How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

I can see you're not able for any sort of debate on this issue. Which is fine. i hope others might look forward to the option of progression so that we can all share this island as equals.

No comment on the actual question fitz? It was a serious question. I have had to accept that my views are often prejudiced, but then I am not presenting myself as some sort of neutral.

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

No comment on the actual question fitz? It was a serious question. I have had to accept that my views are often prejudiced, but then I am not presenting myself as some sort of neutral.

I'm not a neutral though. Have never said I'm a neutral. I'm a Republican. A Republican who sees the benefit of making this island work for everyone. I believe that the way forward is spelling out that everyone is welcome in a new Ireland, and more importantly, making them feel welcome. I don't want what has happened in the past, to happen in the future. The only way to achieve this is dialogue.

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

I can assure you I don't have any sort of lack of understanding. Obviously, I didn't know the figure at the top of my head. I googled it and took it from the first story (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/policing-north-s-parades-cost-psni-almost-14m-1.1288030) - just noticed it is 2005, so very out of date.

I would be very surprised if the money put into both occasions are in any way comparable.

Do you have the figures at hand?

I do not have any figures Fitz. I am not sure they actually exist as normally any freedom of information questions related to this issue are asked by Republicans and therefore couched in a way to ensure they get as big a figure as possible.

I can only speak anecdotally. I attend the 12th, and the only place I see police officers are isolated ones and twos managing traffic issues.
To the best of my knowledge there is no real disorder issues anywhere related to the 12th which the police would have to manage (unless you have some figures to hand). Historically there were a few isolated places that had issues, but I think we all know that they were not issues related to the 12th, but rather were issues of community division and the 12th was used as a vehicle for Republicans to stoke up more division. I cannot think of anywhere there are currently issues.
Therefore there is no real need for any significant policing costs.

I would quite like to do a freedom of information question around policing of the 12th. It's costs and number of arrests, and the numbers that the police estimate were in attendance. I think you would find the figures would be very shocking for anybody who has listened to the propaganda. I'll have a guess. In the region of half a million people in attendance, less than one dozen arrests, and I wouldn't know where to start with costs, but if it is greater than £100,000 i.e. 20p for everyone in attendance, then I would be surprised

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

I'm not a neutral though. Have never said I'm a neutral. I'm a Republican. A Republican who sees the benefit of making this island work for everyone. I believe that the way forward is spelling out that everyone is welcome in a new Ireland, and more importantly, making them feel welcome. I don't want what has happened in the past, to happen in the future. The only way to achieve this is dialogue.

I appreciate you acknowledging the difficulties of the past, but do you accept that my community would be very nervous because what happened in the past, where the Unionist population was more or less wiped out in your country?
If you are dedicated to preventing that from happening again then that is certainly a positive

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

I do not have any figures Fitz. I am not sure they actually exist as normally any freedom of information questions related to this issue are asked by Republicans and therefore couched in a way to ensure they get as big a figure as possible.

I can only speak anecdotally. I attend the 12th, and the only place I see police officers are isolated ones and twos managing traffic issues.
To the best of my knowledge there is no real disorder issues anywhere related to the 12th which the police would have to manage (unless you have some figures to hand). Historically there were a few isolated places that had issues, but I think we all know that they were not issues related to the 12th, but rather were issues of community division and the 12th was used as a vehicle for Republicans to stoke up more division. I cannot think of anywhere there are currently issues.
Therefore there is no real need for any significant policing costs.

I would quite like to do a freedom of information question around policing of the 12th. It's costs and number of arrests, and the numbers that the police estimate were in attendance. I think you would find the figures would be very shocking for anybody who has listened to the propaganda. I'll have a guess. In the region of half a million people in attendance, less than one dozen arrests, and I wouldn't know where to start with costs, but if it is greater than £100,000 i.e. 20p for everyone in attendance, then I would be surprised

That's conspiracy theory stuff right there.

Obviously the 12th costs more than £100,000.

Cleaning costs (2018) - £21k - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45187951
Fire service costs (2015) - £78k - https://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/07/06/news/how-much-do-twelfth-bonfires-cost-the-fire-service--592445/

Thats your 100k alone give or take without taking into consideration policing and grants etc.

You have derailed the topic of debate (and I have fallen for it).

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

I appreciate you acknowledging the difficulties of the past, but do you accept that my community would be very nervous because what happened in the past, where the Unionist population was more or less wiped out in your country?
If you are dedicated to preventing that from happening again then that is certainly a positive

Of course I accept that you would be nervous. How do you think we have felt being born into a state that didn't want us?

I think you would have to search long and hard to find a Republican who wants a mirror image of the orange state as their future.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Pedantic like our resident Unionist who flops over the "foreign country" to the South?

You're posts are getting more and more ridiculous.

Explain why my post is ridiculous? It is the equivalent of an Irish soccer commentator calling Harry Kane the England 'full forward'. Bad and all as Ger Canning is even he does not do that.

Yet we are supposed to collude in a delusion that 6 counties/26 counties 'the south' 'the North of Ireland' 'this state' are somehow right and proper for public representatives to use?

RnaG are right divils for it as well. It is always - 'na Sé Chontae' (the six counties) when the text numbers are given. Excuse was told to me before was that 'Tuaisceart na hÉireann' could mean all of the North of Ireland (Ulster). Very convenient excuse As if it would kill them to put stát/state before it?

It is pure codology I don't like it. A spade is called a spade, and a shovel a shovel imo. It only annoys people and normalises contrariness

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I posted the differences before when you went at this rubbish.

And I also pointed out that Sunningdale's failure had nothing to do with SF.

But blame them anyway.. sure they are Irish.

Yes I posted them as well. Francie can’t go there is to do so would mean the ira failed

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

That's conspiracy theory stuff right there.

Obviously the 12th costs more than £100,000.

Cleaning costs (2018) - £21k - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45187951
Fire service costs (2015) - £78k - https://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/07/06/news/how-much-do-twelfth-bonfires-cost-the-fire-service--592445/

Thats your 100k alone give or take without taking into consideration policing and grants etc.

You have derailed the topic of debate (and I have fallen for it).

We were talking about policing costs

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

That's conspiracy theory stuff right there.

Obviously the 12th costs more than £100,000.

Cleaning costs (2018) - £21k - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45187951
Fire service costs (2015) - £78k - https://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/07/06/news/how-much-do-twelfth-bonfires-cost-the-fire-service--592445/

Thats your 100k alone give or take without taking into consideration policing and grants etc.

You have derailed the topic of debate (and I have fallen for it).

I simply responded to you claiming the twelfth cost £14,000,000 to police.
I you make rediculous posts people will react

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I simply responded to you claiming the twelfth cost £14,000,000 to police.
I you make rediculous posts people will react

Your argument that the cost of policing the 12th has fallen from £14m to £100k.....because you feel it in your waters is much more ridiculous Downcow. At least we can state with confidence that at least the £14m figure was accurate at SOME point.

The most recent numbers I can lay my hands on with a very rudimentary search put the Twadell protest alone at £22m of policing costs.

I suppose you'll claim that expense is nothing to do with the 12th though....

I have no fundamental issue with Orangeism and the parades that go with it (beyond finding it a bit odd), and I can see potential for positive from the marching band scene, but when people's lasting memories are things like Drumcree, Twadell, circling in front of chapels playing songs with obvious sectarian intent (despite people like you insisting they were just covering the Beach Boys purely coincidentally), or urinating on a chapel.....perhaps the responsibility for normalising the Orange and increasing broader acceptance at least partially lies on your side of the fence.

Scoondal

Reunification ?
When was Ireland unified before now ?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Your argument that the cost of policing the 12th has fallen from £14m to £100k.....because you feel it in your waters is much more ridiculous Downcow. At least we can state with confidence that at least the £14m figure was accurate at SOME point.

The most recent numbers I can lay my hands on with a very rudimentary search put the Twadell protest alone at £22m of policing costs.

I suppose you'll claim that expense is nothing to do with the 12th though....

I have no fundamental issue with Orangeism and the parades that go with it (beyond finding it a bit odd), and I can see potential for positive from the marching band scene, but when people's lasting memories are things like Drumcree, Twadell, circling in front of chapels playing songs with obvious sectarian intent (despite people like you insisting they were just covering the Beach Boys purely coincidentally), or urinating on a chapel.....perhaps the responsibility for normalising the Orange and increasing broader acceptance at least partially lies on your side of the fence.

Here is more of the problem. You guys cannot approach anything with a level head and a little fairness and integrity.
Firstly most of your post refers to another time. I have been asking for a long time for issues during past year, before covid tbf, and you keep going away back to drumcree and twadell If you want to examine those historic events I am happy to. Are you honestly saying one side caused either of those issues? It takes two to tango and they were both certainly a dance between two communities in conflict. Or do you think otherwise?

Then you come up with isolated nonsense. I could do this also and list stuff that happened at your events. You choose one and try me? You then try to suggest that these isolated incidents mean that a culture that has at least 3 million attending street festivals every year is rotten because a person urinates where they should not.

You still don’t understand that most people have neither the interest or power to normalise a 300 year old organisation. I know no 300 year old org that is normal in today’s measure. Maybe you’ll tell me one?

This is what you don’t get. The OO are the organisers of a minority of parades and those they do organise, they are a small minority of those who attend and are not the attraction for the spectators. The oo is archaic and I don’t believe will modernise enough to survive long term (but will certainly be around into next century and beyond).
So don’t constrain my culture to OO.
And be honest with me. Do you accept that the Ira/sf set out to use opposition to my culture as a new campaign to replace the armed campaign? And if you don’t, why do you think republican leaders are recorded saying such privately?

downcow

Interesting letter leaked from Stormont today will put a lie to the posters on here blaming unionists for lack of coordination between ni and Roi
I have been laughed at for claiming all along that Roi are cruising on with little consultation or interest in coordination around covid on the island. This letter will prove it. Can’t wait to see your spin.
You delivered covid to ni through your reckless non coordination and it seems it’s continuing.

jh79

downcow wrote: »

Interesting letter leaked from Stormont today will put a lie to the posters on here blaming unionists for lack of coordination between ni and Roi
I have been laughed at for claiming all along that Roi are cruising on with little consultation or interest in coordination around covid on the island. This letter will prove it. Can’t wait to see your spin.
You delivered covid to ni through your reckless non coordination and it seems it’s continuing.

Have you a link? Couldn't find anything on google.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Here is more of the problem. You guys cannot approach anything with a level head and a little fairness and integrity.
Firstly most of your post refers to another time. I have been asking for a long time for issues during past year, before covid tbf, and you keep going away back to drumcree and twadell If you want to examine those historic events I am happy to. Are you honestly saying one side caused either of those issues? It takes two to tango and they were both certainly a dance between two communities in conflict. Or do you think otherwise?

Then you come up with isolated nonsense. I could do this also and list stuff that happened at your events. You choose one and try me? You then try to suggest that these isolated incidents mean that a culture that has at least 3 million attending street festivals every year is rotten because a person urinates where they should not.

You still don’t understand that most people have neither the interest or power to normalise a 300 year old organisation. I know no 300 year old org that is normal in today’s measure. Maybe you’ll tell me one?

This is what you don’t get. The OO are the organisers of a minority of parades and those they do organise, they are a small minority of those who attend and are not the attraction for the spectators. The oo is archaic and I don’t believe will modernise enough to survive long term (but will certainly be around into next century and beyond).
So don’t constrain my culture to OO.
And be honest with me. Do you accept that the Ira/sf set out to use opposition to my culture as a new campaign to replace the armed campaign? And if you don’t, why do you think republican leaders are recorded saying such privately?

The neck on you to talk about level headedness, fairness and integrity only to follow up with a post referring to Irish history and culture as a bunch of chieftains raping each others wives....

Also, once more you demonstrate your total lack of reading comprehension in your desperate rush to take offense and blame SF for everything.

You'll perhaps try reading it again and note where I said I had no real issue with Orangeism, where I said that I can see potential positive in marching bands, and you'll also note at no point did I describe your culture as rotten.

I'd also highlight that I stated that those, 'isolated incidents' form a significant part of my lasting memory, so of course they're historic events. That was followed up by saying that you should accept at least PARTIAL responsibility for it....and you complain that I'm blaming it all on one side?

The issue with your, 'name something recent' is that you jump around on what you consider connected to the 12th/Orangeism depending on how it suits your argument. You were previously provided with examples, which you dismissed as, 'isolated incidents'. You tried to claim that incidents at the 11th night bonfires were nothing to do with Orangeism and the 12th, and also tried to claim that issues within bands were nothing to do with Orangeism despite those bands being hired by and marching with the OO.....

Fionn1952

jh79 wrote: »

Have you a link? Couldn't find anything on google.

It's grand, as per usual a gross exaggeration from Downcow. Ironically the letter is mostly Robin Swann arguing for MORE cooperation between North and South.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-53520066

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Interesting letter leaked from Stormont today will put a lie to the posters on here blaming unionists for lack of coordination between ni and Roi
I have been laughed at for claiming all along that Roi are cruising on with little consultation or interest in coordination around covid on the island. This letter will prove it. Can’t wait to see your spin.
You delivered covid to ni through your reckless non coordination and it seems it’s continuing.

The macabre competition returns.

Stick to trying to win at football there are real lives at stake here.

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

I simply responded to you claiming the twelfth cost £14,000,000 to police.
I you make rediculous posts people will react

Hardly ridiculous when I sent you the link of where I got the figure from. The figure was from 14/15 years ago.

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

Interesting letter leaked from Stormont today will put a lie to the posters on here blaming unionists for lack of coordination between ni and Roi
I have been laughed at for claiming all along that Roi are cruising on with little consultation or interest in coordination around covid on the island. This letter will prove it. Can’t wait to see your spin.
You delivered covid to ni through your reckless non coordination and it seems it’s continuing.

I'd imagine people are laughing at you for an awful lot more than making up lies that the south delivered Covid to the north.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The neck on you to talk about level headedness, fairness and integrity only to follow up with a post referring to Irish history and culture as a bunch of chieftains raping each others wives....

Also, once more you demonstrate your total lack of reading comprehension in your desperate rush to take offense and blame SF for everything.

You'll perhaps try reading it again and note where I said I had no real issue with Orangeism, where I said that I can see potential positive in marching bands, and you'll also note at no point did I describe your culture as rotten.

I'd also highlight that I stated that those, 'isolated incidents' form a significant part of my lasting memory, so of course they're historic events. That was followed up by saying that you should accept at least PARTIAL responsibility for it....and you complain that I'm blaming it all on one side?

The issue with your, 'name something recent' is that you jump around on what you consider connected to the 12th/Orangeism depending on how it suits your argument. You were previously provided with examples, which you dismissed as, 'isolated incidents'. You tried to claim that incidents at the 11th night bonfires were nothing to do with Orangeism and the 12th, and also tried to claim that issues within bands were nothing to do with Orangeism despite those bands being hired by and marching with the OO.....

This post of yours is a great example of how I think you need to be little more levelheaded.
In the post you were replying to, I categorically said that you cannot blame any one side for these issues - and you reply by saying that I blame Sinn Fein on everything
you refer to these historic incidences as having an impact on you. Of course they did, and I acknowledge that and am sorry that is the case. But they are historic.
I would be very sure that what eg the GAA got up to in my town had a far greater lasting memory and indeed impact on me.

You say I jump about in my requests for something recent.
Well let me be clear with you. Some time ago I asked over and over again for someone to give me examples of issues at band parades within the past 12 months. Why do you not have a go at answering this. It should be very very easy as there would be over 1000 parades to choose from annually, so even one small issue reported at every 10 parades would be 100 issues - I'd accept half a dozen. And you say I am not clear with my parameters. So let's leave the Orange order out of it because I agree with you they are archaic, and let's focus on the loyalist youth culture i.e. band parades. Several of these take place every Friday and Saturday night across the province, attended by very large numbers of young adults, plenty of drink taken, and plenty of opportunity to get into trouble. If these are not wonderfully well disciplined events then you should have no difficulty finding some stuff. So over to you.

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

Hardly ridiculous when I sent you the link of where I got the figure from. The figure was from 14/15 years ago.

You are still doing it. It was not the twelfth. Even some of the hardened Republicans on here were able to point out that it was a gross exaggeration

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

I'd imagine people are laughing at you for an awful lot more than making up lies that the south delivered Covid to the north.

You will find on here that that is the default tactic of Republicans when I present facts they do not like? They either club up and deny the obvious, or they just have a good laugh.

Here are the facts of how the first case arrived in Northern Ireland - care to comment on your accusation that I was making up lies?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51665704

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You will find on here that that is the default tactic of Republicans when I present facts they do not like? They either club up and deny the obvious, or they just have a good laugh.

Here are the facts of how the first case arrived in Northern Ireland - care to comment on your accusation that I was making up lies?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51665704

Dear me...you have it bad downcow. Real bad.

I suppose next you will be telling us it was on purpose. :rolleyes:

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Dear me...you have it bad downcow. Real bad.

I suppose next you will be telling us it was on purpose. :rolleyes:

Absolutely not. Simply stating facts.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Here are the facts of how the first case arrived in Northern Ireland - care to comment on your accusation that I was making up lies?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51665704

Was that woman,not a nurse,from newry


Who flew in/out of dublin to milan?

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Was that woman,not a nurse,from newry


Who flew in/out of dublin to milan?

Yes she was...at a time when Arlene and downcow were defending the herd immunity brainfart from Westminster.

It doesn't get much stranger tbh.

The_Fitz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Was that woman,not a nurse,from newry


Who flew in/out of dublin to milan?

Was just about to say this

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Some time ago I asked over and over again for someone to give me examples of issues at band parades within the past 12 months.

There are few issues these days because you're not allowed to march where you're not wanted. The OO/Bands deserve no credit for this because I've little doubt they'd still be marching where they could piss-off the locals if they could.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

There are few issues these days because you're not allowed to march where you're not wanted. The OO/Bands deserve no credit for this because I've little doubt they'd still be marching where they could piss-off the locals if they could.

They are still wrangling with the Parades commission and tried to use the DUP's nasty little deal with the Tories to get back marching rights where they were not wanted.