How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Thanks fion I appreciate your attempt to answer the question.
You do throw the word country in. Is that a suggestion that communities need to be UN recognised countries to be entitled to SD. Where does that leave Basqe etc.
I don’t have a clear answer either. But some in here think that if an area is surrounded by a large water mass then that is the area and only area is allowed SD

You're over analysing my use of the word country there, Downcow....you're particularly stretching it to specify, 'UN recognised countries'.

I'll clarify that I am not suggesting that a community needs to be a country (UN recognised or otherwise) to be entitled to self determination. I was really just using country as shorthand, a bit cart-before-the-horse on my part, and perhaps I should've taken the time to make it clearer.

The Basque question is an interesting one. Naturally I would lean towards suggesting the Basque people should have that right, but having never lived in the region, I'd be reluctant to commit too heavily one way or another, as I don't have the direct cultural exposure to appreciate the intricacies of either side of that argument.

You say that some think that being surrounded by a large body of water means that area and that area only should be entitled to self determination.....I think you're being facetious there.

The GFA specifically gives a smaller part of that land mass surrounded by a body of water the right to self determination. The vast majority of criticism of the GFA on this thread hasn't come from the Republican side of things.....so can you clarify where the people who think this are?

FrancieBrady

munsterlegend wrote: »

The smart thing to do would be allow no one in from Scotland England and Wales as it’s clear particularly in England the virus is not being controlled. Of course it also affects us as Dublin is the main airport on the island and Belfast airport Set up is a disaster by all accounts,

The numbers in the south and north are very similar so not exactly where you are getting your data from. The R figure is subject to change and were bound to increase after easing restrictions.

Looking like the two countries that got the whole thing so wrong are not going to make our 'green' list.

Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney has said that the US will definitely not be on the green list of countries to which it is deemed safe to travel while the UK is unlikely to be on the list.

The list is being compiled on the basis of epidemiological data, he told Newstalk’s Pat Kenny show.

“Just to explain how we're going to calculate the threshold which will determine whether a country is on the green list or not. This is not on the basis of politics, it's on the basis of epidemiological data and numbers so that we can compare Ireland with other countries and then we can put countries on a green list that we regard as representing no higher risk than Ireland represents.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40017380.html

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Imagine it took a pandemic to achieve this simple expectation of a normal society...that people would go about their business without causing civil unrest and strife.

Maybe the Orange brethren will finally realise the world doesn't end if you don't get to march.

Next year maybe Unionist and Loyalist leaders will tackle the ongoing problems relating to 11th night bonfires.

You just can’t hide your hatred for my culture.
Would you apply the same desire to cancelled st pats parades, fleadhs, etc. I guess not

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

Only in the north could you have a public holiday to show how much you hate your neighbour. People cheering and clapping around bonfires with KAT and flags and effigies.

Oh dear!
Only on republicans could refuse to even say the name of the country they were referring (unless of course you were including the behaviour of those Donegal yahoos)

The public holiday is for the 12th. I have never ever seen any of the behaviour you are talking anoint on the 12th

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You're over analysing my use of the word country there, Downcow....you're particularly stretching it to specify, 'UN recognised countries'.

I'll clarify that I am not suggesting that a community needs to be a country (UN recognised or otherwise) to be entitled to self determination. I was really just using country as shorthand, a bit cart-before-the-horse on my part, and perhaps I should've taken the time to make it clearer.

The Basque question is an interesting one. Naturally I would lean towards suggesting the Basque people should have that right, but having never lived in the region, I'd be reluctant to commit too heavily one way or another, as I don't have the direct cultural exposure to appreciate the intricacies of either side of that argument.

You say that some think that being surrounded by a large body of water means that area and that area only should be entitled to self determination.....I think you're being facetious there.

The GFA specifically gives a smaller part of that land mass surrounded by a body of water the right to self determination. The vast majority of criticism of the GFA on this thread hasn't come from the Republican side of things.....so can you clarify where the people who think this are?

I agree with most of what you are saying except I think you are being a little economical with the facts to not admit that most republicans on here believe that the whole island should self-determine based on the big bit of water around it

RobMc59

munsterlegend wrote: »

The smart thing to do would be allow no one in from Scotland England and Wales as it’s clear particularly in England the virus is not being controlled. Of course it also affects us as Dublin is the main airport on the island and Belfast airport Set up is a disaster by all accounts,

The numbers in the south and north are very similar so not exactly where you are getting your data from. The R figure is subject to change and were bound to increase after easing restrictions.

That's probably the right way although I did think Ireland aren't being particularly diplomatic about the way they are getting the message across. There are eyebrows being raised apparently in the US regarding Ireland's brusque attitude towards US travellers ,it might not be forgotten when Ireland is trying to wheedle backing from Irish americans.

gormdubhgorm

downcow wrote: »

You just can’t hide your hatred for my culture.
Would you apply the same desire to cancelled st pats parades, fleadhs, etc. I guess not

St Patrick was a Welshman a Brit. Most famous 'honorary Irishman' after St Jack. Plus a crowd of mostly protestant English born players went to visit the Pope in Rome back in 1990! Again close cultural ties between both countries is shown here.

Personally I don't have much time for all that religion guff.It is just people looking for something to cling on to. Looking for a 'badge' and safety net of sorts.

If you look at it what is the rate of regular mass going in NI or the ROI? Most don't bother in the ROI anyway. I think the lack of real interest in religion these days is just another thing both Britain and the ROI have in common.

As for the Orange marches I don't think they are a good thing. If people don't like them ignore them. However, Catholics can hardly claim the moral high ground when it comes treatment of those from another religion.
You only have to look up the ancient Order of Hibernians

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/make-way-for-the-molly-maguires-the-ancient-order-of-hibernians-and-the-irish-parliamentary-party-1902-14/

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:83jfzeTk9hkJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ancient-order-must-adapt-or-disappear-1.176810+&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie


or Ne Temere decree from the catholic church in 1907

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dekHulEiCpIJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/research-finds-protestant-obsession-with-ne-temere-1.120625+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

And of course the 'Baptism Barrier' in ROI schools which created hassle for second generation Irish kids who might not be of the Catholic faith. Only was removed in 2019!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/baptism-barrier-to-catholic-schools-to-go-next-year-1.3488198

I find anyone who crows about thier religion is always looking for trouble. It is yet another reason why I do not want all that crap brought into a UI if at all possible.
But the reality is if Catholics and Protestants were real Christians (in truest sense) they would not use thier versions of Christianity as an excuse for a row.

TLDR: Ireland is full of hypocrisy over religion (Catholics and Protestants), people who rarely practice it yet some use it as badge. Plus Nordies are particular headbangers when it comes to religion. If thier is ever a UI or Ireland rejoins the commonwealth. I hope there is a separation of church and state as Ireland is now a more secular homogeneous society.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I agree with most of what you are saying except I think you are being a little economical with the facts to not admit that most republicans on here believe that the whole island should self-determine based on the big bit of water around it

I can't think of very many Republicans on here or in my normal life who don't support the GFA, Downcow.

By the very nature of the GFA, anyone who supports it does not fall under your description. By supporting the GFA, people inherently support the right of NI to self determine, it's kind of the whole point of it.

My own view is quite simple, and I suspect the umbrella that the vast majority of Republicans would fall under. I would like to see the people of the North exercise their right to self determination to CHOOSE unification. You may be able to find one or two examples of people on here from a Republican perspective who don't fall within that general outlook, but a MAJORITY? I think not.

If you feel it is the majority view, can you point out a handful of regular posters who have stated they do not support the GFA and the right of NI to self-determine?

I'm not even going to touch the gross simplification that is stating that the reason for aspiration towards unity is solely based on the fact that we're one island, that's been done to death.

RobMc59

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

St Patrick was a Welshman a Brit. Most famous 'honorary Irishman' after St Jack. Plus a crowd of mostly protestant English born players went to visit the Pope in Rome back in 1990! Again close cultural ties between both countries is shown here.

Personally I don't have much time for all that religion guff.It is just people looking for something to cling on to. Looking for a 'badge' and safety net of sorts.

If you look at it what is the rate of regular mass going in NI or the ROI? Most don't bother in the ROI anyway. I think the lack of real interest in religion these days is just another thing both Britain and the ROI have in common.

As for the Orange marches I don't think they are a good thing. If people don't like them ignore them. However, Catholics can hardly claim the moral high ground when it comes treatment of those from another religion.
You only have to look up the ancient Order of Hibernians

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/make-way-for-the-molly-maguires-the-ancient-order-of-hibernians-and-the-irish-parliamentary-party-1902-14/

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:83jfzeTk9hkJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ancient-order-must-adapt-or-disappear-1.176810+&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie


or Ne Temere decree from the catholic church in 1907

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dekHulEiCpIJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/research-finds-protestant-obsession-with-ne-temere-1.120625+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

And of course the 'Baptism Barrier' in ROI schools which created hassle for second generation Irish kids who might not be of the Catholic faith. Only was removed in 2019!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/baptism-barrier-to-catholic-schools-to-go-next-year-1.3488198

I find anyone who crows about thier religion is always looking for trouble. It is yet another reason why I do not want all that crap brought into a UI if at all possible.
But the reality is if Catholics and Protestants were real Christians (in truest sense) they would not use thier versions of Christianity as an excuse for a row.

TLDR: Ireland is full of hypocrisy over religion (Catholics and Protestants), people who rarely practice it yet some use it as badge. Plus Nordies are particular headbangers when it comes to religion. If thier is ever a UI or Ireland rejoins the commonwealth. I hope there is a separation of church and state as Ireland is now a more secular homogeneous society.

The general consensus amongst republicans on this thread seems anti joining the Commonwealth despite it being viewed as cutting off your nose to spite your face by many.The Commonwealth could be a platform for Ireland to network with other nations outside the EU.

gormdubhgorm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'm not even going to touch the gross simplification that is stating that the reason for aspiration towards unity is solely based on the fact that we're one island, that's been done to death.

But that is exactly what Gerry Adams claimed. He also claimed NI does not have a separate culture! It is only a 'political' culture. :rolleyes:

For me that is some mental gymnastics. In NI those who view themselves as British all speak the language of the mainland. Also they identify with British culture in general sense as well as politically.

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

Oh dear!
Only on republicans could refuse to even say the name of the country they were referring (unless of course you were including the behaviour of those Donegal yahoos)

The public holiday is for the 12th. I have never ever seen any of the behaviour you are talking anoint on the 12th

Most people down here refer to the north. Everybody understands what is meant as you did. I have no hang ups by saying ni either as I have often done in the past.

Yeah trust you to have selective blindness and deflect from the naked hatred of the 12th. Why have a public holiday which half the population don’t buy into? It’s crazy. Anyway you keep celebrating the hatred if it makes you happy.

munsterlegend

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's probably the right way although I did think Ireland aren't being particularly diplomatic about the way they are getting the message across. There are eyebrows being raised apparently in the US regarding Ireland's brusque attitude towards US travellers ,it might not be forgotten when Ireland is trying to wheedle backing from Irish americans.

We are in the middle of a world wide pandemic. Tourism will be affected everywhere until this is resolved. Illegal Irish immigrants being sent home does not stop Irish people visiting USA. Unless people are completely stupid they will fully understand why quarantine is necessary from countries like the USA and U.K.

Fionn1952

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But that is exactly what Gerry Adams claimed. He also claimed NI does not have a separate culture! It is only a 'political' culture. :rolleyes:

For me that is some mental gymnastics. In NI those who view themselves as British all speak the language of the mainland. Also they identify with British culture in general sense as well as politically.

Care to provide a specific quote to contextualise that?

Obviously I'll insert the caveat that Gerry Adams speaks for Sinn Fein and is not the sole voice or arbitrator of what Republicans think.

In the context of the Unionist community, I would disagree massively with your attributed statement that they don't have a separate culture. I don't think your reduction of it to just generic British culture does it much justice though. Then again, we're not likely to get anywhere with this discussion as you've acknowledged your narrow view of what constitutes culture is pretty much immovable.

In the case of the Nationalist/Republican section of the North (if we briefly park your idea that all Irish culture is pretty much dead and everyone is basically British anyway), the statement you've attributed to Gerry holds up reasonably well. I'm as culturally Irish as the people who grew up about ten miles from me in Cavan.

There are differences across the island of course, an average middle class 40 year old Dublin Gaeilgeoir has a different perspective and life experience to a 85 year old from Inis Mór. Growing up along the border. I have a different perspective and life experience to you. I'd argue that there is a much greater overarching commonality between those mentioned than there are differences, and a much greater overarching commonality between those groups than between any of them and the average bloke in London or Birmingham.

Likewise, given our shared history, it would be insane to claim or expect that British culture and Irish culture would not overlap. Irish culture of course shares more in common with British culture than it does with, for example Russian culture.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You just can’t hide your hatred for my culture.
Would you apply the same desire to cancelled st pats parades, fleadhs, etc. I guess not

Bonfires with hate filled people burning effigies of the recently dead and flags of countries they don't like is 'culture' now?

I don't hate your culture downcow, I hate belligerents of all creeds and politics.

You were celebrating the fact that the 12th passed off without any trouble. That is just sad in so many respects.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I will completely accept the referendum whatever direction it goes, but I will do all I can (reasonably peacefully) to maintain OWC

You've already lost that, it's not your wee country any more. If unionists had deigned to share the north then this whole UI thing might have been a thing of the past but ye are incapable of it.

Sure you're still ****ting the bed over the Irish language. A UI will be achieved in spite of Unionism.

Madeleine Birchfield

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You've already lost that, it's not your wee country any more. If unionists had deigned to share the north then this whole UI thing might have been a thing of the past but ye are incapable of it.

Sure you're still ****ting the bed over the Irish language. A UI will be achieved in spite of Unionism.

I'm worried that a UI would be accompanied by terrorist attacks by Unionist paramilitaries angry and upset that they are no longer a part of Great Britain.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I can't think of very many Republicans on here or in my normal life who don't support the GFA, Downcow.

By the very nature of the GFA, anyone who supports it does not fall under your description. By supporting the GFA, people inherently support the right of NI to self determine, it's kind of the whole point of it.

My own view is quite simple, and I suspect the umbrella that the vast majority of Republicans would fall under. I would like to see the people of the North exercise their right to self determination to CHOOSE unification. You may be able to find one or two examples of people on here from a Republican perspective who don't fall within that general outlook, but a MAJORITY? I think not.

If you feel it is the majority view, can you point out a handful of regular posters who have stated they do not support the GFA and the right of NI to self-determine?

I'm not even going to touch the gross simplification that is stating that the reason for aspiration towards unity is solely based on the fact that we're one island, that's been done to death.

if you are correct, that is wonderful news. I suspect though you are out of step with the majority of the Bobby story funeral types. I doubt very much if they inherently support the right of NI to self determine

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

Most people down here refer to the north. Everybody understands what is meant as you did. I have no hang ups by saying ni either as I have often done in the past.

Yeah trust you to have selective blindness and deflect from the naked hatred of the 12th. Why have a public holiday which half the population don’t buy into? It’s crazy. Anyway you keep celebrating the hatred if it makes you happy.

I think you will find half of the Northern Ireland population don't buy into St Patrick's Day celebrations, and it's a public holiday. More selective blindness

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Bonfires with hate filled people burning effigies of the recently dead and flags of countries they don't like is 'culture' now?

I don't hate your culture downcow, I hate belligerents of all creeds and politics.

You were celebrating the fact that the 12th passed off without any trouble. That is just sad in so many respects.

Well sure you tell us what trouble there was on the 12th this year.
And I did not say that it passed off without any trouble. There was certainly trouble as nationalists use that fires in the middle of the Road and stoned the police.

And it is a bit pathetic to put down a celebration which involves hundreds of thousands of people just because a few behave in an inappropriate manner. That would be like putting down the entire St Patrick's Day celebration just because of being offended by those who burn my flag

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You've already lost that, it's not your wee country any more. If unionists had deigned to share the north then this whole UI thing might have been a thing of the past but ye are incapable of it.

Sure you're still ****ting the bed over the Irish language. A UI will be achieved in spite of Unionism.

You are displaying your bigotry again junkyard, and worse than that, trying to include me in it.
When I refer to Our Wee Country the 'our' refers to everyone living in Northern Ireland who wants to see our wee country move forward, nationalist, Unionist, Newcomer, etc

downcow

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

I'm worried that a UI would be accompanied by terrorist attacks by Unionist paramilitaries angry and upset that they are no longer a part of Great Britain.

Well we are not part of Great Britain anyhow, but that's a little pedantic of me, I am sure you mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I don't actually think there would be a sustained terrorist campaign by Unionists. Certainly there is the potential for sporadic stuff, and there is the potential of a sustained campaign, but unlikely I think.
Much more of a worry for you should be dealing with what those of us who love Northern Ireland have dealt with for the past 50 years i.e. a significant minority who are fairly determined to ensure state does not work, and who have aspirations to not belong to it.
This is the real conundrum for those living in the Republic of Ireland. You will suddenly have 1 million Unionists who do not feel part of it and want to disassociate with it, who will not work for its benefit and will be agitating for change and for more and more autonomy. They will never be satisfied. It will be like feeding the crocodiles.
They will be a minority feeling discriminated against in the land that they have lived in and called home for 400 years. You will be under serious pressure to transform all about Irish culture and identity so as these 1 million minority feel included - and even then, they will still not feel included
This is just the reality

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

I think you will find half of the Northern Ireland population don't buy into St Patrick's Day celebrations, and it's a public holiday. More selective blindness

I don’t remember 3 children dying because people believed they had some right to walk down a road as a result of st Patrick’s day. You call it culture.anyone outside your small world calls it out for what it is. Unfortunately it appears another generation are exposed to hateful bonfires about killing their neighbours.

It’s amazing how orange marching really only takes place in very limited places as opposed to the worldwide celebration st Patrick’s day is. Even unionists get to go to the White House as a result of it. To compare the 2 days is nonsensical.

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

I don’t remember 3 children dying because people believed they had some right to walk down a road as a result of st Patrick’s day. You call it culture.anyone outside your small world calls it out for what it is. Unfortunately it appears another generation are exposed to hateful bonfires about killing their neighbours.

It’s amazing how orange marching really only takes place in very limited places as opposed to the worldwide celebration st Patrick’s day is. Even unionists get to go to the White House as a result of it. To compare the 2 days is nonsensical.

Just what had the deaths of three children got to do with the twelfth.

As for st Patrick’s day

“BELFAST, Northern Ireland -- An IRA sniper killed a young British soldier and a bomb injured two civilian workmen Wednesday in separate attacks that marred St. Patrick's Day celebrations in Northern Ireland.

The attack was condemned by the Roman Catholic primate of Ireland, Cardinal Cahal Daly, who called the shooting an atrocity that 'desecrated' St. Patrick's Day celebrations and 'will bring shame to the faces of Irish people all over the world.'
In another attack, two Protestant civilians were injured but closely escaped death when a limpet bomb exploded under their van just as they left the vehicle to pick up equipment at a builders yard near Draperstown in county Londonderry, 65 miles northwest of Belfast.”

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/03/17/St-Patricks-Day-marred-by-violence-in-Ulster/8792732344400/

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

significant minority who are fairly determined to ensure state does not work

What would they want? You have a majority in two of the 6 counties, no majority in Belfast or Derry. You know that when a pro-UI vote happens that the rotten sectarian project that was designed to fail will be consigned to the dustbin of history.

1 million Unionists who do not feel part of it and want to disassociate with it, who will not work for its benefit and will be agitating for change and for more and more autonomy. They will never be satisfied. It will be like feeding the crocodiles.

That's fine but they can do it as part of the 8 million people in a United Ireland.

You will be under serious pressure to transform all about Irish culture and identity

In your dreams. The vast majority of Unionists will become willing members of the Irish nation given time.

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/03/17/St-Patricks-Day-marred-by-violence-in-Ulster/8792732344400/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/12/newsid_2500000/2500503.stm

Of course you completely deflect as to why orange parades are a localised event compared to st Patrick’s day. No one outside of a sectarian mindset wants to have anything to do with some battle in 1690 and use it as some reason for superiority over their neighbour.

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/12/newsid_2500000/2500503.stm

Of course you completely deflect as to why orange parades are a localised event compared to st Patrick’s day. No one outside of a sectarian mindset wants to have anything to do with some battle in 1690 and use it as some reason for superiority over their neighbour.

Because there are very few plastic oranges accross the world Plenty of plastic Irish though. Lol

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Just what had the deaths of three children got to do with the twelfth.

Wow. That is actually one of the most horrible things ever posted in this thread.
Those children died because people could not march down a road.

Remember that when you are making a virtue out of this year's restraint.

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

Because there are very few plastic oranges accross the world Plenty of plastic Irish though. Lol

And you were trying to tell us before that no one listens to what the local orange leader has to say on the 12th from the back of his lorry. That would make them plastic orange people I guess. It’s a ‘family fun day’ once all the bile has been released at the bonfires and the marching done.

The reason why st Patrick’s day is celebrated around the world is simple. It’s not built on hatred DC. Your culture will never expand but only dwindle like the orange order has been for years.

Dyr

munsterlegend wrote: »

The reason why st Patrick’s day is celebrated around the world is simple. It’s not built on hatred DC. Your culture will never expand but only dwindle like the orange order has been for years.

Same reason Halloween is celebrated all over the world, us Taigs know how to have fun with bonfires without acting like twats

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

The devolved governments have set out their own stalls,tailored to the conditions unique to their area of the UK and have done really well, especially NI despite having to deal with the irresponsible shenanigans we are seeing in Ireland. This alone has caused dismay amongst the resident disgruntled republicans as it doesn't fit with the 'UK bad' scenario they have unsuccessfully attempted to cultivate.
Btw,I was replying to a post by Downcow who is worried about Ireland's R rate rising and its possible affect on NI.
Regarding me 'coming on here preaching',are you suggesting I can't comment or compare notes with Downcow,a fellow British person?

Wait, isn't the devolved Northern administration a cross community shared administration?

So republicans are involved.

What you fail to remember was republicans and Nationalists were píssed off at unionist insistence on following Westminster's disastrous approach at the beginning.

It was the insistence to stick closely with Dublin at that stage has meant that the North is in such good shape right now. But yeah, republicans bad etc.

I think the suggestion about your comments is that it's a bit rich for someone in England to be preaching to anyone here about Covid nevermind your goodself who doesn't exactly get or understand "Ireland".

---

You never did answer my question as to why Irish people should move from their homes say on the Falls to South of the border for no other reason than you don't think their aspiration for a UI is a legitimate one?