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How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

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  • Options
    #2792
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    jm08 wrote: »
    Is that the incident that Micky Harte, manager of the Tyrone team apologised immediately for and Tyrone GAA invited Arlene to a game afterwards which she went to?


    You might enjoy this interview DC from Off the Ball about it where the Sunday Times reporter describes a trip he made as NI football correspondent on a trip to Latvia!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqBf9Hfl7VA

    Edit: According to this newspaper report, no offences were committed:



    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/no-offences-over-tyrone-gaa-team-bus-sectarian-singing-row-video-say-police-38327082.html

    They are starting a conversation ni supporters had 20 years ago. But at least they are starting.
    It is a bit patronising to listen to. And the laugh is they don’t even know they are patronising.
    They are also desperately prejudiced. But again they don’t know it and seem like nice guys


  • Options
    #2793
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    downcow wrote: »
    I am interested in what discipline they received for their sectarian abuse of young girls. Not that interested in someone else apologising when he wasn’t involved

    Or maybe you are claiming they didn’t abuse the young girls


    The PSNI got a complaint which they investigated and found that they had not committed any crime (so no punishment).


    Who do you think should have apologised for the team? Surely the boss of the team is the obvious person.


    I find it hard to hear any abuse on that clip, so I doubt if the girls heard anything bearing in mind that they were playing music themselves.


    Unless you are claiming that ''Come Out, Ye Black and Tans'' is sectarian (which it isn't).


  • Options
    #2794
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    downcow wrote: »
    They are starting a conversation ni supporters had 20 years ago. But at least they are starting.
    It is a bit patronising to listen to. And the laugh is they don’t even know they are patronising.
    They are also desperately prejudiced. But again they don’t know it and seem like nice guys


    What is patronising about the conversation?


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    #2795
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    downcow wrote: »
    Thanks for that
    I had listened to it before, but I took the time there to listen to almost one hour of it.
    Sound like two really nice people who done their best to get under the skin.
    Really interesting and accurate in places, but very very naïve in other places.
    I don't blame them for this, and I guess it is only to be expected, but they headed for the most controversial bonfire they could find. There are thousands bonfires, and certainly hundreds of big community ones. There is an incredible range of what is accepted at these bonfires. This is inevitable because they are completely independent of the orange or anyone else for that matter - sometimes local community groups organise them.
    I completely understand how they felt, but you know the most of what we fear is inside ourselves. If I went tonight to a big event in the Fellons club I would feel exactly how they felt a fire.
    Indeed we used to do bus tours of Belfast with cross community groups. In the debrief it was always very interesting to hear how, as we criss-cross the peace line, one or our other community felt relieved while the other felt fear coming on.
    I think it would have been really helpful for their documentary if they had spoken to people from Northern Ireland e.g. band members.
    I think they had some sense of their own prejudice, but I am not sure they realised how much it was impacting their reporting. Just an example of this was when they said that the English guy had given the reason for attending the twelth was racism - he was clearly racist, but to the best of my knowledge he did not give that as a reason for coming to the 12th.
    I know that Junkyard has just expressed his dislike of me posting a tiktok video, but the very worst expressions 'we hate Catholics' song that they played from the fire - I can post you a tiktok video taken in my local Chinese takeaway within one of me being in it, which shows in Packed to the Rafters on a Saturday night doing just the opposite of what they recorded.
    I don't think there is a community and the world, that you couldn't go and find the most extreme form of drunken behaviour and it sound very shocking in the clear light of day.
    But I am not walking away from what they recorded. I wish the small minority of fires who behave like this would clean up their act - but actually all they are doing is demonstrating how the division in this place has made them sectarian. Just the same as the Tyrone senior GAA team when they, as grown men, chant IRA at a group of young Unionist girls


    So, all you can say is that they went to the wrong bonfire and spoke the wrong people! Oh, and its their own fault that they felt intimidated! Nothing to do with them seeing the Irish tricolour, EU flag on top of the bonfire or the KAT signs!


    The first lady they spoke to was interesting when she said that in the past the bonfires were not as big and there were a lot more around the place. This building of monstrosities seems to be a recent addition to Orange cultural expression.


    John Creedon, in his tv documentary (as a guest of the OO), also felt a bit uneasy about being at a parade. I must try and dig it out for you.


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    #2796
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    downcow wrote: »
    I am interested in what discipline they received for their sectarian abuse of young girls. Not that interested in someone else apologising when he wasn’t involved

    Or maybe you are claiming they didn’t abuse the young girls

    Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross


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    #2797
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    jm08 wrote: »
    The man is anti EU because of its liberal values. His catholic conservatisism is relevant.



    So, do you think that it would have been better if Ireland suffered as badly as Italy and France with Covid as Ireland wouldn't have to pay as much money into the EU?

    McGuirk is a Conservative, not sure he is a Catholic Conservative like David Quinn is ?

    Even he is, it's irrelevant as to the facts of the deal


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    #2798
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    jm08 wrote: »
    The PSNI got a complaint which they investigated and found that they had not committed any crime (so no punishment).


    Who do you think should have apologised for the team? Surely the boss of the team is the obvious person.


    I find it hard to hear any abuse on that clip, so I doubt if the girls heard anything bearing in mind that they were playing music themselves.


    Unless you are claiming that ''Come Out, Ye Black and Tans'' is sectarian (which it isn't).

    This is another example of republican blinkers.
    What do you think should and would have happened if the Northern Ireland football team had sung the sash and shout Uvf from the team bus at a young catholic girls band?
    You’re response thus far is dire but sadly not surprising


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    #2799
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    jm08 wrote: »
    So, all you can say is that they went to the wrong bonfire and spoke the wrong people! Oh, and its their own fault that they felt intimidated! Nothing to do with them seeing the Irish tricolour, EU flag on top of the bonfire or the KAT signs!


    The first lady they spoke to was interesting when she said that in the past the bonfires were not as big and there were a lot more around the place. This building of monstrosities seems to be a recent addition to Orange cultural expression.


    John Creedon, in his tv documentary (as a guest of the OO), also felt a bit uneasy about being at a parade. I must try and dig it out for you.

    You really have a problem reading my posts from your very prejudiced position.
    I did not deny that there are issues a minority of bonfires.
    And your prejudice leads you to hear stuff she didn’t say either ie that they saw KAT signs on the bonfire. Where did you hear this? I think what you mean is you would rather she had seen KAT signs on the fire - care to retract that?

    As for size of fires. You still seem to be stuck in this ‘things must stay the same’, this is why you can’t move your opinion on anything.
    I have said many times that our culture evolves over time.
    There used to be 1,000s of bonefires but they were in the middle of the road at the end of every street As road surfaces changed these fires were causing serious damage. Hence streets and communities came together and moved to areas of open usually waste ground to combine their efforts. Of course you now have a problem with that.
    What is wrong with combining maybe 100 fires into one. They are very impressive. Just more work is needed to clean up the last few of sectarian banners and flags


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    #2800
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    This is another example of republican blinkers.
    What do you think should and would have happened if the Northern Ireland football team had sung the sash and shout Uvf from the team bus at a young catholic girls band?
    You’re response thus far is dire but sadly not surprising

    Have you any data on punishments handed out for taunting?

    This is what the OO have been standing over for decades...this is what the Parades Commission was specifically set up to stop.


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    #2801
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross Holy Cross

    Oh dear! The default republican strategy. Look back 20 years. I refer to a GAA county teams sectarian abuse of young girls THIS YEAR and from the TEAM BUS. Bonnie needs to trawl back 20 years. We need to start deal with today and being honest about which community continues to blame the other and won’t look at itself.

    If you want to talk the past then you really need to realise that all those issues Holy Cross, Drumcree, gaa wolf tones riots, etc are because we live in a divided society. Each community looks at all those events very differently. Let’s move forward


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    #2802
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    downcow wrote: »
    Let’s move forward


    Is the orange order whole existance about remembering something,what happened 350 odd years ago


    :pac:


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    #2803
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Is the orange order whole existance about remembering something,what happened 350 odd years ago


    :pac:

    It's you and your mates who are obsessed with events that happened hundreds of years ago. It's about time you stopped the self pitying whinging,the world has moved on from your 'woe,woe and thrice woe' whining with massive chips on your shoulders.


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    #2804
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    It's you and your mates who are obsessed with events that happened hundreds of years ago. It's about time you stopped the self pitying whinging,the world has moved on from your 'woe,woe and thrice woe' whining with massive chips on your shoulders.

    Nah mate.....seems hypocritical for orangemen to demand all and sundry move on....while there entire culture revolves around something that happened 350 years ago



    No amount of foaming at mouth and insulting people,and calling them, self pitying whingers with chip on shoulders will change this


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    #2805
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    McGuirk is a Conservative, not sure he is a Catholic Conservative like David Quinn is ?

    Even he is, it's irrelevant as to the facts of the deal


    The magazine that he edits, Gript.ie is funded by the Life Institute which was founded by Youth Defence founder Niamh Uí Bhriain. Worth remembering that the racist Justin Barrett left Youth Defence because it was getting too extreme!


    And yes, it is relevant as you know what their agenda is.


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    #2806
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Nah mate.....seems hypocritical for orangemen to demand all and sundry move on....while there entire culture revolves around something that happened 350 years ago

    It was me suggested move forward and I am not an Orangeman so don’t know what you’re talking about


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    #2807
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    downcow wrote: »
    Oh dear! The default republican strategy. Look back 20 years. I refer to a GAA county teams sectarian abuse of young girls THIS YEAR and from the TEAM BUS. Bonnie needs to trawl back 20 years. We need to start deal with today and being honest about which community continues to blame the other and won’t look at itself.

    If you want to talk the past then you really need to realise that all those issues Holy Cross, Drumcree, gaa wolf tones riots, etc are because we live in a divided society. Each community looks at all those events very differently. Let’s move forward

    Yes, and loyalism has been as good as gold ever since.

    I'm assuming you obviously condoned the actions of those loyalists against those school kids so? Otherwise you wouldn't have jumped on that post so quickly.

    Catch yourself on.

    If we've to move forward I guess the anachronism that is the OO needs to be wound down.

    In fact, no one should ever mention anything from the past again. Sounds like an idea yeah?

    Which will be nice actually, means, every 4 years we won't be subjected to Armstrong's goal against Spain for the billionth time.


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    #2808
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    downcow wrote: »
    It was me suggested move forward and I am not an Orangeman so don’t know what you’re talking about

    Look at that bit of wiggle room you have yourself.

    You're ridiculous.


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    #2809
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Yes, and loyalism has been as good as gold ever since.

    I'm assuming you obviously condoned the actions of those loyalists against those school kids so? Otherwise you wouldn't have jumped on that post so quickly.

    Catch yourself on.

    If we've to move forward I guess the anachronism that is the OO needs to be wound down.

    In fact, no one should ever mention anything from the past again. Sounds like an idea yeah?

    Which will be nice actually, means, every 4 years we won't be subjected to Armstrong's goal against Spain for the billionth time.
    my goodness, your bitterness runs deep. Even the Gerry Armstrong goal upsets you. You know that we may be meeting soon in a decider to go to Europe, you will be a nervous wreck haha (it is ironic as he is a Catholic nationalist - whose current role is to try and stop ROI poaching Catholic players from his beloved Northern Ireland)

    I think you completely misread the impact that the OO holds in the unionist community. It is really not what we think about every day. If you take it away in the morning we will not all suddenly become Nationalists and want our streets named an Irish.

    .... And you assume I condone the actions of the loyalists against those schoolkids. No I did not condone the, but I also understood that the situation was a very complex.
    Do you condone the initial attack on the Protestant which kicked off. Do you condone those parents exposing their children to a traumatising situation, just because the parents wanted to insist on using that gate and would not use the other gate - I know which gate the kids wanted to use that was not the one their parents were dragging them through.


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    #2810
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Just aswell i never said you were an orangeman then isnt it?

    Well your post did not make much sense then, because it was in reference to be suggesting we talk about the present and future - and you laughed at such an idea coming from the orange


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    #2811
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    It is incredible when you think about it. Within the last year we have had Republican sports people from this island getting involved in a range of sectarian, nasty, goes at my community.
    There was
    the boxer who had a song about the IRA played at his world championship bout
    there was the international footballer who pictured himself wearing a balaclava teaching history to his kids
    there was the county GAA team who shouted sectarian abuse a group of young unionist girls.

    This is all present, current, this year. It is a disgrace the behaviour of some in your community, and in particular those that should be role models.

    How many Republicans on here will actually have the integrity to say that the above behaviour is disgraceful - and these are just the first three that come to my mind - we also have my local GAA club supporters racially abusing a black player from the sidelines


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    #2812
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Meh.....your claiming i was refering to yous,when i wasnt



    But each to their own.....i guess yous just move goalposts again,like your lil meltdown after being shown the GAA wasnt a sectarian organisation.......get some fresh air kid

    I think you are losing it Blaaz :-)


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    #2813
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You see, my community recognised we had a problem with sectarianism, and we have worked over the last 20- 30 years on it. The Northern Ireland football team were one of the leaders in creating change.
    The great difficulty now which I see over again on here is that most nationalists seem to think there is no sectarianism in their community, in their sports, in their display of identity. It is very hard to fix a problem when you don't even recognise you have problem. It's like an alcoholic who thinks they are just drinking normally.
    Your community has played victims so long that it now cannot bring itself to the accept its sectarianism. This problem is most pronounced those that support the IRA
    I don't know the answer


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    #2814
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    downcow wrote: »
    You really have a problem reading my posts from your very prejudiced position.
    I did not deny that there are issues a minority of bonfires.
    And your prejudice leads you to hear stuff she didn’t say either ie that they saw KAT signs on the bonfire. Where did you hear this? I think what you mean is you would rather she had seen KAT signs on the fire - care to retract that?


    She saw the tricolour and the EU flag on a bonfire. She heard chants of ''we hate catholics'' (also heard on their tape).

    As for size of fires. You still seem to be stuck in this ‘things must stay the same’, this is why you can’t move your opinion on anything.
    I have said many times that our culture evolves over time.


    Those bonfires are downright dangerous, so they are not evolving in a good way.

    There used to be 1,000s of bonefires but they were in the middle of the road at the end of every street As road surfaces changed these fires were causing serious damage. Hence streets and communities came together and moved to areas of open usually waste ground to combine their efforts. Of course you now have a problem with that.


    Since when was anyone worried about damage? Fire fighters have to douse houses with water so that they don't go up in smoke! In the rest of the world, you can't burn a bit of rubbish in your back garden because it damages the environment, but there is no issue with loyalists setting fire to Northern Ireland.




    What is wrong with combining maybe 100 fires into one. They are very impressive. Just more work is needed to clean up the last few of sectarian banners and flags


    They are just dangerous. Are you going to keep the ''We hate catholics chanting''?


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    #2815
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    downcow wrote: »
    there was the county GAA team who shouted sectarian abuse a group of young unionist girls.


    Thats a lie.

    We also have my local GAA club supporters racially abusing a black player from the sidelines


    Link please.


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    #2816
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    jm08 wrote: »
    She saw the tricolour and the EU flag on a bonfire. She heard chants of ''we hate catholics'' (also heard on their tape).

    Those bonfires are downright dangerous, so they are not evolving in a good way.

    Since when was anyone worried about damage? Fire fighters have to douse houses with water so that they don't go up in smoke! In the rest of the world, you can't burn a bit of rubbish in your back garden because it damages the environment, but there is no issue with loyalists setting fire to Northern Ireland.


    They are just dangerous. Are you going to keep the ''We hate catholics chanting''?

    JM08, why do you misrepresent stuff and then not admit it. You said that she saw a KAT signed on a bonfire, when she clearly did not

    As for these highly dangerous fires. Hundreds of fires, thousands of people, lots of locations, decades of fun - can you tell me of one single injury. It is quite remarkable how people keep so safe.
    A fair bit of my work is in health & safety and risk assessing. The most basic and important statistic when risk assessing is to look at previous injuries. On that basis it would be very difficult for you to describe these events as highly dangerous - certainly not as dangerous as your average game of football.

    The truth really is that you detest them. You pick the worst of them and try and convince people that this is representative of what goes on. One of the main fires in my location is Kilkeel. I have not googled it yet, but have a little look, I am sure you will find it is more representative of what actually happens on the 11th night - not perfect, but more representative


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    #2817
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    jm08 wrote: »
    Thats a lie.





    Link please.

    I do get a bit fed up replying with facts and links for you to try and sidestep them but here goes again.

    I could have picked other links but this one seems to prove that even the GAA accept that something needed apologised for
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-48911306

    I could have give you a media link about the racism by Kilcoo GAA, but this link is much more humorous if not concerning, to see the racist attitudes of those posting
    http://www.hoganstand.com/county/down/forum/details/79495?PageNumber=1

    But sure none of the above happened. Let's bury our heads in the sand and blame the Unionists for everything.


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    #2818
    timthumbni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    downcow wrote: »
    I do get a bit fed up replying with facts and links for you to try and sidestep them but here goes again.

    I could have picked other links but this one seems to prove that even the GAA accept that something needed apologised for
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-48911306

    I could have give you a media link about the racism by Kilcoo GAA, but this link is much more humorous if not concerning, to see the racist attitudes of those posting
    http://www.hoganstand.com/county/down/forum/details/79495?PageNumber=1

    But sure none of the above happened. Let's bury our heads in the sand and blame the Unionists for everything.

    Unfortunately I have experience of Tyrone GAA supporters in the past getting off their buses in the town whilst singing that lovely traditional ditty “ooh aaah up the ra“ on a Sunday night. Most were wearing those ridiculous straw hats too. An elderly guy I know who is a big gaa fan has nothing good to say about Tyrone GAA fans. The bar I drank in would give them their own wee area away out of the road of the decent regular customers as they were in the most part drunken buffoons. Though catholic owned it had a mixed clientel and the owner always warned them when they came in to cut out any sectarian nonsense or they would be out.

    Of course some wouldn’t listen and were turfed out showing themselves up as the sectarian fools they were. The owner used to say that 99% of the people barred from his pub were the Tyrone gaa Sunday night crowd.


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    #2819
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    downcow wrote: »
    I do get a bit fed up replying with facts and links for you to try and sidestep them but here goes again.

    I could have picked other links but this one seems to prove that even the GAA accept that something needed apologised for
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-48911306



    And do you know what that something was?

    I could have give you a media link about the racism by Kilcoo GAA, but this link is much more humorous if not concerning, to see the racist attitudes of those posting
    http://www.hoganstand.com/county/down/forum/details/79495?PageNumber=1

    But sure none of the above happened. Let's bury our heads in the sand and blame the Unionists for everything.


    The GAA didn't bury its head in the sand:

    Cunningham was racially abused during an Ulster club final against Down champions Kilcoo in December 2012 - after a complaint the Ulster Council banned one Kilcoo supporter for life and handed a four-month ban to Kilcoo player Aidan Branagan.


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    #2820
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,622 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    downcow wrote: »
    I do get a bit fed up replying with facts and links for you to try and sidestep them but here goes again.

    I could have picked other links but this one seems to prove that even the GAA accept that something needed apologised for
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-48911306

    I could have give you a media link about the racism by Kilcoo GAA, but this link is much more humorous if not concerning, to see the racist attitudes of those posting
    http://www.hoganstand.com/county/down/forum/details/79495?PageNumber=1

    But sure none of the above happened. Let's bury our heads in the sand and blame the Unionists for everything.

    Is that a post from 2012 you're giving as evidence while you dismissed evidence from 2018 for being outdated, Downcow?!


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    #2821
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    downcow wrote: »
    JM08, why do you misrepresent stuff and then not admit it. You said that she saw a KAT signed on a bonfire, when she clearly did not


    While she might not have seen the KAT signs lets not pretend they don't appear on bonfires. I see you seem to have glossed over the ''I hate catholic'' chants which can be heard on the podcast.

    As for these highly dangerous fires. Hundreds of fires, thousands of people, lots of locations, decades of fun - can you tell me of one single injury. It is quite remarkable how people keep so safe.


    So, you are not an environmental officer? I was a bit more concerned as to why the firebrigade is there pouring water on nearby houses so that people's homes don't go up in smoke.


    A fair bit of my work is in health & safety and risk assessing. The most basic and important statistic when risk assessing is to look at previous injuries. On that basis it would be very difficult for you to describe these events as highly dangerous - certainly not as dangerous as your average game of football.


    My concern is not for the safety of the ''I hate catholic'' chanters.


    The truth really is that you detest them. You pick the worst of them and try and convince people that this is representative of what goes on. One of the main fires in my location is Kilkeel. I have not googled it yet, but have a little look, I am sure you will find it is more representative of what actually happens on the 11th night - not perfect, but more representative


    The bonfire that they went to is in the heart of Belfast. They said there were 1000s there. And you are trying to claim that it isn't representative?


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