How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Doesn't this totally go against your point about self determination, Downcow?! The hypocrisy is hanging out again if this is an actual goal of yours.

Guy's please try to keep up. I am absolutely not suggesting such, I am using it as an example for Fitz. I am just wondering would he hold talks with the only outcome on the agenda was something that was the opposite of what he wanted

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

Yes I did

Go back and check.

Okay, that's fine Fitz, I missed that.
Will we open a thread on it LOL

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

SF allowed to avoid hard questions and are permitted to enter DE and Stormont even though they are not a 'normal' political party (as Francie Brady said).

What 'hard questions' are they allowed avoid?

Are these the questions you guys have already decided on the answers you want?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Guy's please try to keep up. I am absolutely not suggesting such, I am using it as an example for Fitz. I am just wondering would he hold talks with the only outcome on the agenda was something that was the opposite of what he wanted

You support the GFA which states that a UI will happen if the majority decide on that.
Are the Unionists community going to huff if it doesn't go their way?
Will it be ok for the Nationalist community to huff and not take part in government if they fail to get a UI?

You are not much of a democrat when it comes down to it. Refuse to engage if you don't get your way and refuse to guarantee that you will be peaceful if you don't get your way either.

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

Okay, that's fine Fitz, I missed that.
Will we open a thread on it LOL

As I said previously, the more discussions, the better. The more we understand the fears of the people who we want to share the island with, the better.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Guy's please try to keep up. I am absolutely not suggesting such, I am using it as an example for Fitz. I am just wondering would he hold talks with the only outcome on the agenda was something that was the opposite of what he wanted

See the thing is Downcow, if I still lived in the North I would absolutely be part of talks as to what I would like an inclusive NI to look like while it remains part of the United Kingdom.

I would continue to aspire towards unification, but I can also accept that there is a possibility that won't happen. If unification isn't going to happen, I have a responsibility to future generations to ensure that even should it not be exactly what I hope for, that I at least ensure some compromises are made to accommodate my community.

I would suggest that while Unionists will never aspire towards unification, those who are reasonably minded will at least accept it is a possibility and ensure that they can at least make their voice heard in making it as palatable as possible to them.

You seem to be arguing in favour of ostrich techniques. Bury your head in the sand, pretend it is impossible, and act like engaging with a bit of hedging would somehow make it worse for you.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Really the greatest evidence of all is that the Protestant population dropped from 10% to 3%. And a fair proportion of those 3% that remained were wealthy influencers

That's evidence of nothing. The slave population grew in the US. Ireland prided itself on its treatment of religious minorities.

A lot of Protestants were involved with the British state and left after independence and I have one thing to say about that: 'tough shit', if you left your home because you couldn't lord it over your neighbours then don't let the door hit you on the way out.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You support the GFA which states that a UI will happen if the majority decide on that.
Are the Unionists community going to huff if it doesn't go their way?
Will it be ok for the Nationalist community to huff and not take part in government if they fail to get a UI?

You are not much of a democrat when it comes down to it. Refuse to engage if you don't get your way and refuse to guarantee that you will be peaceful if you don't get your way either.

Francie, I don't know how many times I need to say to you, that I completely support the GFA and should there be a border poll, I will completely abide by the result. That is the deal.
I am as sure as I can be about anything that we will not see the majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting to leave the UK in my lifetime or my children's lifetime.

In the unlikely scenario that there would be a majority vote for a united Ireland, I have little doubt that the vast majority of my community will feel alienated and will be campaigning for as much autonomy as possible. We will obviously want a devolved government at Stormont, and I can't think of any scenario where the ROI government would not support that. They would undoubtedly be getting I made a collision course if they did not.
I am curious, do you think they would refuse devolution for Northern Ireland?
I just hope we can keep our football team, and there is clearly a precedent for that, as England Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland are all in the same union but have separate teams.
I am also curious Francie, would you support our desire to have a separate football team?

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

As I said previously, the more discussions, the better. The more we understand the fears of the people who we want to share the island with, the better.

Okay Fitz, I think you are genuine, and you have sucked me into a discussion.

Can I start with a few questions I was asking an earlier post. In this hypothetical situation of a united Ireland would you:

• support devolution for Northern Ireland to a similar extent as Scotland currently have in the UK?

• Would you allow us to have's two sporting teams, similar to England Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland currently in the UK? In fact would you go further and lobby FIFA to allow it
• Would you allow our road signage to stay as it is i.e. not bilingual like the rest of the island?
• Will you allow our parades in new capital city i.e. Dublin?
• Will you change your anthem and flag as obviously what you currently have has very bad memories from my community?
• Will you insist that major sporting bodies on the island become nonsectarian i.e. not allow them to parade religious priests at their events?
• Will you allow us to keep our British passports and negotiate British nationality for several generations of children?

That's just a few for starters Fitz

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

See the thing is Downcow, if I still lived in the North I would absolutely be part of talks as to what I would like an inclusive NI to look like while it remains part of the United Kingdom.

I would continue to aspire towards unification, but I can also accept that there is a possibility that won't happen. If unification isn't going to happen, I have a responsibility to future generations to ensure that even should it not be exactly what I hope for, that I at least ensure some compromises are made to accommodate my community.

I would suggest that while Unionists will never aspire towards unification, those who are reasonably minded will at least accept it is a possibility and ensure that they can at least make their voice heard in making it as palatable as possible to them.

You seem to be arguing in favour of ostrich techniques. Bury your head in the sand, pretend it is impossible, and act like engaging with a bit of hedging would somehow make it worse for you.

you see Fionn there is plenty of time for that if it should ever happen. If it happened my community would have the whip hand. A minority of 1 million people who have just had their country taken of them and feel alienated by their new rulers. A few centuries ago you could have just put us down, but unfortunately for you the world will not stand by and let you do that. They will instead ask you very hard questions about why this minority are feeling so alienated

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie, I don't know how many times I need to say to you, that I completely support the GFA and should there be a border poll, I will completely abide by the result. That is the deal.
I am as sure as I can be about anything that we will not see the majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting to leave the UK in my lifetime or my children's lifetime.

In the unlikely scenario that there would be a majority vote for a united Ireland, I have little doubt that the vast majority of my community will feel alienated and will be campaigning for as much autonomy as possible. We will obviously want a devolved government at Stormont, and I can't think of any scenario where the ROI government would not support that. They would undoubtedly be getting I made a collision course if they did not.
I am curious, do you think they would refuse devolution for Northern Ireland?

I am not sure what planet you inhabit.
A UI is a solution to the division partition has caused.
Leaving NI the way it is, is not a solution.
Economically having doubling up of dept's and governance would be ridiculous. Where would it stop?
So the answer is no.

I just hope we can keep our football team, and there is clearly a precedent for that, as England Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland are all in the same union but have separate teams.
I am also curious Francie, would you support our desire to have a separate football team?

That is one of the sillier outcomes I have heard.
A team to represent somewhere that no longer exists? Madness.

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

Okay Fitz, I think you are genuine, and you have sucked me into a discussion.

Can I start with a few questions I was asking an earlier post. In this hypothetical situation of a united Ireland would you:

• support devolution for Northern Ireland to a similar extent as Scotland currently have in the UK? I would definitely be up for a discussion as to how that would look.

• Would you allow us to have's two sporting teams, similar to England Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland currently in the UK? In fact would you go further and lobby FIFA to allow it As an Ireland fan, this would not bother me one iota
• Would you allow our road signage to stay as it is i.e. not bilingual like the rest of the island? As an Irish language enthusiast, I couldn't care less what's on a sign, so yes.
• Will you allow our parades in new capital city i.e. Dublin? Yes
• Will you change your anthem and flag as obviously what you currently have has very bad memories from my community? I think that both are on the table, and personally, happy for both to be up for discussion if it helps smooths the process.
• Will you insist that major sporting bodies on the island become nonsectarian i.e. not allow them to parade religious priests at their events? I don't understand this one fully, and not aware of sectarian priests being paraded by sporting bodies, but as someone who has no interest in the Catholic church having any say in anything, then yes.
• Will you allow us to keep our British passports and negotiate British nationality for several generations of children? 100% yes

That's just a few for starters Fitz

All answered

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

you see Fionn there is plenty of time for that if it should ever happen. If it happened my community would have the whip hand. A minority of 1 million people who have just had their country taken of them and feel alienated by their new rulers. A few centuries ago you could have just put us down, but unfortunately for you the world will not stand by and let you do that. They will instead ask you very hard questions about why this minority are feeling so alienated

It's like reading the rantings of someone from bizarro world!

Have you no self-awareness?

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

All answered

Fitz. If they were all like you it would be very hard to prevent a UI. Ironically your attitude would drive a UI while sf attitude ensures it will never happen.
So ironically your position is more threatening but I do appreciate your openness to my identity
It’s actually difficult for me to find an argument against a UI if yours was the view of the majority of nationalists.

Actually I did word the flags and anthems one wrong. If this is unification of the two countries then of course there are two anthems and two flags at play so getting rid of them all seems inevitable. Although I suppose the 26 counties could keep theirs and the devolved 6 counties could keep theirs

But here fitz it seems like not much changes in your scenario except that your 2 million tax payers take on the responsibility that 20million british tax payers are currently bankrolling. How do you feel about that?

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What 'hard questions' are they allowed avoid?

Are these the questions you guys have already decided on the answers you want?

Come on Francie you know them all. I certainly do not have to list them all. They are all on record. Even on a smaller simplier level SF are odd. As you said yourself they are not a normal political party. Damn right they are not!

After all SF is a party with leader in the Dail who cannot and will not say, the name of the State they are purporting to represent! :rolleyes:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/newton-emerson-sinn-f%C3%A9in-will-not-be-told-what-to-call-the-republic-1.4192872?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fnewton-emerson-sinn-f%25C3%25A9in-will-not-be-told-what-to-call-the-republic-1.4192872


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/why-sinn-f%C3%A9in-will-not-call-the-state-by-its-name-1.4182195

'This State' and 'Southern Government' are used and so on. :mad:

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

All answered

Another question fitz. If the british community ended up concentrated east of the river Bann, and there was no real appetite west of the Bann for devolution. Would you let them guys stay in the big bit and let east of the Bann have devolution.

You’ll be making Francie I’ll with this talk lol

downcow

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Come on Francie you know them all. I certainly do not have to list them all. They are all on record. Even on a smaller simplier level SF are odd. As you said yourself they are not a normal political party. Damn right they are not!

After all SF is a party with leader in the Dail who cannot and will not say, the name of the State they are purporting to represent! :rolleyes:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/newton-emerson-sinn-f%C3%A9in-will-not-be-told-what-to-call-the-republic-1.4192872?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fnewton-emerson-sinn-f%25C3%25A9in-will-not-be-told-what-to-call-the-republic-1.4192872

'This State' and 'Southern Government' are used and so on. :mad:

Haha. I had never really noticed that, but now you mention it.
What is it they won’t say? And there was me thinking it was just the name of my country they despised. They are a wired lot

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Another question fitz. If the british community ended up concentrated east of the river Bann, and there was no real appetite west of the Bann for devolution. Would you let them guys stay in the big bit and let east of the Bann have devolution.

You’ll be making Francie I’ll with this talk lol

Best wait to see what happens eh?

Why would you agree to this out the gate before we have a UI?

You've become more erratic on this subject in recent days.

You're obviously spooked.

gormdubhgorm

downcow wrote: »

Haha. I had never really noticed that, but now you mention it.
What is it they won’t say? And there was me thinking it was just the name of my country they despised. They are a wired lot

It is exactly what I mean by Nordie codology that is seeping into the ROI. Anyone from the Republic would notice it because it stands out like a sore thumb in Dail Eireann. It winds me up anyway. Yet they are on about 'moving on' and inclusiveness.
At least we have moved on from 'the occupied six' to 'the six counties'. SF become very good with numbers 26 counties and 6 counties etc.

On the other side of things Londonderry winds me up as well. Because it is basically a Unionist piss-take on a predominately Nationalist community there, as far I am concerned.

But as is shown again, both sides are as bad as each other when playing with names Up in NI - sorry I mean North of Ireland
But now in the ROI we get fun and games with words and names, thanks to SF. Yay! :rolleyes:

Flags are OK down here luckily unlike up there....

Someone has yet to convince me that such peoples, are ready to be United in anyway shape or form!

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I described the murder as disgusting and despicable. You must have missed that bit.

Speaking from both sides of your mouth, DC.

I was taking offence to Francie raising that disgusting murder in a discussion on the 12th to somehow demonstrate that that those involved in parading had something to do with it. That is a horrible untrue accusation.
Drugs were at the core of it. Even you qualify your claim of sectarianism by suggesting a personal grudge was involved - and you are also raising something I know nothing about ie giving sweets to kids.

Nope, according to the Judge, sectarianism was at the heart of it. Only mention of drugs was where the person accused of the murder of the 3 boys, claimed that the boys uncle had given his three year old daughter drugs! The judge in the case didn't believe him.

As for bands seemingly insisting to play music past their granny’s house. That is plain wrong and I condemn it unequivocally.

Can you understand why a lot of other people watching this display would have a few question marks as to what kind of a band culture would actually do this. Can you explain why these bands would actually do this?

The irony. With the kids growing up as prods in a working class community, building the boney and going to parades, it is inevitable some of them would have ended up as members of one of these bands.

It just shows the world that no matter what nationalists do to please their protestant neighbours (such as trying to get involved in protestant culture), they will never be accepted by the protestant community and why there never will be an independent NI.

This was a horrible chaotic time and most unionist politicians were doing all they could to defuse the situation on the 12th morning, with facts not clear, so you shouldn’t take their words at that time as evidence of anything.

A terrible summer.
4 people including these 3 kids and a terrorist were killed by so-called loyalists
while 31 People, all civilians including 11 children were killed by so-called Irish republicans.

Usual unionist defence a la Ian Paisley who commented about the loyalist murder of those 3 boys that the IRA had killed a lot more.!

But I repeat Francie used this tragedy to have a go at my community and culture and I simply presented some facts to bring some context

You didn't present any facts as you didn't know them.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Come on Francie you know them all. I certainly do not have to list them all. They are all on record. Even on a smaller simplier level SF are odd. As you said yourself they are not a normal political party. Damn right they are not!

After all SF is a party with leader in the Dail who cannot and will not say, the name of the State they are purporting to represent! :rolleyes:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/newton-emerson-sinn-f%C3%A9in-will-not-be-told-what-to-call-the-republic-1.4192872?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fnewton-emerson-sinn-f%25C3%25A9in-will-not-be-told-what-to-call-the-republic-1.4192872
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/why-sinn-f%C3%A9in-will-not-call-the-state-by-its-name-1.4182195

'This State' and 'Southern Government' are used and so on. :mad:

That's an observation GD not a question. Not hard to work out why if you spend a nano second thinking about it.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That's an observation GD not a question. Not hard to work out why if you spend a nano second thinking about it.

In a hard line Republican mind it makes perfect sense, but to anyone else it sounds farcical. 'Catch yerself hon' is all I have to say about that codology.
So as to make sure any non-'Southerners' will understand my opinion on it.

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

In a hard line Republican mind it makes perfect sense, but to anyone else it sounds farcical. 'Catch yerself hon' is all I have to say about that codology.
So as to make sure any non-'Southerners' will understand my opinion on it.

What language are you speaking here? That is incoherent waffle.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

In a hard line Republican mind it makes perfect sense, but to anyone else it sounds farcical. 'Catch yerself hon' is all I have to say about that codology.
So as to make sure any non-'Southerners' will understand my opinion on it.

Why is it farcical. The party don't believe the country is whole because of partition.

It's frankly farcical to think of it as a big deal They aren't hiding the fact that a core part of their party policy is an end to partition and a UI.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why is it farcical. The party don't believe the country is whole because of partition.

It's frankly farcical to think of it as a big deal They aren't hiding the fact that a core part of their party policy is an end to partition and a UI.

“A core part of their party policy.” How many core parts of their party policy have we seen jettisoned as expediency dictated. There is no core SF policy except the interests of Sinn Fein.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

“A core part of their party policy.” How many core parts of their party policy have we seen jettisoned as expediency dictated. There is no core SF policy except the interests of Sinn Fein.

Gosh...how unique. A party evolves to a different opinion on policy.

I remember FF and FF were vehemently anti-divorce, abortion, same sex marriage etc etc.

Did the sinister feckers 'jettisoned' those policies for political expediency too?

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Best wait to see what happens eh?

Why would you agree to this out the gate before we have a UI?

You've become more erratic on this subject in recent days.

You're obviously spooked.

Fitz it took only two posts from me until bonnie demonstrates one of the reasons unionists would be insane to enter discussions on a UI.
Do you get it now, thanks to bonnie. Bonnie took it hook line and sinker even quicker than I anticipated.

FrancieBrady

If I were a Unionist or simply, if I knew what that coast looked like in the dead of December or January, I would be wondering why and be deeply suspicious of this bridge nonsense. Now Boris is spending millions looking at it?

It is clear to me Unionists are being placated and distracted. When the Tories spend millions doing that, it is squeaky bum time.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/boris-johnson-to-finance-study-into-northern-ireland-to-scotland-bridge-39388471.html

landofthetree

We just added 15.7 billion to the national debt via the EU covid fund plus 23-30billion from our budget deficit. Who knows what we will add next year. We are basically depending on the likes of Oxford to come up with a vaccine. Our own universities just aren't up to it.

The idea of a UI is pure fantasy.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-to-pay-over-3200-to-eu-for-every-man-woman-and-child-in-the-country-over-the-next-seven-years-39389257.html

Ireland will pay over €3,200 to the EU for every man, woman and child in the country over the next seven years, representing the personal burden of our net national contribution, the Dail heard.

Ireland will be the fifth highest net contributor in the 27, with a cost to this country of €15.7 billion over the next several years to 2027.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Gosh...how unique. A party evolves to a different opinion on policy.

I remember FF and FF were vehemently anti-divorce, abortion, same sex marriage etc etc.

Did the sinister feckers 'jettisoned' those policies for political expediency too?

In an interview I read creepy Uncle Gerry professed a love of Marx Brothers movies. It shows!

“Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

Groucho