How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

timthumbni

Bambi wrote: »

Did the GAA ever have ban on people joining because of their religion?

How about the Orange Order on that front?

Hmmm. A Protestant religious grouping only accepting protestants. I’m shocked. Has the Catholic Church had many Protestant popes, or Muslim priests? Because that’s the ridiculous direction you are heading down there.

The gaa did have a ban on people due to their occupation though. That’s absolute discrimination right there. And very weird for a so called sporting organisation. Also allowing teams to name themselves after terrorists. Hardly welcoming for any unionist or Protestant who would like a game. Though that’s the point isn’t it.

timthumbni

timthumbni wrote: »

Hmmm. A Protestant religious grouping only accepting protestants. I’m shocked. Has the Catholic Church had many Protestant popes, or Muslim priests? Because that’s the ridiculous direction you are heading down there.

The gaa did have a ban on people due to their occupation though. That’s absolute discrimination right there. And very weird for a so called sporting organisation. Also allowing teams to name themselves after terrorists. Hardly welcoming for any unionist or Protestant who would like a game. Though that’s the point isn’t it.

Is it true,you can be kicked out of orange order for marrying a catholic,but not for killing one?

timthumbni

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it true,you can be kicked out of orange order for marrying a catholic,but not for killing one?

No idea. I know a guy from a local orange lodge who is married to a catholic and he hasn’t been kicked out as he walks every year in the 12th. The wife is always there to support him too. Country twelfths are a very relaxed affair all around. A chance to meet up with friends and have a bit of craic and a lot of beers.

I assume the AOH parades are similar. I would disagree with a lot of their beliefs but I wouldn’t go out of my way to be offended by their parades. I still manage to get my milk and bread and don’t mope about trying to be offended like certain others.

jm08

timthumbni wrote: »

Hmmm. A Protestant religious grouping only accepting protestants. I’m shocked. Has the Catholic Church had many Protestant popes, or Muslim priests? Because that’s the ridiculous direction you are heading down there.

The OO / AOH are not comparable to religious institutions like Church of Ireland, or Roman Catholic Church.

The gaa did have a ban on people due to their occupation though.

No, it didn't. Plenty of Gardai, Irish Defence Force Personnel, even US Army play Gaelic games and the GAA doesn't have any problem with their occupations.

That’s absolute discrimination right there. And very weird for a so called sporting organisation.

Not so weird when you realise that the British Army drove into Croke Park and shot indiscrimnately into the crowd during a football match, killing 14 people including a player. You may have heard of the Hogan Stand in Croke Park - well thats named after the Tipperary player who was shot dead on the pitch while playing a match by the Black and Tans

Also allowing teams to name themselves after terrorists. Hardly welcoming for any unionist or Protestant who would like a game. Though that’s the point isn’t it.

Teams don't name themselves after terrorists. Casement Park is called after Sir Roger Casement, a protestant. Would you feel welcome there?

Scoondal

Never, never, never.
Or in my Ian Paisley (R.I.P.) voice ... NEVER, NEVER, NEVER.
I didn't generally agree with him, but on this point I think he was spot on.

Fionn1952

Scoondal wrote: »

Never, never, never.
Or in my Ian Paisley (R.I.P.) voice ... NEVER, NEVER, NEVER.
I didn't generally agree with him, but on this point I think he was spot on.

On that point, he was 100% incorrect. I suspect you don't actually know the full context of the quote. It wasn't specifically about unification.

Paisley was saying 'Never' to 'the Irish Republic having some say in our province' .....unfortunately for Paisley's ilk, it has already happened, so no, it absolutely wasn't, 'spot on'.

Perhaps reading more than three words of a speech would help before wading in like you have half a clue what you're on about?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

On that point, he was 100% incorrect. I suspect you don't actually know the full context of the quote. It wasn't specifically about unification.

Paisley was saying 'Never' to 'the Irish Republic having some say in our province' .....unfortunately for Paisley's ilk, it has already happened, so no, it absolutely wasn't, 'spot on'.

Perhaps reading more than three words of a speech would help before wading in like you have half a clue what you're on about?

What power exactly does Roi have in NI?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

What power exactly does Roi have in NI?

Power is devolved to the executive in NI. You know this.
The devolved government is operating a framework drawn up by the two sovereign governments of the UK and Ireland under the auspices of the GFA. You know this too.
The devolved government is operating a framework agreed between the two sovereign governments called 'New Decade, New Approach'. You should know this too.
The UK will and can do nothing constitutionally in NI without consulting Dublin (see Brexit for an example when the UK government tried to go rogue and failed) or it risks breaking the GFA.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

What power exactly does Roi have in NI?

This is the actual quote from Paisley (note nothing about 'power'):


“Where do the terrorists operate from? From the Irish Republic, that’s where they come from. Where do the terrorists return to for sanctuary? To the Irish Republic.


“And yet Mrs. Thatcher tells us that that Republic must have some say in our province.
We say, never, never, never, never

Can we agree that Ireland has a 'say' in the affairs of Northern Ireland.

Edit: Just remembered, doesn't an Irish State owned company own Northern Ireland's power supply?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

This is the actual quote from Paisley (note nothing about 'power'):


“Where do the terrorists operate from? From the Irish Republic, that’s where they come from. Where do the terrorists return to for sanctuary? To the Irish Republic.


“And yet Mrs. Thatcher tells us that that Republic must have some say in our province.
We say, never, never, never, never

Can we agree that Ireland has a 'say' in the affairs of Northern Ireland.

Edit: Just remembered, doesn't an Irish State owned company own Northern Ireland's power supply?

Horay to the two Francies

I think Francie (on here) has just answered your question. They have zero power to decide anything in NI.
If you are arguing that they do have a say then you should get very annoyed with them on a whole range of issues which they and you say yous want eg Irish Language Act, which have not happened.

Your argument about Irish state company and power is just ridiculous unless you are going to admit china has a say in ROI, UK, EU, etc.

The other Francie (Molloy) seems to have got it right - you guys think the GFA gave you practically a UI

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Horay to the two Francies

I think Francie (on here) has just answered your question. They have zero power to decide anything in NI.
If you are arguing that they do have a say then you should get very annoyed with them on a whole range of issues which they and you say yous want eg Irish Language Act, which have not happened.

Your argument about Irish state company and power is just ridiculous unless you are going to admit china has a say in ROI, UK, EU, etc.

The other Francie (Molloy) seems to have got it right - you guys think the GFA gave you practically a UI

You wanted to Brexit along with the UK...you ended up being seperated from the UK in a way you vehemently objected to.

Why did that happen downcow? Because we used our powers vested in the GFA to keep you in the EU.

Just because you refuse to confront the issues doesn't mean they don't exist.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Horay to the two Francies

I think Francie (on here) has just answered your question. They have zero power to decide anything in NI.
If you are arguing that they do have a say then you should get very annoyed with them on a whole range of issues which they and you say yous want eg Irish Language Act, which have not happened.

Your argument about Irish state company and power is just ridiculous unless you are going to admit china has a say in ROI, UK, EU, etc.

The other Francie (Molloy) seems to have got it right - you guys think the GFA gave you practically a UI

That was just a poor pun on your use of 'power'. Apologies.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

What power exactly does Roi have in NI?

The Irish nation has been a force that is not contained within the 26 counties for centuries now. The Irish diaspora in the US has warned the British not to mess around with the border/GFA and the British have paid attention. Ireland punches way above its weight diplomatically. You've always looked to the British state to crack Paddy's skull if he ever got above his station but you've been systematically outmanoeuvred.

How Ireland gets its way: An unlikely diplomatic superpower.

economist.com

Here's the thing, that pains you and your type. You absolutely hate the idea that those unruly Paddies might be getting one over on you.

DC, I recommend that Unionists who want to preserve what's left of British jurisdiction start voting Alliance and work on making the northeast of Ireland indistinguishable from the rest of the country because the DUP/UUP have been a gift to those of us who seek Irish unification.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Irish nation has been a force that is not contained within the 26 counties for centuries now. The Irish diaspora in the US has warned the British not to mess around with the border/GFA and the British have paid attention. Ireland punches way above its weight diplomatically. You've always looked to the British state to crack Paddy's skull if he ever got above his station but you've been systematically outmanoeuvred.
n.

Well if that’s 100 years of outmanoeuvring, then give me another 100 of outmanoeuvring please.

Edgware

jm08 wrote: »

So, this has nothing to do with the GAA other than there was a Wolfetone Concert in the local GAA hall? With that kind of logic, the Orange Order were responsible for the death of the three Quinn boys.


What do you say to catholics who were burnt out of their homes? Are you surprised if they don't forgive protestants for doing that? Take Bobby Storey for example - burnt out of 3 homes by protestants by the age of 14. He joined the IRA at 16.




Whats the important bit of your band culture?




What do you say to people who feel threatened by these activities. Is that part of the enjoyment of them?

What about the what abouts? FFS we dont give a ****e about any of these dirtbirds

Hamsterchops

Irish Unification 2024

...... according to DATA in Star Trek: The Next Generation S3, Ep12/26.

Scoondal

Hopefully never.

Fionn1952

Scoondal wrote: »

Hopefully never.

So apart from showing up every so often with a pithy one liner to try and stir the pot, do you actually have anything to contribute?

Would you find it particularly informative, useful or constructive if I kept jumping into threads and stating that camping site holidays are just for people who can't go on a proper holiday?

I'd have an Ireland full of people like Downcow all day over bog average trolls like yourself. At least he can articulate his point of view beyond obvious trolling attempts.

walshb

Do near as many people who claim to care, actually care? Or is it seen as one needing to want it, more than actually waning it...?

Will it make any real difference to anyone's actual heart?

The world is seeing nationalities eroded....we are all so closely aligned and linked today, that being Irish today is not at all like being Irish years and years ago...

Nationality identity today is just not all that big a deal....

Scoondal

Fionn1952 wrote: »

So apart from showing up every so often with a pithy one liner to try and stir the pot, do you actually have anything to contribute?

Would you find it particularly informative, useful or constructive if I kept jumping into threads and stating that camping site holidays are just for people who can't go on a proper holiday?

I'd have an Ireland full of people like Downcow all day over bog average trolls like yourself. At least he can articulate his point of view beyond obvious trolling attempts.

I am sorry that you don't agree with my personal opinion. You have yours and I have mine.

We need to "stir the pot" as you say. We should question and debate. That is a fundemental part of living in a democratic republic. Or have things changed since I got older ?

Hamsterchops

Quite a few NI car registrations around down here since the 12th, visiting here with their yellow plates, and their shiny slightly 'higher spec' cars.

Alerted by our odd looking 'Yeild right of way' signs instead of their Give Way signs, Kilometers instead of miles, Garda cars instead of Police cars.

Paying by Euro instead of GBP at the pumps, listening to Irish DJs on the radio talking about ROI issues, slightly different Covid regs, different government, different laws, different attitudes, different country.

So, do they crave to be the same? Or do they look forward to driving up back home & across the border, back to Vodafone UK, back to Sainsburys, back on UK soil, paying by GBP, listening to NI issues on BBC NI, and back home to all the other yellow number plates .......

Or do they really want to be the same as us?

Unify with us, become one with us drop the NHS, embrace the HSE, and have Irish as their No1 official language . or do they like to just visit here have some fun and then go back home to NI.

Do we know for sure what they want?

gormdubhgorm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Irish Unification 2024

...... according to DATA in Star Trek: The Next Generation S3, Ep12/26.

It was not aired on UK channels at the time 1990. Plus it was not aired on RTE.
Finally was only shown in full by 2007.

Plus makes it even funnier when Chief O'Brien (Colm Meaney) said Bollocks on Star Trek before! That passed by the censors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G839zf2F6eY

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Time%27s_Orphan_(episode)

Fionn1952

Scoondal wrote: »

I am sorry that you don't agree with my personal opinion. You have yours and I have mine.

We need to "stir the pot" as you say. We should question and debate. That is a fundemental part of living in a democratic republic. Or have things changed since I got older ?

I have no issue whatsoever with your personal opinion. I've engaged with plenty of people on this thread with opinions which differ from mine, to include people from the North from a Unionist perspective, from Ireland who support continuing partition and from both sides with a more hard Republican outlook than I have.

We should absolutely question and debate! My issue is that you're not questioning anything and you're certainly not debating. You're sticking your oar in with the odd pointless statement, discussing absolutely nothing and offering nothing to actually substantiate your points.

The closest to an actual point you've made was a completely misinterpreted partial Ian Paisley quote, even that was lobbed in without context. When constructively asked about your misinterpretation of that quote, you ignored the conversation.....and returned with another pointless one liner. That's my issue.

So feel free to articulate your opinions of course.....but maybe consider...you know, actually articulating an opinion before complaining that people have an issue with yours?

The_Fitz

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Quite a few NI car registrations around down here since the 12th, visiting here with their yellow plates, and their shiny slightly 'higher spec' cars.

Alerted by our odd looking 'Yeild right of way' signs instead of their Give Way signs, Kilometers instead of miles, Garda cars instead of Police cars.

Paying by Euro instead of GBP at the pumps, listening to Irish DJs on the radio talking about ROI issues, slightly different Covid regs, different government, different laws, different attitudes, different country.

So, do they crave to be the same? Or do they look forward to driving up back home & across the border, back to Vodafone UK, back to Sainsburys, back on UK soil, paying by GBP, listening to NI issues on BBC NI, and back home to all the other yellow number plates .......

Or do they really want to be the same as us?

Unify with us, become one with us drop the NHS, embrace the HSE, and have Irish as their No1 official language . or do they like to just visit here have some fun and then go back home to NI.

Do we know for sure what they want?

Very good question. I suppose we won't know until a border poll takes place.

You can roughly take figures from the parties that they vote for, and the aspirations that those parties have. 2019 GE gave Republicans/Nationalists around 40% and hardline Unionists around 46%. Alliance (who are a unionist party, but more amenable to discussion got around 8%.

Due to the GFA, it will come down to those who see themselves in the middle to decide what suits them better. In my opinion, seeing 100 years of decline in the north will give them a lot to think about.

The points you make about the differences are good, but also not totally accurate. For example, in my house in Belfast, RTE would be the only radio station listened to. Irish TV channels perused before BBC seems to be the order (for those who still watch live TV). My own family and a lot of others took Varadker's lead on covid before Johnson's when it all kicked off, as it was plainly better. I doubt any of them care what's stamped on their coins as long as there are coins in their pocket. With no data roaming charges, they couldn't care less about who their mobile provider is (albeit Brexit could change that).

My granda had an operation late last year, 4 year waiting list on the NHS, he needed it sooner. NHS paid for him to go to a hospital in Offaly to have it carried out.

My family have always escaped for the 12th and headed to Donegal. In recent years, this is now more of a tradition than anything more sinister, but there was definitely no rush to head back home.

I fail to see astronomical differences between anybody on this island. Apart from every new build having breeze blocks in their gardens walls in the south, whats that about? Oh and yes, choice of shop is better in the north. And next day delivery not really being a thing in the south. No Amazon Prime, no reunification.

Fionn1952

The_Fitz wrote: »

Very good question. I suppose we won't know until a border poll takes place.

You can roughly take figures from the parties that they vote for, and the aspirations that those parties have. 2019 GE gave Republicans/Nationalists around 40% and hardline Unionists around 46%. Alliance (who are a unionist party, but more amenable to discussion got around 8%.

Due to the GFA, it will come down to those who see themselves in the middle to decide what suits them better. In my opinion, seeing 100 years of decline in the north will give them a lot to think about.

The points you make about the differences are good, but also not totally accurate. For example, in my house in Belfast, RTE would be the only radio station listened to. Irish TV channels perused before BBC seems to be the order (for those who still watch live TV). My own family and a lot of others took Varadker's lead on covid before Johnson's when it all kicked off, as it was plainly better. I doubt any of them care what's stamped on their coins as long as there are coins in their pocket. With no data roaming charges, they couldn't care less about who their mobile provider is (albeit Brexit could change that).

My granda had an operation late last year, 4 year waiting list on the NHS, he needed it sooner. NHS paid for him to go to a hospital in Offaly to have it carried out.

My family have always escaped for the 12th and headed to Donegal. In recent years, this is now more of a tradition than anything more sinister, but there was definitely no rush to head back home.

I fail to see astronomical differences between anybody on this island. Apart from every new build having breeze blocks in their gardens walls in the south, whats that about? Oh and yes, choice of shop is better in the north. And next day delivery not really being a thing in the south. No Amazon Prime, no reunification.

Fair points Fitz, and a lot of similarities to my own family experiences in the North.

One thing I would be wary of is expecting the votes to translate quite so directly along the party vote lines. If your experience was anything like my own (admittedly I haven't lived in the North for the last few election cycles), a significant number of voters who would appear to be on the more hardline Nationalist or Unionist side of the fence are much more moderate in actual political outlook. As you know yourself, very often it is a case of voting for one as they're the only reasonable prospect of keeping the other extreme out. With that, I suspect the hard committed both for or against Unification is significantly smaller than voting trends would imply, and the middle ground of people who will be won to one side or the other significantly larger.

With that in mind, I'd be of the opinion that a border poll will be won or lost based on how either is campaigned for in the run up. If run right now, Brexit/the current pandemic gives plenty of material to those campaigning for unification, the NHS and at least a short term economic bump at a time we can ill afford it giving plenty of material to those campaigning against it. Who can present their side in a more appealing manner? Well that remains to be seen.

The_Fitz

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Fair points Fitz, and a lot of similarities to my own family experiences in the North.

One thing I would be wary of is expecting the votes to translate quite so directly along the party vote lines. If your experience was anything like my own (admittedly I haven't lived in the North for the last few election cycles), a significant number of voters who would appear to be on the more hardline Nationalist or Unionist side of the fence are much more moderate in actual political outlook. As you know yourself, very often it is a case of voting for one as they're the only reasonable prospect of keeping the other extreme out. With that, I suspect the hard committed both for or against Unification is significantly smaller than voting trends would imply, and the middle ground of people who will be won to one side or the other significantly larger.

With that in mind, I'd be of the opinion that a border poll will be won or lost based on how either is campaigned for in the run up. If run right now, Brexit/the current pandemic gives plenty of material to those campaigning for unification, the NHS and at least a short term economic bump at a time we can ill afford it giving plenty of material to those campaigning against it. Who can present their side in a more appealing manner? Well that remains to be seen.

Totally agree. The numbers are not to be used alone. Many nationalists vote for UUP to keep out the DUP and vice versa for the SDLP would be true I imagine.

A border poll would be totally fascinating. The calling of a border poll needs to be far more transparent, what is the SOS waiting to see, actual election results or opinion polls? We need everyone who supports a UI, to try to engage those who do not, to allay their fears.

Hamsterchops

The_Fitz wrote: »

A border poll would be totally fascinating. The calling of a border poll needs to be far more transparent, what is the SOS waiting to see, actual election results or opinion polls? We need everyone who supports a UI, to try to engage those who do not, to allay their fears.

But why the Need to be the same, why the need to "Green" the North? Why the need to detach it from GB and pull it into line with the ROI?

I heard an interesting discussion on Radio 4 a few months ago re Brexit and one little nugget that stuck in my head was from an American contributer who thought it pretty cool that you guys in Ireland have such great choice on the one island, UK standards up North and Irish/EU standards down south = great choice on the same island.... so why kill the choice?

Vive la difference

Fionn1952

Hamsterchops wrote: »

But why the Need to be the same, why the need to "Green" the North? Why the need to detach it from GB and pull it into line with the ROI?

I heard an interesting discussion on Radio 4 a few months ago re Brexit and one little nugget that stuck in my head was from an American contributer who thought it pretty cool that you guys in Ireland have such great choice on the one island, UK standards up North and Irish/EU standards down south = great choice on the same island.... so why kill the choice?

Vive la difference

Without getting into a big spiel, of course it was an American contributor who thought that. If you were to suggest partitioning Texas off and giving half to Mexico to the same fella, with the justification that the Texans should be delighted with the great choice between Mexican and US standards all in the same state, I suspect you wouldn't get such a positive response.

Simply put, for me I don't believe that Westminster particularly cares about NI, and the current economic state of the place reflects that. While I think we have stepped past the 'Perfidious Albion' type of relationship (albeit only in my lifetime) I don't believe NI interests are ever anything above the most minor of considerations in British decision making.

The_Fitz

Hamsterchops wrote: »

But why the Need to be the same, why the need to "Green" the North? Why the need to detach it from GB and pull it into line with the ROI?

I heard an interesting discussion on Radio 4 a few months ago re Brexit and one little nugget that stuck in my head was from an American contributer who thought it pretty cool that you guys in Ireland have such great choice on the one island, UK standards up North and Irish/EU standards down south = great choice on the same island.... so why kill the choice?

Vive la difference

I think you have to see the percentage of people in the south would prefer to live under Westminster rule, compared to the percentage of people in the north who would prefer to live under Irish rule as an indicator of these 'great choices'.

Hamsterchops

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Simply put, for me I don't believe that Westminster particularly cares about NI, and the current economic state of the place reflects that. While I think we have stepped past the 'Perfidious Albion' type of relationship (albeit only in my lifetime) I don't believe NI interests are ever anything above the most minor of considerations in British decision making.

And I dare say not many would disagree with you, but it's the inhabitants of Northern Ireland I'm talking about, the majority who are Ulster Scots/ British/ Northern Irish and who wish to be part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, and who wish to be cordial (but seperate) from this State.

The population will either decide to stay within the United Kingdom, or they may vote to leave it? And if they vote to leave the UK what next? A 32 county Republic?

Or . . . . .