How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

downcow

maccored wrote: »

you really, really don't understand the idea of everyone having their say.

why is that? you re saying theres no point in discussion - thats a bit rich surely?

How can there never be a time where a discussion about a UI cant take place? Who would have the right to stop other people discussing it?

Going by your replies so far - I assume you think you would have the right to stop a discussion between everyone on the island? Isn't that a bit egotistical or is it because you think you can hold us all to ransom?

unbelievable attitude to have in this day and age.

It’s your demand that we should discuss something we don’t want. It would be like a turkey convention to discuss improving cranberry sauce.
You guys who want to, just away about it.

jm08

Someone else thinks as I do - just get rid of all monuments and flags in NI. Some monument to the UDA, Red Commando and LVF in the Kilcooley Estate, and part funded by the tax payer.



https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/commission-set-wake-flag-protests-must-rid-us-all-loyalist-and-republican-terror-monuments-says-victims-group-ivu-2906680


So Downcow, what do you think? Do you agree with this man from Innocent Victims United?

FrancieBrady

What have they done downow? What have they done! The DUP must be glad there is something to distract attention from what is happeneing solely because of their f*** up. You would nearly think the current outrage was manufactured just to do that!

https://twitter.com/murchadhfinn/status/1280800923024056320

Yeah_Right

jm08 wrote: »

What a fairly clueless comment to make bearing in mind the history of Northern Ireland and what has happened to the people from there over the last 100 years. That is their home and have every right to aspire to unite with the rest of the island. Would it be a legitimate reason in your eyes if they chose to be part of a UI because they might be better off economically?

Why is it a clueless comment? Care to expand on that?

If people living in NI felt that unifying with Ireland would be better for them financially then yes, I can understand why they would vote for it. But if it just for the feelings and it actually makes life/the economy worse for everyone then no, I don't understand why they would vote for it.

If unification is beneficial to both NI and the Republic (economically and socially) then I would support it. At the moment I think that unification would benefit a portion of residents in NI and the Republicin how they feel but would be detrimental to the majority people in both countries economically and socially.

maccored

downcow wrote: »

It’s your demand that we should discuss something we don’t want. It would be like a turkey convention to discuss improving cranberry sauce.
You guys who want to, just away about it.

'we'? as I say, you dont seem to be a fan of inclusion. Some people want a UI, some people dont, some people dont know. those who dont cant tell everyone else to shut up about it. I do realise thats what Unionism expects alright and you may have got away with it for years in the north - but nowadays people prefer talking and discussion - not dictatorships.

jm08

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Why is it a clueless comment? Care to expand on that?

If people living in NI felt that unifying with Ireland would be better for them financially then yes, I can understand why they would vote for it. But if it just for the feelings and it actually makes life/the economy worse for everyone then no, I don't understand why they would vote for it.

If unification is beneficial to both NI and the Republic (economically and socially) then I would support it. At the moment I think that unification would benefit a portion of residents in NI and the Republicin how they feel but would be detrimental to the majority people in both countries economically and socially.

Its clueless because the people in NI have just come through a most difficult phase of their history, where it took a lot of work and perseverence to achieve the GFA (failures were Sunningdale & Anglo Irish Agreement). The GFA gave nationalists hope for a UI. You have no right to casually dismiss that promise of hope of a UI, and replace it with economic self interest that is not what was voted for in the GFA referendum in the ROI.

You then go on to suggest that if they don't like it they can leave! I wonder would you say the same to Downcow that if he does not like it he can leave (Just for the record, I would never say that to him. NI is his place as well).

jh79

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/taoiseach-criticises-sinn-f%C3%A9in-s-over-focus-on-border-poll-1.4298679?mode=amp

"Ms McDonald was critical that the new “Shared Island” unit which has been set up in the Department of the Taoiseach will not be tasked with promoting constitutional change."

Francie, don't think your wish for a border poll within 2 years of the Shared Island Unit starting is gonna happen.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/taoiseach-criticises-sinn-f%C3%A9in-s-over-focus-on-border-poll-1.4298679?mode=amp

"Ms McDonald was critical that the new “Shared Island” unit which has been set up in the Department of the Taoiseach will not be tasked with promoting constitutional change."

Francie, don't think your wish for a border poll within 2 years of the Shared Island Unit starting is gonna happen.

Right on cue, this feeds into what I was saying earlier. Just as Westminster will not want to be seen as capitulating to a SF project demand this is Michael's play to make a UI a FF project. Simple as that.

If he succeeds, fair play, doesn't bother me who leads the project.

Brendan Bendar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Right on cue, this feeds into what I was saying earlier. Just as Westminster will not want to be seen as capitulating to a SF project demand this is Michael's play to make a UI a FF project. Simple as that.

If he succeeds, fair play, doesn't bother me who leads the project.

Dream on dude, much more pressing issues to sort out, a chara.

It’s 2020 right now.

BonnieSituation

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Dream on dude, much more pressing issues to sort out, a chara.

It’s 2020 right now.

So no panic for you Partitionists then. Not to worry.

You guys get fierce tetchy. I mean if anyone is worrying...

FrancieBrady

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Dream on dude, much more pressing issues to sort out, a chara.

It’s 2020 right now.

Fingers in ears there Brendan. It's all getting a bit too real for you is it?

Brendan Bendar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fingers in ears there Brendan. It's all getting a bit too real for you is it?

Other issues politically of much greater portent than absorbing a bunch of malcontents, F.

BonnieSituation

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Other issues politically of much greater portent than absorbing a bunch of malcontents, F.

So important that you keep popping your wee head in here. Seems like you think a UI is important?

FrancieBrady

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Other issues politically of much greater portent than absorbing a bunch of malcontents, F.

If Brexit goes tits up (it already has) then it will become the defining issue of the decade if not decade's'.

An unstable, unsecure NI could bring us down with it. We will have no choice but to address this.
If Scotland breaks up the UK, then we also have an issue.

Buckle in Brendy, you may have to take a side.

Yeah_Right

jm08 wrote: »

Its clueless because the people in NI have just come through a most difficult phase of their history, where it took a lot of work and perseverence to achieve the GFA (failures were Sunningdale & Anglo Irish Agreement). The GFA gave nationalists hope for a UI. You have no right to casually dismiss that promise of hope of a UI, and replace it with economic self interest that is not what was voted for in the GFA referendum in the ROI.

You then go on to suggest that if they don't like it they can leave! I wonder would you say the same to Downcow that if he does not like it he can leave (Just for the record, I would never say that to him. NI is his place as well).

Just to clarify, by "a most difficult phase" are you referring to the Troubles? If yes, I'd point that it was members of their own communities that were responsible for that. Tough no doubt you just blame the Brits.

Why should I care what nationalists hope for? What makes them so special? Do they give a crap what other people hope for? I didn't rule out a UI, I said I don't think there is any benefit in it for the Republic. And you can't give a benefit other than the hopes and dreams of nationalists.

I didn't tell anyone to leave. I said they choose to live there. Same as I choose to live in Ireland. Wherever you choose to live, you should try to make that society/community a better place. Be a productive member and take responsibility for your actions and choices. Don't sit there and expect people in another society/country to make sacrifices because you have hopes and dreams.

I believe NI should sort their **** out first before they think about joining Ireland. And I'd prefer it if they didn't blow people up while they did it.

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I believe NI should sort their **** out first before they think about joining Ireland. And I'd prefer it if they didn't blow people up while they did it.

Get your money back from whatever course you did Irish History on.

If you qualified thinking the British do not have the majority of the blame for what happened here, you've been scammed.

Also if you think the 'North can sort it's **** out' without sorting out the nonsense that was partition then you must have been mitching class altogether.

The north was always going to fail, and always will fail. The British have given up on it, that's why we have the limbo of the GFA.

The GFA is not going to stay in limbo forever either. So all the 'badly educated' and the partitionists better get ready to confront some of their demons.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Someone else thinks as I do - just get rid of all monuments and flags in NI. Some monument to the UDA, Red Commando and LVF in the Kilcooley Estate, and part funded by the tax payer.



https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/commission-set-wake-flag-protests-must-rid-us-all-loyalist-and-republican-terror-monuments-says-victims-group-ivu-2906680


So Downcow, what do you think? Do you agree with this man from Innocent Victims United?

Yes, absolutely agree with Kenny Donaldson. A sound guy

downcow

maccored wrote: »

'we'? as I say, you dont seem to be a fan of inclusion. Some people want a UI, some people dont, some people dont know. those who dont cant tell everyone else to shut up about it. I do realise thats what Unionism expects alright and you may have got away with it for years in the north - but nowadays people prefer talking and discussion - not dictatorships.

I am not telling anyone to shut up about it. Talk away till your heart's content

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If Brexit goes tits up (it already has) then it will become the defining issue of the decade if not decade's'.

An unstable, unsecure NI could bring us down with it. We will have no choice but to address this.
If Scotland breaks up the UK, then we also have an issue.

Buckle in Brendy, you may have to take a side.

Scotland are free to leave the UK, but they cannot break it up. I don't believe Scotland will leave, but Wales certainly shows no notion of leaving that neither does Northern Ireland or England

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

Scotland are free to leave the UK, but they cannot break it up. I don't believe Scotland will leave, but Wales certainly shows no notion of leaving that neither does Northern Ireland or England

So if Scotland parliament vote in the morning to have a vote you are ok with that? It’s up to Boris and his Tory cronies. Very democratic

Let’s face it the main union in the U.K. is England and Scotland. The others are bit players.

Randy Archer

jm08 wrote: »

Its clueless because the people in NI have just come through a most difficult phase of their history, where it took a lot of work and perseverence to achieve the GFA (failures were Sunningdale & Anglo Irish Agreement). The GFA gave nationalists hope for a UI. You have no right to casually dismiss that promise of hope of a UI, and replace it with economic self interest that is not what was voted for in the GFA referendum in the ROI.

You then go on to suggest that if they don't like it they can leave! I wonder would you say the same to Downcow that if he does not like it he can leave (Just for the record, I would never say that to him. NI is his place as well).

Who the hell do you think you are ? Shinners , the majority of whom offer nothing to the economy but take take take and whine . Tax payers , proper tax payers most certainly do have a right and a say , far more than the lunatic Shinners who base all arguments on warm fuzzy feelings Rather than reality

Wake up ! Shinners have been excellent with spinning what GFA really means . GFA really meant the SURRENDER by Republicans of armed force resistance and the recognition of the Status Quo in the North . They were successful in spinning failure into a success story , whereas DUP and Unionists spun what was a success for them into a failure and end of their ways

Don’t lie , you Shinners have always been about breeding them out as the way to achieve UI

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Scotland are free to leave the UK, but they cannot break it up. I don't believe Scotland will leave, but Wales certainly shows no notion of leaving that neither does Northern Ireland or England

I suspect Boris, the man who was too smart for Unionists' end game is an independent England.
He can't be seen to advocate for thst, so he makes a UK untenable.

He is flying at it. January brings it one step closer.

He made idiots of unionists, he pushed you aside as if you werent there. Learn the lesson, find somewhere you will have a say.

Randy Archer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Get your money back from whatever course you did Irish History on.

If you qualified thinking the British do not have the majority of the blame for what happened here, you've been scammed.

Also if you think the 'North can sort it's **** out' without sorting out the nonsense that was partition then you must have been mitching class altogether.

The north was always going to fail, and always will fail. The British have given up on it, that's why we have the limbo of the GFA.

The GFA is not going to stay in limbo forever either. So all the 'badly educated' and the partitionists better get ready to confront some of their demons.

It never ceases to amuse me how mushroom pickers , who are utterly devoid of any qualification or profession or actual expertise on the economic and legal niceties , and who clearly didn’t stay long in school , go waffling . You have absolutely nothing to back up your fantasy . It’s you whose in for a rude awakening along with yer Nordie barstoolers

The majority of the South don’t share yer notions about the north and this will be exposed further during recession . Shinners recent success was nothing but a fluke , pure populist stuff

Ye seriously over egg the impact and meaning of GFA . Even the EU itself don’t Share the duel citizenship notions when it comes to their free movement rules (recent case involving a girl born in NI and never left NI being unable to use EU law to keep non eu hubby in NI on basis of claiming to be an Irish citizen , British courts were able to rely on EU court case on a very similar case that went before them )

GFA means status quo.Just a half baked promise that some day over the rainbow ,if nationalist can convince unionists that UI is a good idea of they can have a vote , a vote that’s unlikely to be happening for a few decades . Unionists have been allowed to disregard the language act and disregard the All island council . Sure, the South as a bit of a say now a days, but deep down unless it gets positive press , Southern TDs couldn’t be bothered about the north . It’s wasn’t long ago that Irish business and Irish TDs were whinging about council estate urchins going to Strabane and Newty for cheap tins of beer

Stormont is still dominated by Unionists , they are still the majority . Shinners has their chance during the Arlene Foster scandal and still couldn’t win more seats

You go on about NI being an inevitable fail, of course it would be when the sole goal of the IRA and SF was to see the destruction of the community and ensure division between the two religions . All they do is whataboutery “best UDA did this “

RobMc59

Randy Archer wrote: »

It never ceases to amuse me how mushroom pickers , who are utterly devoid of any qualification or profession or actual expertise on the economic and legal niceties , and who clearly didn’t stay long in school , go waffling . You have absolutely nothing to back up your fantasy . It’s you whose in for a rude awakening along with yer Nordie barstoolers

The majority of the South don’t share yer notions about the north and this will be exposed further during recession . Shinners recent success was nothing but a fluke , pure populist stuff

Ye seriously over egg the impact and meaning of GFA . Even the EU itself don’t Share the duel citizenship notions when it comes to their free movement rules (recent case involving a girl born in NI and never left NI being unable to use EU law to keep non eu hubby in NI on basis of claiming to be an Irish citizen , British courts were able to rely on EU court case on a very similar case that went before them )

GFA means status quo.Just a half baked promise that some day over the rainbow of nationalist can convince unionists that UI is a good idea of hey can have a vote , a vote that’s unlikely to be happening for a few decades . Unionists have been allowed to disregard the language act and disregard the All island council . Sure, the South as a bit of a say now a days, but deep down unless it gets positive press , Southern TDs couldn’t be bothered about the north . It’s wasn’t long ago that Irish business and Irish TDs were whinging about council estate urchins going to Strabane and Newty for cheap tins of beer

Stormont is still dominated by Unionists , they are still the majority . Shinners has their chance during the Arlene Foster scandal and still couldn’t win more seats

I thought the NI woman won her case in the UK courts?

jh79

RobMc59 wrote: »

I thought the NI woman won her case in the UK courts?

They made an exception in her case but the law hasn't changed.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

They made an exception in her case but the law hasn't changed.

No they didn't make an exception for her alone. The ruling says ALL those born in the north have EU citizenship under the EU Settlement Scheme when it comes to immigration/residency of a spouse. The British changed their imigration law for all born in NI not JUST for De Sousa.
A cop out and not the end of that I would imagine.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No they didn't make an exception for her alone. The ruling says ALL those born in the north have EU citizenship under the EU Settlement Scheme when it comes to immigration/residency of a spouse. The British changed their imigration law for all born in NI not JUST for De Sousa.
A cop out and not the end of that I would imagine.

My mistake but the scheme is time limited so the situation could arise again for others.

jm08

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Just to clarify, by "a most difficult phase" are you referring to the Troubles? If yes, I'd point that it was members of their own communities that were responsible for that. Tough no doubt you just blame the Brits.

No, I'm referring back to partition and the founding of the Sectarian State of Northern Ireland where catholics were treated like second class citizens (which they tolerated for 50 years before the State went back to direct British rule).

Why should I care what nationalists hope for? What makes them so special? Do they give a crap what other people hope for? I didn't rule out a UI, I said I don't think there is any benefit in it for the Republic. And you can't give a benefit other than the hopes and dreams of nationalists.

An Irish citizen would be concerned for the well being of their fellow citizens. Promises have been made and we should not renege on them.

I didn't tell anyone to leave. I said they choose to live there. Same as I choose to live in Ireland. Wherever you choose to live, you should try to make that society/community a better place. Be a productive member and take responsibility for your actions and choices. Don't sit there and expect people in another society/country to make sacrifices because you have hopes and dreams.

They didn't actually choose to live there. Just like you didn't choose to live in NZ. You were born there. You choose to leave.


I believe NI should sort their **** out first before they think about joining Ireland. And I'd prefer it if they didn't blow people up while they did it.[/QUOTE]

Randy Archer

RobMc59 wrote: »

I thought the NI woman won her case in the UK courts?

She won in at the immigration tribunal but it was appealed to the Superior court and she lost late last year

In fairness to the said court, EU caselaw didn’t support her - but it was a worthwhile challenge because the said EU case had zero regard for GFA as it concerned a Brit in mainland Britain as her claiming to be Irish (the eu case was called McCarthy v Secretary of State ...2010ish )

Anyone who followed the 2010 case saw this as a future problem if a case from Northern Ireland cropped up . Surprised it took so long

The Brits always saw everyone in the North as British and GFA didn’t nothing to stop them from keeping that position . We Irish seriously over sold GFA and what it really means , hence why a new agreement would be needed with Brexit around the corner if NI doesn’t get special status in the EU

Randy Archer

jh79 wrote: »

They made an exception in her case but the law hasn't changed.

No they didn’t ! The immigration tribunal found in her favour but that case was appealed and she LOST , case was delivered around sometime between October 2019 - January 2020

There were no exceptions . The Tribunal went way against precedent

It remains to be seen if she would take the case to Europe , who already have delivered a decision that would harm her chances , but it’s doubtful that they have the funds for it