatorship in Russia.. probably is already
Nuclear weapons in Korea and Iran
Fukushima radiation emissions
World economy on the ropes
Fracking
5.5 billion people on the planet who live on less than 2 dollars a day

Do you want me to go on??

I dare say that my political opinion rivals yours on any day of the week..

And I couldn't give a fiddlers elbow what way you voted in the last election...

Grand, and all of those issues will be solved by forgetting about a United Ireland? That's how this works right?