How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well, I never said any of those things. But you DID say that the crowd in Croke Park we're legitimate targets and that you condoned their killing.

So maybe whist a bit before coming in here talking nonsense about my apparent "trolling".

I don`t play whist

Junkyard Tom

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don`t play whist

Jaysus Rob has marching season gotten to you or what?

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don`t play whist

And you don't deny you condone the deaths of innocent people at the hands of murderous British State Auxiliaries. Good to know where you stand.

Perfidious indeed.

RobMc59

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Jaysus Rob has marching season gotten to you or what?

Tom,the only marching I've ever done was military marching and whist is a card game.

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

Tom,the only marching I've ever done was military marching and whist is a card game.

Wait until someone tells Rob that sometimes words can have more than one meaning.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Jaysus Rob has marching season gotten to you or what?

Here junkyard, now you are back with us. Tell me. Do you support Northern Ireland’s right to self-determination?

BonnieSituation

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Wait until someone tells Rob that sometimes words can have more than one meaning.

His Hiberno-English knowledge isn't as in-depth as you'd think it would be for someone so knowledgeable about Ireland.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Here junkyard, now you are back with us. Tell me. Do you support Northern Ireland’s right to self-determination?

Sure. What for exactly?

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Sure. What for exactly?

Is that yes. Or is that another question?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Is that yes. Or is that another question?

Looks like you are on your own downcow. You are the only one on this thread who cannot guarantee to remain peaceful if self determination doesn't go the way you determine.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Is that yes. Or is that another question?

Yes, I support self-determination for the people in the six counties/NI.

What for exactly?

Junkyard Tom

RobMc59 wrote: »

Tom,the only marching I've ever done was military marching and whist is a card game.

Rob, don't fool yourself into believing that these people were your allies, they weren't. They would have spilled the blood of every soldier ye could have sent and spent every last sovereign in Her Majesty's Treasury to keep their rotten little sectarian statelet.

I have a fair bit of sympathy for the regular British soldier, young working class lads sent to the north to fight a dirty war for that crowd, I'm sure if they'd known all the facts they'd have been wondering why they were sent there at all.

Edgware

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Rob, don't fool yourself into believing that these people were your allies, they weren't. They would have spilled the blood of every soldier ye could have sent and spent every last sovereign in Her Majesty's Treasury to keep their rotten little sectarian statelet.

I have a fair bit of sympathy for the regular British soldier, young working class lads sent to the north to fight a dirty war for that crowd, I'm sure if they'd known all the facts they'd have been wondering why they were sent there at all.

You could say the same thing about the gullible young men and women who wasted years in Long Kesh and Armagh only to see Freddie, Donaldson and the rest live the good life paid for by MI5

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

You could say the same thing about the gullible young men and women who wasted years in Long Kesh and Armagh only to see Freddie, Donaldson and the rest live the good life paid for by MI5

I met many a squaddie going through checkpoints here, invariably decent young men but to a man, they were nervous, suspicious and hadn't a clue who to trust or what they were dropped into. With everyone of them you got the distinct impression they would rather be anywhere else on the planet than were they were.

Any former members of the IRA I have met do not share the above traits and gullible would not be a word I would associate with them. They all knew very definitely what they were involved in and where they were.
I would imagine the same could be said of loyalist recruits.

Edgware

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I met many a squaddie going through checkpoints here, invariably decent young men but to a man, they were nervous, suspicious and hadn't a clue who to trust or what they were dropped into. With everyone of them you got the distinct impression they would rather be anywhere else on the planet than were they were.

Any former members of the IRA I have met do not share the above traits and gullible would not be a word I would associate with them. They all knew very definitely what they were involved in and where they were.
I would imagine the same could be said of loyalist recruits.

Then why did all these lads turn turk in the 80s when the Provos were riddled with informers.
They realised that they had been led up the garden path by Adams and co and were destined to rot in Kesh for 20 years

Junkyard Tom

Edgware wrote: »

You could say the same thing about the gullible young men and women who wasted years in Long Kesh and Armagh only to see Freddie, Donaldson and the rest live the good life paid for by MI5

Yes, they were lured to the IRA with glossy brochures and promises of adventure and not by seeing their neighbours being beaten and murdered by the security forces.

People who joined the Provos were told to expect death or jail, older Republicans often say they never expected to reach old age.

Edgware

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Yes, they were lured to the IRA with glossy brochures and promises of adventure and not by seeing their neighbours being beaten and murdered by the security forces.

People who joined the Provos were told to expect death or jail, older Republicans often say they never expected to reach old age.

They didnt expect to be "sold a pup" as Francie Molloy thinks

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

Then why did all these lads turn turk in the 80s when the Provos were riddled with informers.
They realised that they had been led up the garden path by Adams and co and were destined to rot in Kesh for 20 years

Not familiar with the 'turn turk' remark...is it a derogatory one?

No doubt, as I have said before, that all sorts attached themselves to the IRA as they did to the BA, and loyalists...people join army's for all sorts of reasons.

We will have to wait for proper research and history to see how big an issue that was in the IRA.
Depending on the spin of those wanting to claim 'victory' or 'defeat' is untrustworthy at the minute, it varies from 100's to none at all. Claim and counter claim.

It certainly features strongly in the narrative propounded by loyalist and partitionist alike.

Junkyard Tom

Edgware wrote: »

Then why did all these lads turn turk in the 80s when the Provos were riddled with informers.
They realised that they had been led up the garden path by Adams and co and were destined to rot in Kesh for 20 years

The PIRA were assassinating RUC/BA and blowing up British business districts well into the 1990's, somehow the informers couldn't get that info to their handlers.

[in the 1990's] it was revealed, reportedly by Sir John Wilsey, the Army’s General Officer Commanding in Northern Ireland that “the PIRA is better equipped, better resourced, better led, bolder and more secure against our penetration than at any time before

Journal
International Journal of Intelligence and CounterIntelligence
Volume 23, 2010 - Issue 1

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The PIRA were assassinating RUC/BA and blowing up British business districts well into the 1990's, somehow the informers couldn't get that info to their handlers.

[in the 1990's] it was revealed, reportedly by Sir John Wilsey, the Army’s General Officer Commanding in Northern Ireland that “the PIRA is better equipped, better resourced, better led, bolder and more secure against our penetration than at any time before

Journal
International Journal of Intelligence and CounterIntelligence
Volume 23, 2010 - Issue 1

Like I say...claim and counter claim.


An organisation 'riddled' with informers doesn't tally with an organisation that was able to negotiate while still fully armed or one that was able to mount attacks in the heart of Britain to nudge them towards a deal.

It will be many years before we know the truth. It will be immaterial then as it is now, the IRA are pursuing purely political avenues and that is a good thing.

Edgware

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Like I say...claim and counter claim.


An organisation 'riddled' with informers doesn't tally with an organisation that was able to negotiate while still fully armed or one that was able to mount attacks in the heart of Britain to nudge them towards a deal.

It will be many years before we know the truth. It will be immaterial then as it is now, the IRA are pursuing purely political avenues and that is a good thing.

Have another read through and you will see "80s". By the time the 90s came Gerry and the Peacemakers knew it was stalemate and decided to get on the Stormont payroll officially

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

Have another read through and you will see "80s". By the time the 90s came Gerry and the Peacemakers knew it was stalemate and decided to get on the Stormont payroll officially

Ah right...the spies just left them to it in the 90's?

I couldn't care less if Gerry was meeting Mrs Windsor and handing over lists of names and addresses tbh. I am happy with where we are and with the GFA. Happy that the IRA are gone.

Seems to me this spy/informer thing would present Unionists/Loyalists, partitionists and apologists with a moral dilemma though when you look at the death toll across the 2 decades. Were the informers not very good/high level enough or were the British turning a blind eye to the killing/bombing?

timthumbni

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Like I say...claim and counter claim.


An organisation 'riddled' with informers doesn't tally with an organisation that was able to negotiate while still fully armed or one that was able to mount attacks in the heart of Britain to nudge them towards a deal.

It will be many years before we know the truth. It will be immaterial then as it is now, the IRA are pursuing purely political avenues and that is a good thing.

Yes, Tis a pity the IRA were such slow learners. I mean who would have thought that shooting and bombing your way to a laughably so called “United” Ireland would never work.

I don’t think anyone needs to thank the Ira for stopping murdering men, women and children in some pointless provo bloodlust. But I suppose when the loyalist terrorists were starting to murder at similar rates then they realised their murderous game was up.

30 years of terrorist murder btw to allow Gerry to lord it up at some 500 dollar a head banquet with rich dopey Irish Americans. I wonder did they toast their hunger strikers as they tucked into their beef wellingtons.

FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

Yes, Tis a pity the IRA were such slow learners. I mean who would have thought that shooting and bombing your way to a laughably so called “United” Ireland would never work.

I don’t think anyone needs to thank the Ira for stopping murdering men, women and children in some pointless provo bloodlust. But I suppose when the loyalist terrorists were starting to murder at similar rates then they realised their murderous game was up.

30 years of terrorist murder btw to allow Gerry to lord it up at some 500 dollar a head banquet with rich dopey Irish Americans. I wonder did they toast their hunger strikers as they tucked into their beef wellingtons.

Oh there's no bitterness quite like a Unionist/Loyalist's bitterness. 20 or more years you have been railing and kicking against the 'great betrayal'.

100 years of partition and sarcrifice for the motherland and the British are still using Irish unionists and casting them aside like flotsam but yeh...them republicans.

di11on

I'll confess right away to not having read through a significant portion of this thread but wanted to chime in here with my thoughts anyway...

I've always sympathized with the romantic notion of a united Ireland - but the idea has always seemed tainted for me. I think there are many reasons for this :
- Dev and the unfortunate theocracy he created
- Violence
- The whole sacrifice cultish side of things

We went on a family holiday to Korea recently. What struck me really hard was the deep collective sense of sorrow of being devided. They have a strong culture and a common past through the various dynasties and kingdoms on the peninsula and it feels as though everyone feels connected to it and proud. There is a pervasive longing for reunification that permeates everything. Reunification is spoken about as if it is inevitable. It's the only just outcome for these people.

I felt jealous of how untainted their desire for reunification is and the efforts to pursue it.

I feel Ireland has a chance now to re-own the idea of a united Ireland. If we look at Irish culture today, there are aspects of it that we can be truly proud of - especially when it comes to progressiveness and inclusion. I feel this unites many north and south. I think if we are ever to have a united Ireland, we need a new vision of what that is and what it means that is completely disassociated with the negative things of the past and focuses more on our present strengths. But we need strong leadership to make that happen.

timthumbni

di11on wrote: »

I'll confess right away to not having read through a significant portion of this thread but wanted to chime in here with my thoughts anyway...

I've always sympathized with the romantic notion of a united Ireland - but the idea has always seemed tainted for me. I think there are many reasons for this :
- Dev and the unfortunate theocracy he created
- Violence
- The whole sacrifice cultish side of things

We went on a family holiday to Korea recently. What struck me really hard was the deep collective sense of sorrow of being devided. They have a strong culture and a common past through the various dynasties and kingdoms on the peninsula and it feels as though everyone feels connected to it and proud. There is a pervasive longing for reunification that permeates everything. Reunification is spoken about as if it is inevitable. It's the only just outcome for these people.

I felt jealous of how untainted their desire for reunification is and the efforts to pursue it.

I feel Ireland has a chance now to re-own the idea of a united Ireland. If we look at Irish culture today, there are aspects of it that we can be truly proud of - especially when it comes to progressiveness and inclusion. I feel this unites many north and south. I think if we are ever to have a united Ireland, we need a new vision of what that is and what it means that is completely disassociated with the negative things of the past and focuses more on our present strengths. But we need strong leadership to make that happen.

With a party like SF taking most of the nationalist vote in Northern Ireland it will be very difficult to disassociate with the negative past. You only have to look at their antics recently at the IRA funeral to see just how difficult that will be. And if you ever see their Londonderry MEP being interviewed about any subject you would also understand why unionists and indeed many neutrals feel nothing but distaste and disgust regarding the party.

Their island of equals patter is laughable when you look at their other actions.

FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

With a party like SF taking most of the nationalist vote in Northern Ireland it will be very difficult to disassociate with the negative past. You only have to look at their antics recently at the IRA funeral to see just how difficult that will be. And if you ever see their Londonderry MEP being interviewed about any subject you would also understand why unionists and indeed many neutrals feel nothing but distaste and disgust regarding the party.

Their island of equals patter is laughable when you look at their other actions.

Bit rich given the history of unionism in all it's forms.
Poster is right though, SF don't own the concept of a UI. That is something that Unionism would do well to accept and engage in the conversation.

gormdubhgorm

Interesting how Gerry Adams more recently gave more conciliatory soundbites to Unionists about a UI (when he was a TD for Louth) compared to his 1982 panorama interview.

Belligerent, intolerant 1982 Gerry:

When said there was no Unionist Culture it was a political culture.

Mellow Louth TD 2014 Gerry doing his best preacher spiel:

@0:34

"There is no way we can put the shoe on the other foot. There is no way we want to be part of doing unto our Unionist brothers and sisters, what was done unto us we might have to be innovative"


@1:37

"There is no point in creating a new state, or a new system of governance on this island. And have a large alienated minority of people who would be against what's going on. It has to be governance by the people for the people."


'Unionist brothers and sisters' - cracked me up

Dyr

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Yes, they were lured to the IRA with glossy brochures and promises of adventure and not by seeing their neighbours being beaten and murdered by the security forces.

People who joined the Provos were told to expect death or jail, older Republicans often say they never expected to reach old age.

Here's an interesting thing, if there had ever been a survey of the men who served in the ASUs in the 20s, the civil war, prison etc., it would probably find a lot of them didnt make it to their 50s, it all took a toll on their health. I'd say with a lot of provos it was the same.

WRT to intelligence war, there was book recently published looking at this, it concluded the IRA was not significanly compromised by British intelligence. How true that is I don't know.

Dyr

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Interesting how Gerry Adams gave more recently gave more conciliatory soundbites to Unionists about a UI (when he was a TD for Louth) compared to his 1982 panorama interview.

Belligerent, intolerant 1982 Gerry:

When said there was no Unionist Culture it was a political culture.

Mellow Louth TD 2014 Gerry doing his best preacher spiel:

@0:34

"There is no way we can put the shoe on the other foot. There is no way we want to be part of doing unto our Unionist brothers and sisters, what was done unto us we might have to be innovative"


@1:37

"There is no point in creating a new state, or a new system of governance on this island And have a large alienated minority of people who would be against what's going on. It has to be governance by the people for the people."


'Unionist brothers and sisters' - cracked me up

yeah, its hard to believe a mans views might soften over the course of almost forty years.