How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

Fitz. If they were all like you it would be very hard to prevent a UI. Ironically your attitude would drive a UI while sf attitude ensures it will never happen.
So ironically your position is more threatening but I do appreciate your openness to my identity
It’s actually difficult for me to find an argument against a UI if yours was the view of the majority of nationalists.

Actually I did word the flags and anthems one wrong. If this is unification of the two countries then of course there are two anthems and two flags at play so getting rid of them all seems inevitable. Although I suppose the 26 counties could keep theirs and the devolved 6 counties could keep theirs

But here fitz it seems like not much changes in your scenario except that your 2 million tax payers take on the responsibility that 20million british tax payers are currently bankrolling. How do you feel about that?

The thing is, you are going to need to sit down and talk to Republicans/Nationalists/others to find out what they want, don't want etc.

Do you honestly believe that if you were voted into a UI tomorrow that it would be a mirror image of the Orange state? Times have moved on, absolutely no Republican that I know has any interest in copying that.

The financial aspect of reunification is an interesting one. While on one hand we have people screaming from the roof tops that the south can't afford us, on the other we have respected economists saying this would be a huge financial boost to the whole island of Ireland. Whatever happens, I imagine Britain will be paying for the north no matter what for a long time.

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

Another question fitz. If the british community ended up concentrated east of the river Bann, and there was no real appetite west of the Bann for devolution. Would you let them guys stay in the big bit and let east of the Bann have devolution.

You’ll be making Francie I’ll with this talk lol

At some point you have to stop the carving up of land because your majority has diminished. At this rate people's back gardens would be declared either a People's Republic or part of the Queen's greenway.

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

Fitz it took only two posts from me until bonnie demonstrates one of the reasons unionists would be insane to enter discussions on a UI.
Do you get it now, thanks to bonnie. Bonnie took it hook line and sinker even quicker than I anticipated.

Look it's up to your community. Progress will be made with or without you. Better to be on the inside making decisions, than on the outside screaming in.

Here's a question. What situation would you rather, some sort of devolved government in Stormont under Dublin control (exact same as now), with SF First Minister and big majority of SF MLA's. Or no devolved government, but a FG/FF led government, with the possibility of Unionists propping up a government etc?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Fitz it took only two posts from me until bonnie demonstrates one of the reasons unionists would be insane to enter discussions on a UI.
Do you get it now, thanks to bonnie. Bonnie took it hook line and sinker even quicker than I anticipated.

Your "GOTCHA" is so well hidden I can't make it out from my ivory tower.

What are you on about?

I told you many many times before, days of beligerent Unionists' like yourself being involved in anything are over. You're not worth the energy.

Do you get it yet?

The rest of us are moving on. You're divisive nonsense has no place in any future Ireland.

Fitz, you're fighting the good fight, but you'll learn soon enough that "good faith discussions" and DC have never met. Also you should know, he's afraid of fadas.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

In an interview I read creepy Uncle Gerry professed a love of Marx Brothers movies. It shows!

“Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

Groucho

Are you naïve enough about politics not to know that Groucho was pillorying all politics when he said that?

Political party's wax and wane and change direction on policy...what a shocking revelation/insight there SS.

FrancieBrady

The_Fitz wrote: »

Look it's up to your community. Progress will be made with or without you. Better to be on the inside making decisions, than on the outside screaming in.

Here's a question. What situation would you rather, some sort of devolved government in Stormont under Dublin control (exact same as now), with SF First Minister and big majority of SF MLA's. Or no devolved government, but a FG/FF led government, with the possibility of Unionists propping up a government etc?

Same thing as happened with AIA and GFA will happen...a Unionist party will engage to try and take a political lead, the other will vehemently object and then work the agreement anyway when it comes to the bottom line.

Been there seen that done. The big issue for Unionism now is that they cannot sustain opposition because so many are moderates.

jm08

landofthetree wrote: »

We just added 15.7 billion to the national debt via the EU covid fund plus 23-30billion from our budget deficit. Who knows what we will add next year. We are basically depending on the likes of Oxford to come up with a vaccine. Our own universities just aren't up to it.

The idea of a UI is pure fantasy.

But our people are. The person who is head of the Jenner Institute that is developing the vaccine is Irish - Dr Adrian Hill. His lifework has been trying to develop a vaccine for malaria and it is this work that the vaccine for Covid-19 is being developed from.



https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/coronavirus-irish-scientist-s-team-leaps-ahead-in-race-to-find-a-vaccine-1.4239978

landofthetree

jm08 wrote: »

But our people are. The person who is head of the Jenner Institute that is developing the vaccine is Irish - Dr Adrian Hill. His lifework has been trying to develop a vaccine for malaria and it is this work that the vaccine for Covid-19 is being developed from.



https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/coronavirus-irish-scientist-s-team-leaps-ahead-in-race-to-find-a-vaccine-1.4239978

Exactly. You have to leave Ireland if you want to study/work in s world class university.

FrancieBrady

landofthetree wrote: »

Exactly. You have to leave Ireland if you want to study/work in s world class university.

This is obviously not one of our areas of expertise.

But why be so self deprecating, we have made plenty of advances in other fields and for a country our size probably punch way above our weight.

There is no assurances about the Oxford breakthrough either - 9 out of 10 vaccines fail in development.

There are something like 127 different vaccines at the same stage as Oxford around the world according to reporting I read or heard.

But yeh...Ireland = bad - everywhere else = good. Such hackneyed nonsense at this stage.

landofthetree

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is obviously not one of our areas of expertise.

But why be so self deprecating, we have made plenty of advances in other fields and for a country our size probably punch way above our weight.

There is no assurances about the Oxford breakthrough either - 9 out of 10 vaccines fail in development.

There are something like 127 different vaccines at the same stage as Oxford around the world according to reporting I read or heard.

But yeh...Ireland = bad - everywhere else = good. Such hackneyed nonsense at this stage.

This is what SF tell us.

Ireland has no proper health service. They want an Irish NHS.
Poor public transport.
Primary and secondary schools aren't up to standard.
Our universities aren't up to standard.
The top rate of tax starts at €35k whereas in the UK it's £50k.
Ireland is racist as it doesn't have open borders.


SF call Ireland a failed state.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

you see Fionn there is plenty of time for that if it should ever happen. If it happened my community would have the whip hand. A minority of 1 million people who have just had their country taken of them and feel alienated by their new rulers. A few centuries ago you could have just put us down, but unfortunately for you the world will not stand by and let you do that. They will instead ask you very hard questions about why this minority are feeling so alienated

Let me be be very clear and unequivocal, Downcow. I have never espoused putting down a minority, I will never espouse putting down a minority and I take very deep offense by your comment that it is somehow unfortunate for me that it won't be allowed.

jm08

landofthetree wrote: »

Exactly. You have to leave Ireland if you want to study/work in s world class university.

The man left Ireland in the 80s. I think we all agree Ireland was a different place back then. If you read up on his background you will see that his particular focus was working on vaccines for unprofitable drugs as they are for diseases prevalent in third world countries.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why is it farcical. The party don't believe the country is whole because of partition.

It's frankly farcical to think of it as a big deal They aren't hiding the fact that a core part of their party policy is an end to partition and a UI.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

“A core part of their party policy.” How many core parts of their party policy have we seen jettisoned as expediency dictated. there is no core SF policy except the interests of Sinn Fein.

Exactly this. Right from Sunningdale (NO) to 'Sunningdale for slow learners' (YES)- AKA GFA. Plus not only that there is the SF 180 on the EU in the last 25 years.

Refusing to call the name of state by it correct name does not further any end to 'partition'. It only sounds pedantic/childish and to use a well loved Nordie word. Intransigent.

No better than the craic the DUP go on with just being pure stubborn and awkward. While NI's parents (Westminster and ROI) have to nudge along their 'problem child'. At least they are are no longer in thier room sulking!

FrancieBrady

landofthetree wrote: »

This is what SF tell us.

Ireland has no proper health service. They want an Irish NHS.
Poor public transport.
Primary and secondary schools aren't up to standard.
Our universities aren't up to standard.
The top rate of tax starts at €35k whereas in the UK it's £50k.
Ireland is racist as it doesn't have open borders.


SF call Ireland a failed state.

Did a political party in opposition to the party's you support say something mean about them?

Of course the state has failed in many things. That still doesn't mean we havent achieved things also.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Exactly this. Right from Sunningdale (NO) to 'Sunningdale for slow learners' (YES)- AKA GFA. Plus not only that there is the SF 180 on the EU in the last 25 years.

Refusing to call the name of state by it correct name does not further any end to 'partition'. It only sounds pedantic/childish and to use a well loved Nordie word. Intransigent.

No better than the craic the DUP go on with just being pure stubborn and awkward. While NI's parents (Westminster and ROI) have to nudge along their 'problem child'. At least they are are no longer in thier room sulking!

SF had nothing to do with Sunningdale. Either in negociation or attempted implementation.

That was down to the SDLP and Unionism.
And there was also significant differences.

You are falling for Seamus Mallon's bitterness at being moved aside.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SF had nothing to do with Sunningdale. Either in negociation or attempted implementation.

That was down to the SDLP and Unionism.
And there was also significant differences.

You are falling for Seamus Mallon's bitterness at being moved aside.

You see this the mask slipping as far I am concerned you know damn well there was feck all difference between Sunningdale and the GFA. Semantics as usual with the Nordies.

I always think All Nordies (and Nordies influenced people) must be great at countdown. Both Unionist and Republican. Playing with numbers 800, 400, 26, 6, 32, 1916, 1798, 1920, 1690. Or playing with words all Nordies have that off to a tee. Situation, Strategy, Intransigence and so on and so.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You see this the mask slipping as far I am concerned you know damn well there was feck all difference between Sunningdale and the GFA. Semantics as usual with the Nordies.

I always think All Nordies (and Nordies influenced people) must be great at countdown. Both Unionist and Republican. Playing with numbers 800, 400, 26, 6, 32, 1916, 1798, 1920, 1690. Or playing with words all Nordies have that off to a tee. Situation, Strategy, Intransigence and so on and so.

I posted the differences before when you went at this rubbish.

And I also pointed out that Sunningdale's failure had nothing to do with SF.

But blame them anyway.. sure they are Irish.

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

At some point you have to stop the carving up of land because your majority has diminished. At this rate people's back gardens would be declared either a People's Republic or part of the Queen's greenway.

Fitz, would you be happy conditions Nationalists have in Northern Ireland now replicated in your new Ireland united - these are the things you have to do to keep minorities happy and keep feeding the crocodiles.

• Northern Ireland is currently fully integrated into the UK but has devolution - I assume you will be happy if a Northern Ireland integrated into a united Ireland would also have devolution?
• Lots of money is pumped into Irish culture and in particular Irish language by the UK government - I assume you will be happy that this is that and lots of money is pumped into Unionist culture by the Ireland government?
• All the money thrown the West Belfast Festival to keep nationals happy, we then need thrown at orangefest to keep the new minority happy?
• Even though Northern Ireland internationally recognised as part of the UK, great flexibility is shown around national sporting teams to help keep the nationalist community content - again I assume you would say this flexibility should continue if Northern Ireland becomes internationally recognised as part of Ireland, you would be happy for some sports teams to be all Ireland but in other sports Northern Ireland have their own team?
• The same employment protections for minorities would be brought in in the new Ireland?

Now I know Fitz you have been fairly reasonable here, but I am sure you have noticed that you are a minority of one. The above list is simply a situation of what's good the goose is good for the gander. Interesting how many on here don't like the idea of fairness

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Exactly this. Right from Sunningdale (NO) to 'Sunningdale for slow learners' (YES)- AKA GFA. Plus not only that there is the SF 180 on the EU in the last 25 years.

Refusing to call the name of state by it correct name does not further any end to 'partition'. It only sounds pedantic/childish and to use a well loved Nordie word. Intransigent.

No better than the craic the DUP go on with just being pure stubborn and awkward. While NI's parents (Westminster and ROI) have to nudge along their 'problem child'. At least they are are no longer in thier room sulking!

Pedantic like our resident Unionist who flops over the "foreign country" to the South?

You're posts are getting more and more ridiculous.

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

Fitz, would you be happy conditions Nationalists have in Northern Ireland now replicated in your new Ireland united - these are the things you have to do to keep minorities happy and keep feeding the crocodiles.

• Northern Ireland is currently fully integrated into the UK but has devolution - I assume you will be happy if a Northern Ireland integrated into a united Ireland would also have devolution?
• Lots of money is pumped into Irish culture and in particular Irish language by the UK government - I assume you will be happy that this is that and lots of money is pumped into Unionist culture by the Ireland government?
• All the money thrown the West Belfast Festival to keep nationals happy, we then need thrown at orangefest to keep the new minority happy?
• Even though Northern Ireland internationally recognised as part of the UK, great flexibility is shown around national sporting teams to help keep the nationalist community content - again I assume you would say this flexibility should continue if Northern Ireland becomes internationally recognised as part of Ireland, you would be happy for some sports teams to be all Ireland but in other sports Northern Ireland have their own team?
• The same employment protections for minorities would be brought in in the new Ireland?

Now I know Fitz you have been fairly reasonable here, but I am sure you have noticed that you are a minority of one. The above list is simply a situation of what's good the goose is good for the gander. Interesting how many on here don't like the idea of fairness

You're repeating yourself now with a few of those, I've already answered them.

Of course money will be pumped into Unionist culture, why wouldn't it?

With regards to Feile an Phobail, I don't think you have a good comparison. Feile gets what, €300,000 a year? While I know that policing the 12th every year costs a minimum of around €14,000,000. Do you honestly believe that in a UI, orange parades would be banned?

Not sure what you mean regarding the UK keeping nationalists happy with their flexibility on sporting teams? I'll repeat myself here, I couldn't care less if there was still an NI soccer team. They have no relevance to me, but I know they do for others, so happy to see that continue.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Fitz, would you be happy conditions Nationalists have in Northern Ireland now replicated in your new Ireland united - these are the things you have to do to keep minorities happy and keep feeding the crocodiles.

• Northern Ireland is currently fully integrated into the UK but has devolution - I assume you will be happy if a Northern Ireland integrated into a united Ireland would also have devolution?

Why would you need devolution. That would be like the North East of England being devolved from the rest of England.

• Lots of money is pumped into Irish culture and in particular Irish language by the UK government - I assume you will be happy that this is that and lots of money is pumped into Unionist culture by the Ireland government?

I think you will find that a lot of the Irish Language funding comes from the Republic - for example, Linda Irvine's work in East Belfast is a project sponsored by Foras na Gaeilge. I'm sure the British Government will continue to pump money into promoting British culture in Northern Ireland.

• All the money thrown the West Belfast Festival to keep nationals happy, we then need thrown at orangefest to keep the new minority happy?

Isn't that Festival quite successful and a tourist attraction? I don't see funding that would be a problem bearing in mind that these type of festivals are held all over Ireland and are good for tourism.

• Even though Northern Ireland internationally recognised as part of the UK, great flexibility is shown around national sporting teams to help keep the nationalist community content - again I assume you would say this flexibility should continue if Northern Ireland becomes internationally recognised as part of Ireland, you would be happy for some sports teams to be all Ireland but in other sports Northern Ireland have their own team?

Since the breakup of the former USSR, UEFA/FIFA would prefer if there was just one team from the UK. With regard the soccer team, I'd suggest that the system pre-partition is used - i.e., keep the IFA team, based in Belfast and abolish the FAI as they are certainly not up to the task. Would you go for that DC?

The same employment protections for minorities would be brought in in the new Ireland?

Already there in our written Constitution, so not a problem.

Now I know Fitz you have been fairly reasonable here, but I am sure you have noticed that you are a minority of one. The above list is simply a situation of what's good the goose is good for the gander. Interesting how many on here don't like the idea of fairness

I don't really have an issue with any of that, but I would like you to explain why you want to keep Stormont since its such a waste of space. I would have thought that you would prefer to be involved in the decision making part of Government.

edit: Just as an aside - the Irish Government also used to fund the Ulster-Scots project which was run by John Laird (now deceased). There were a few quesetion marks about his expenses coming up and down to Dublin where it turned out that he used a taxi from Belfast to Dublin to avoid being laughed at because he was wearing a kilt. And the Irish Government put up with that ****. Also, bearing in mind, the Irish Government developed an interpretive centre at the Battle of the Boyne so that unionists could fully enjoy their ancient past.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

great flexibility is shown around national sporting teams to help keep the nationalist community content

You should be very grateful every time a nationalist represents the non-country, no-anthem, no-flag, former unionist/protestant ethno-state.

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

You're repeating yourself now with a few of those, I've already answered them.

Of course money will be pumped into Unionist culture, why wouldn't it?

With regards to Feile an Phobail, I don't think you have a good comparison. Feile gets what, €300,000 a year? While I know that policing the 12th every year costs a minimum of around €14,000,000. Do you honestly believe that in a UI, orange parades would be banned?

Not sure what you mean regarding the UK keeping nationalists happy with their flexibility on sporting teams? I'll repeat myself here, I couldn't care less if there was still an NI soccer team. They have no relevance to me, but I know they do for others, so happy to see that continue.

This is the sort of comment that is simply ridiculous. It shows a serious lack of understanding of the situation in Northern Ireland. I actually thought you were some sort of moderate nationalist that unionists could work with, but when I see you claiming that policing the 12th costs £14 million, I realise that you have a very prejudiced view. But sure why let the facts get in the way of a good story

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Why would you need devolution. That would be like the North East of England being devolved from the rest of England.

• All the money thrown the West Belfast Festival to keep nationals happy, we then need thrown at orangefest to keep the new minority happy?

Isn't that Festival quite successful and a tourist attraction? I don't see funding that would be a problem bearing in mind that these type of festivals are held all over Ireland and are good for tourism.

Since the breakup of the former USSR, UEFA/FIFA would prefer if there was just one team from the UK. With regard the soccer team, I'd suggest that the system pre-partition is used - i.e., keep the IFA team, based in Belfast and abolish the FAI as they are certainly not up to the task. Would you go for that DC?
Already there in our written Constitution, so not a problem.

edit: Just as an aside - the Irish Government also used to fund the Ulster-Scots project which was run by John Laird (now deceased). There were a few quesetion marks about his expenses coming up and down to Dublin where it turned out that he used a taxi from Belfast to Dublin to avoid being laughed at because he was wearing a kilt. And the Irish Government put up with that ****. Also, bearing in mind, the Irish Government developed an interpretive centre at the Battle of the Boyne so that unionists could fully enjoy their ancient past.

I take your points in order

I think in time areas of England like Cornwall will move towards a certain level of devolution.
But the point is that a big factor in nationalists accepting the GFA was devolution. Surely they would not deprive Unionists in a new Ireland of the stuff they wanted when they were in the UK? Surely not hypocrisy?

Yes I agree Orangefest is now a big tourist attraction and growing, but I do not trust the Irish government to support it or allow it to be rolled out across the island

Your football question is a bit like me asking you would you be happy with a British isles team replacing the five nations as long as it was based in Dublin

haha, big deal. A taxi for Lord Laird and a centre at the Boyne. The task support for Unionist culture LOL

jm08

downcow wrote: »

This is the sort of comment that is simply ridiculous. It shows a serious lack of understanding of the situation in Northern Ireland. I actually thought you were some sort of moderate nationalist that unionists could work with, but when I see you claiming that policing the 12th costs £14 million, I realise that you have a very prejudiced view. But sure why let the facts get in the way of a good story

The marching season cost £22 million in 2002 and has decreased since then to £7 million (between April & Aug 2015). From what I can see the 12th costs just under £2million now and the rest of the Marching Season about 4 or 5 million.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You should be very grateful every time a nationalist represents the non-country, no-anthem, no-flag, former unionist/protestant ethno-state.

I am very grateful for every nationalist and unionist who represents that wee country that is punching well above its weight in sport. I guess it breaks your heart every time it happens

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

The marching season cost £22 million in 2002 and has decreased since then to £7 million (between April & Aug 2015). From what I can see the 12th costs just under £2million now and the rest of the Marching Season about 4 or 5 million.

There we are now Fitz. jm08 is hardly an orangeman and he has just said that even taking his wildly inflated figures, that your figure was seven times his crazy figure.
Is there any learning and that for you Fitz, that you are so ridiculously misrepresenting my culture?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

There we are now Fitz. jm08 is hardly an orangeman and he has just said that even taking his wildly inflated figures, that your figure was seven times his crazy figure.
Is there any learning and that for you Fitz, that you are so ridiculously misrepresenting my culture?

2006 it was £14 million.

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

This is the sort of comment that is simply ridiculous. It shows a serious lack of understanding of the situation in Northern Ireland. I actually thought you were some sort of moderate nationalist that unionists could work with, but when I see you claiming that policing the 12th costs £14 million, I realise that you have a very prejudiced view. But sure why let the facts get in the way of a good story

I can assure you I don't have any sort of lack of understanding. Obviously, I didn't know the figure at the top of my head. I googled it and took it from the first story (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/policing-north-s-parades-cost-psni-almost-14m-1.1288030) - just noticed it is 2005, so very out of date.

I would be very surprised if the money put into both occasions are in any way comparable.

Do you have the figures at hand?

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

There we are now Fitz. jm08 is hardly an orangeman and he has just said that even taking his wildly inflated figures, that your figure was seven times his crazy figure.
Is there any learning and that for you Fitz, that you are so ridiculously misrepresenting my culture?

I can see you're not able for any sort of debate on this issue. Which is fine. i hope others might look forward to the option of progression so that we can all share this island as equals.