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How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

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    #2192
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    I am not comparing Irish and British people by using sports events. Britain has a terrible football hooligan problem. It got banned from Europe for years and it’s national team has to be put on an island at a World Cup. There are countless other examples of trouble.

    Irish people do not have that reputation for sporting events. Gaa does not have an issue with spectators causing trouble . To say otherwise is a fabrication.


    Yes, we're completely different to everyone else. Most of the agro is on the pitch!


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    #2193
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    I am not comparing Irish and British people by using sports events. Britain has a terrible football hooligan problem. It got banned from Europe for years and it’s national team has to be put on an island at a World Cup. There are countless other examples of trouble.

    Irish people do not have that reputation for sporting events. Gaa does not have an issue with spectators causing trouble . To say otherwise is a fabrication.

    You are aware whose fans got British football banned from European competition aren't you?


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    #2194
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    The Secretary of State can call a border poll whenever he/she wants.

    Yes and the Raymond McCourt case shows that legally he/she can use any combination of indicators (Opinion polls, political considerations etc) to decide and does not have to justify it.

    He better move quick before GormDubh's doomsday scenario happens and 'der is none of de Irish left in us'. :)


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    #2195
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    jm08 wrote: »
    Yes, we're completely different to everyone else. Most of the agro is on the pitch!

    Yep where it should be! Great to go a gaa match and have crowds mingle without separation. If you did that in England you’d have mass murder.


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    #2196
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,835 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    I am not comparing Irish and British people by using sports events. Britain has a terrible football hooligan problem. It got banned from Europe for years and it’s national team has to be put on an island at a World Cup. There are countless other examples of trouble.

    Irish people do not have that reputation for sporting events. Gaa does not have an issue with spectators causing trouble . To say otherwise is a fabrication.

    Saying there is no trouble at Irish sporting events is being willfully blind, you have already being given examples of Shamrock Rovers and Bohs firms. Even given the really small numbers of crowds there.

    Also there has been many altercation at GAA games in the past.

    https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/gaa/dublin-kerry-gaa-fans-brawl-20067841

    Granted not planned like the soccer crowd but trouble none the less.

    For someone to have to try and claim this as a cultural difference making the Irish different to the Brits does not say much. As there is little difference between the two nations as you well know. Being a fan of Rugby (an English invention) you know this. As did Eamon De Valera who liked rugby from his Blackrock college days. But Dev eventually sought compromise and knew there was more similarities than difference between Ireland and Britain.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #2197
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,835 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    Yep where it should be! Great to go a gaa match and have crowds mingle without separation. If you did that in England you’d have mass murder.

    In LOI games the crowds are not permitted to mingle no matter how small. It is a class issue rather than a cultural one.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #2198
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    You are aware whose fans got British football banned from European competition aren't you?

    Does it matter? It wasn’t just one match either that caused the ban but a combination of events Involving different teams over years. Trouble was rampant in the English game in particular. If it was just liverpool why not just ban Liverpool? But no all English clubs were banned.

    Anyway this has little to do with reunification.


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    #2199
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    In LOI games the crowds are not permitted to mingle no matter how small. It is a class issue rather than a cultural one.

    That’s more to do groups congregating together though I have sat with other supporters many times and never an issue. No steward moved me either.


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    #2200
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    Does it matter? It wasn’t just one match either that caused the ban but a combination of events Involving different teams over years. Trouble was rampant in the English game in particular. If it was just liverpool why not just ban Liverpool? But no all English clubs were banned.

    Anyway this has little to do with reunification.

    It matters if you're an Everton fan :)


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    #2201
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    It matters if you're an Everton fan :)

    Yes I have seen the steau Bucharest banner in the kop. Without derailing the thread too much the Howard way documentary is a good one.


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    #2202
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    Saying there is no trouble at Irish sporting events is being willfully blind, you have already being given examples of Shamrock Rovers and Bohs firms. Even given the really small numbers of crowds there.

    Also there has been many altercation at GAA games in the past.

    https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/gaa/dublin-kerry-gaa-fans-brawl-20067841

    Granted not planned like the soccer crowd but trouble none the less.

    For someone to have to try and claim this as a cultural difference making the Irish different to the Brits does not say much. As there is little difference between the two nations as you well know. Being a fan of Rugby (an English invention) you know this. As did Eamon De Valera who liked rugby from his Blackrock college days. But Dev eventually sought compromise and knew there was more similarities than difference between Ireland and Britain.

    Where people gather in large crowds you are going to have some trouble at some stage. . It’s not endemic in the game here unlike England. Welsh derby is supposed to be very bad too.

    Any trouble at gaa is off the cuff. It’s not organised or there are no groups who specifically look for trouble.


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    #2203
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,835 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    That’s more to do groups congregating together though I have sat with other supporters many times and never an issue. No steward moved me either.

    Come on there is a certain element that go to LOI games looking for trouble. Same as in Britain the main reason there is less trouble at GAA games is because it is a bit more middle class these days in comparison to soccer.

    Plus in the GAA many see themselves as 'Gaels' by and large most Gaels would not attack each other.

    In Britain they have the same issue with thier working class who follow darts and soccer etc. Not the crowd who follow rugby. I would see it more as a similarity rather than a difference. Same societal issues in Britain as in the ROI as the lifestyle and cultures across all demographics are much the same.

    Whether you like it or not, people will struggle to pinpoint the differences between Irishness and Britishness away from politics.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #2204
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    It is just an example, there are more recent ones as well trouble on the hill between Kerry and Dublin supporters 2019. Mix drink/drugs and macho young fellas it can happen anytime. I saw a Dublin fella going around randomly stabbing people after one game off his head on drugs.
    Irish people are a lot like the Brits in more ways than one.


    When supporters are being segregated and terraces removed, I think you will be able to claim that sporting occasions in Ireland are like in England/Scotland.


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    #2205
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    It does when you factor in the small crowds at the games also it debunks the myth that Irish supporters are different to British ones.
    It is all class based if you pick the LCM from the working class more likely to be trouble makers. Same thing the world over. Plus as I have already said it is these working class in the ROI who would be mouthing about border polls and the like. Fits in with the macho image.


    So small numbers numbers then?


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    #2206
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,835 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    jm08 wrote: »
    When supporters are being segregated and terraces removed, I think you will be able to claim that sporting occasions in Ireland are like in England/Scotland.

    But in Ireland the working class mostly go over to Britain to do thier soccer supporting. So in reality it is already happening.

    Plus when I was in tallaght stadium last the Rovers supporters were not allowed in the opposing fans end. Even though the crowd was very small and there was lots of space. If football hooliganism is your main definition of difference Irishness and Britishness (aside from politics). The country is really fecked culturally.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #2207
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    Come on there is a certain element that go to LOI games looking for trouble. Same as in Britain the main reason there is less trouble at GAA games is because it is a bit more middle class these days in comparison to soccer.

    Plus in the GAA many see themselves as 'Gaels' by and large most Gaels would not attack each other.

    In Britain they have the same issue with thier working class who follow darts and soccer etc. Not the crowd who follow rugby. I would see it more as a similarity rather than a difference. Same societal issues in Britain as in the ROI as the lifestyle and cultures across all demographics are much the same.

    Whether you like it or not, people will struggle to pinpoint the differences between Irishness and Britishness away from politics.

    A lot of people follow gaa and loi. Football trouble exists outside Britain too such as Eastern Europe. Are they brits too in disguise?

    Gaa which is unique to Ireland has a great tradition where crowds can gather from all walks of life and except for very very isolated incidents there is virtually no trouble off the pitch. Gaa is not a middle class sport by any stretch of the imagination.


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    #2208
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    I own property in Ireland, have lived, worked and paid taxes in Ireland for over a decade, I married an Irish girl and voted in general elections yet I'm not committed to Ireland in your eyes. I reckon that even if I took out Irish citizenship, you would still tell me to stay out of it as I wouldn't understand the issues like a "real" Irishman.


    Your primary concern is financial which you have articulated. I'm not telling you to stay out of anything. You, yourself are opting out of it because you don't have a vote in Irish referenda because you are not an Irish citizen even though you are eligible to be. You have one issue which is financial.


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    #2209
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,835 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    jm08 wrote: »
    So small numbers numbers then?

    I wouldn't know the exact numbers but you only have to look at the areas SF TD's get thier votes from in Dublin and it is very telling.
    Example A. O'Snodaigh Clondalkin and Denise Mitchell Darndale and so on.

    The working class Dub voter those looking for 'batter fah-sil-ih-tees'. Such voters are crucial to be buttered up by SF so they can win the border poll and get a UI. Oh ah up the RA by the back door. Some may have voted SF because they like the macho image or mystic nothing else to it though.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #2210
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 6,020 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    jm08 wrote: »
    Your primary concern is financial which you have articulated. I'm not telling you to stay out of anything. You, yourself are opting out of it because you don't have a vote in Irish referenda because you are not an Irish citizen even though you are eligible to be. You have one issue which is financial.

    Actually the issue I have is the happiness and wellbeing of my family and friends. Finances is part of that. I see nothing about a UI that will improve their happiness and wellbeing. Only things that will affect it negatively.

    Don't worry, I'll make sure that I have my Irish passport by the time a referendum happens. Will that make my opinion valid in your eyes? Somehow I doubt it.


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    #2211
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,835 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    Gaa is not a middle class sport by any stretch of the imagination.

    It is in Dublin these days anyway that is for sure barring a few exceptions like Ballymun the successful clubs are middle 'class super clubs'.
    It is part of the reason there is less trouble at GAA games than soccer less thicks at it.

    https://www.buzz.ie/gaa/long-read-dublin-gaa-danger-leaving-working-class-behind-243759

    Plus as long as the working class is outnumbered in the ROI. Irish people as a whole are less likely to be duped by populist rhetoric from SF as they are more educated. So it makes a UI less likely imo.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #2212
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,835 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    jm08 wrote: »
    Your primary concern is financial which you have articulated. I'm not telling you to stay out of anything. You, yourself are opting out of it because you don't have a vote in Irish referenda because you are not an Irish citizen even though you are eligible to be. You have one issue which is financial.

    Well I have a vote in any referenda.
    Financial is one of my reasons I would vote NO in a border poll. As well as fear of any increased in tensions and bringing trouble to the ROI. Talbot Street could be bombed again for example. All for the sake of voting on the basis of an old Republican ideology of birthright.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #2213
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    I wouldn't know the exact numbers but you only have to look at the areas SF TD's get thier votes from in Dublin and it is very telling.
    Example A. O'Snodaigh Clondalkin and Denise Mitchell Darndale and so on.

    The working class Dub voter those looking for 'batter fah-sil-ih-tees'. Such voters are crucial to be buttered up by SF so they can win the border poll and get a UI. Oh ah up the RA by the back door. Some may have voted SF because they like the macho image or mystic nothing else to it though.


    I think if you look at Sinn Fein votes in the last General Election you will see that Sinn Fein did well in plenty of rural constitutencies and in a lot of instances got the highest/second highest poll in first count. For example in primarily a rural constituency and big GAA county, Tipperary - 1st Count - 1: Michael Lowry Ind. 2. Martin Browne SF, 3. Mattie McGrath, Ind. 4. Jackie Cahill FF, 5 Alan Kelly Lab.


    Something similar in Limerick and Clare and Kathleen Function SF, topped the poll in Carlow-Kilkenny. Its not just soccer followers who vote for SF!


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    #2214
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    Actually the issue I have is the happiness and wellbeing of my family and friends. Finances is part of that. I see nothing about a UI that will improve their happiness and wellbeing. Only things that will affect it negatively.

    Don't worry, I'll make sure that I have my Irish passport by the time a referendum happens. Will that make my opinion valid in your eyes? Somehow I doubt it.


    Well, hopefully by then you realise that you should also be concerned with the well-being of your fellow Irish citizens (and that includes those who live north of the border as well).


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    #2215
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    In theory yes. But if the poll is lost what will that do for SF etc another 7 year wait at least. Plus it is on the say so of the Sec of State in the GFA whether to call it. A poll will not be called if it is a tight call.

    No, in actuality yes.

    I don't care what SF do in the intervening period, though I'd assume they'll agitate further given a UI is their raison d'être.

    As regards the rest, I think a simple "okay" will suffice.


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    #2216
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 6,020 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    jm08 wrote: »
    Well, hopefully by then you realise that you should also be concerned with the well-being of your fellow Irish citizens (and that includes those who live north of the border as well).

    Are those Irish citizens who choose to live in Northern Ireland concerned about the happiness and wellbeing of their fellow citizens in the Republic? Or do they think "****'em, I want a united Ireland because feelings".


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    #2217
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    We'll that was a marathon session of nonsense to wade through. Jesus.


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    #2218
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 6,020 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    We'll that was a marathon session of nonsense to wade through. Jesus.

    Were you at Sinn Fein meeting?

    :D


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    #2219
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Yeah_Right wrote: »


    Were you at Sinn Fein meeting?

    :D

    Yeah. We were having a regatta. Francie's boat is great craic.


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    #2220
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    Are those Irish citizens who choose to live in Northern Ireland concerned about the happiness and wellbeing of their fellow citizens in the Republic? Or do they think "****'em, I want a united Ireland because feelings".


    What a fairly clueless comment to make bearing in mind the history of Northern Ireland and what has happened to the people from there over the last 100 years. That is their home and have every right to aspire to unite with the rest of the island. Would it be a legitimate reason in your eyes if they chose to be part of a UI because they might be better off economically?


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    #2221
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    maccored wrote: »
    you really, really don't understand the idea of everyone having their say.

    why is that? you re saying theres no point in discussion - thats a bit rich surely?

    How can there never be a time where a discussion about a UI cant take place? Who would have the right to stop other people discussing it?

    Going by your replies so far - I assume you think you would have the right to stop a discussion between everyone on the island? Isn't that a bit egotistical or is it because you think you can hold us all to ransom?

    unbelievable attitude to have in this day and age.

    It’s your demand that we should discuss something we don’t want. It would be like a turkey convention to discuss improving cranberry sauce.
    You guys who want to, just away about it.


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