How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

downcow when will you realise you will NOT be calling different shots come a border poll.
The 'shots' have been called and agreed to long since. You agreed to it, IF a majority vote for a UI then the two sovereign governments will do what is necessary to make that happen.

You are living in cloud cuckoo land, if you think the two governments are not going to take into consideration the views of 1 million people who will be living on an island of 5 million.
Again you completely fail to address the post you are responding to. And failed to answer the question you are asked.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

A very fair and reasonable post.
You will note though that a few pages back I agreed to discuss the hypothetical united Ireland in a couple of posts, and immediately the SF supporters on here attempted to imply that I now accepted it was inevitable.

I get what you're saying and I can see how it makes total sense from where you are looking, but for me to accept that there is a possibility of a united Ireland sometime in the future, is like Republicans accepting that Northern Ireland will quite possibly never ever leave the UK. Try getting Sinn Fein's to accept that

Any Republican who doesn't accept that possibility would be just as misguided as you are, Downcow.

It isn't an opinion, it is literally a fact that it is possible (that applies to you and anyone on the Republican side who can't accept that it is possible).

Your acceptance of facts will have no impact on whether it comes to pass or not. If Unionists could acknowledge the possibility and engage on what the best case outcome for your community would be should it come to pass, then as I mentioned, at least you would have a voice. You can do this while continuing to work towards maintaining the union.


In a later post, you mentioned a million Unionists and a population of five million, just to be more precise, it's closer to 870,000 Unionists (48% of ~1.8M in NI as per the 2011 census) and a total island population of ~6.9M.

12.5% of the entire population of the island is certainly significant, but no need to exaggerate it up to 20%! I think you make a reasonable point when you say a section this large will not be ignored by both governments, but it is somewhat undermined by the exaggerated numbers.

The key issue there though, highlighted well by your point; if you stick your head in the sand and refuse to discuss your concerns and wishes should unification happen, well you can't expect the British and Irish governments to psychically analyse your community to see what you want, and you really lose any merit you would have in complaining about it after the fact.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

You are living in cloud cuckoo land, if you think the two governments are not going to take into consideration the views of 1 million people who will be living on an island of 5 million.
Again you completely fail to address the post you are responding to. And failed to answer the question you are asked.

1 million people on an island of 7 million. Also I'd imagine the vast vast majority of Unionists would just want to get on with it so you might get a hardcore of a few thousand rioting and whatnot.

downcow wrote: »

There would be real potential of getting on a downward spiral of another sectarian tit-for-tat mess...

Tell me DC, what would unionist killers want if they started murdering innocent Catholics again? What would their demands be?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You are living in cloud cuckoo land, if you think the two governments are not going to take into consideration the views of 1 million people who will be living on an island of 5 million.
Again you completely fail to address the post you are responding to. And failed to answer the question you are asked.

I did answer it when you first asked it. Scroll bsc...it's a NO to devolution from me for the simple reason as it is and always was a failure and to maintain it would be can kicking and appeasement of people going back on something that has already been agreed.

If the majority of people vote for a UI, then the two sovereign governments are mandated by the agreement they signed to make that happen in their respective parliaments.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

1 million people on an island of 7 million. Also I'd imagine the vast vast majority of Unionists would just want to get on with it so you might get a hardcore of a few thousand rioting and whatnot.



Tell me DC, what would unionist killers want if they started murdering innocent Catholics again? What would their demands be?

I guess the same as the IRA wanted when they were killing innocent Protestants. They might think that they could influence a whole community to change their mind by carrying out sectarian attacks. They would of course be misguided, in the same way as the IRA was misguided. The catholic community would simply unite and get stronger as the Protestant community did under the IRA onslaught.

downcow

¬sem.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I did answer it when you first asked it. Scroll bsc...it's a NO to devolution from me for the simple reason as it is and always was a failure and to maintain it would be can kicking and appeasement of people going back on something that has already been agreed.

If the majority of people vote for a UI, then the two sovereign governments are mandated by the agreement they signed to make that happen in their respective parliaments.

Still not addressing my point. My question was not what would be wrong with devolution. My question was why Unionists in Ireland would not deserve the same treatment as nationalists in the UK, i.e. devolution?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I guess the same as the IRA wanted when they were killing innocent Protestants.

The British to pull out of Ireland?

Seriously, what would Unionist paramilitaries want. Can you not answer the question?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I guess the same as the IRA wanted when they were killing innocent Protestants. They might think that they could influence a whole community to change their mind by carrying out sectarian attacks. They would of course be misguided, in the same way as the IRA was misguided. The catholic community would simply unite and get stronger as the Protestant community did under the IRA onslaught.

You have not said what they would be fighting for. Is it a return to being part of the UK or an Independent Northern Ireland. What would the aim of the catholic murder campaign be?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

You have not said what they would be fighting for. Is it a return to being part of the UK or an Independent Northern Ireland. What would the aim of the catholic murder campaign be?

Firstly I would absolutely disagree with Unionists replicating the IRA sectarian murder campaign. It got the IRA nowhere and caused horrific grief.
I guess their initial request would be for a devolved NI within a united Ireland - same as nationalists had when they were in the UK. But that is just a guess.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

¬sem.

Still not addressing my point. My question was not what would be wrong with devolution. My question was why Unionists in Ireland would not deserve the same treatment as nationalists in the UK, i.e. devolution?

Because devolution hasn't worked and won't.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Firstly I would absolutely disagree with Unionists replicating the IRA sectarian murder campaign. It got the IRA nowhere and caused horrific grief.
I guess their initial request would be for a devolved NI within a united Ireland - same as nationalists had when they were in the UK. But that is just a guess.

Nationalists didn't have a devolved NI within the UK. First 50 years it was a Unionist Government with catholics locked out by gerrymandering, then it was direct rule up to GFA. GFA provided powersharing. At no stage has nationalists had a devolved NI.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

a devolved NI within a united Ireland

You do realise that that gang of sectarian serial killers would literally be shooting the people they want to agree to live with them in a six county northeast Ireland region? Do you realise how insane that sounds?

Here's the thing DC, you know once a UI is voted for it's all over. The best thing you could do is work for close ties between Britain and Ireland.

maccored

downcow wrote: »

I guess the same as the IRA wanted when they were killing innocent Protestants. They might think that they could influence a whole community to change their mind by carrying out sectarian attacks. They would of course be misguided, in the same way as the IRA was misguided. The catholic community would simply unite and get stronger as the Protestant community did under the IRA onslaught.

hang on - loyalists were trying their best to kill as many taigues as they could. you make it sound like they were at home doing some knitting. they weren't terribly good at it mind you, without the help of the security forces.

i just wouldnt be able to take a loyalist reaction seriously. they'd fall out over drugs and kill each other.

dd973

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You do realise that that gang of sectarian serial killers would literally be shooting the people they want to agree to live with them in a six county northeast Ireland region? Do you realise how insane that sounds?

Here's the thing DC, you know once a UI is voted for it's all over. The best thing you could do is work for close ties between Britain and Ireland.

An unexpected feeling when the border goes will be a giant sense of relief on all sides. It'll be better if the Scots get out of the U.K first, Scots Nats have no truck with all that Orange/Sectarian anachronistic claptrap, they see us as fellow Celtic Europeans not 'taigs' or 'tarriers'.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You do realise that that gang of sectarian serial killers would literally be shooting the people they want to agree to live with them in a six county northeast Ireland region? Do you realise how insane that sounds?

Brilliant - best post yet from you. I agree 100% with you on this. And you have brilliantly described the ira campaign of the 70s, 80s & 90s and why they screwed up any chance of a successful United ireland

downcow

maccored wrote: »

hang on - loyalists were trying their best to kill as many taigues as they could. you make it sound like they were at home doing some knitting. they weren't terribly good at it mind you, without the help of the security forces.

Where did I say anything like that. All I said about the ira campaign applies to the uda campaign. Petty you couldn’t say something similar but you bigotry and prejudice won’t allow you.
It was in the main a tit-for-tat sectarian conflict. One side was not demanding anything, other than that the other side stop killing them, and as soon as the ira stopped killing Protestants the loyalists stopped retaliating.
One side offered ‘abject remorse, the other didn’t
Both sides were disgusting but if you want to put them on a scale of disgustingness, the Ira win hands down.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You do realise that that gang of sectarian serial killers would literally be shooting the people they want to agree to live with them in a six county northeast Ireland region? Do you realise how insane that sounds?

Here's the thing DC, you know once a UI is voted for it's all over. The best thing you could do is work for close ties between Britain and Ireland.

I see even republicans on here telling you that you are in cuckoo land if you think there will not be arrangements to ensure some level of autonomy go ni
So you have decided how 7 million people would govern them selves into the future hahaha

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I see even republicans on here telling you that you are in cuckoo land if you think there will not be arrangements to ensure some level of autonomy go ni
So you have decided how 7 million people would govern them selves into the future hahaha

Unionism usurped autonomy the last time they were given it. That is why the place went up in flames.
The sectarian bigoted state they created ensured that two sovereign governments had to agree a plan to take ultimate control away from you.
NI will never have autonomy or true devolution again...thanks to Unionism.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Unionism usurped autonomy the last time they were given it. That is why the place went up in flames.
The sectarian bigoted state they created ensured that two sovereign governments had to agree a plan to take ultimate control away from you.
NI will never have autonomy or true devolution again...thanks to Unionism.

I was under the impression NI has done well out of the GFA,they are in charge of their own destiny and the IRA has been eviscerated.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I was under the impression NI has done well out of the GFA,they are in charge of their own destiny and the IRA has been eviscerated.

All those who embraced the GFA, have done well out of it. But don't forget what the GFA is: it is oversight and ultimate control vested in partnership between 2 sovereign governments who recognised eventually that power had been usurped by the majority community. The GFA redresses that and ensures it can never happen again.
Instead of gloating about fantasy 'eviscerations' maybe you might be cognizant that one major party in NI has never accepted, much less embraced, the GFA. Those are the people you need to fear and be watchful off if you are a democrat.

Hamsterchops

...but what is Unionism?

So Scottish Unionists want to be in a union with the rest of Britain, that's (England & Wales) + Northern Ireland, Welsh Unionists wish to be in a union with the rest of Britain + Northern Ireland, and NI Unionists wish to maintain the union with Great Britain (Eng, Scot, Wales), and I dare say English Unionists also want the United Kingdom to stay together.

The Irish Sea ~

Irish Nationalists want their own union together on this island, alone (One island = One Nation), excluding and certainly not in a union with the other inhabitants of these islands.......

Then there's the European Union full of Unionists who want to be part of an economic & monetary Union with Europe as a whole. Lots of contradiction & overlapping in Unionism too

I won't get into Brexit.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

...but what is Unionism?

So Scottish Unionists want to be in a union with the rest of Britain, that's (England & Wales) + Northern Ireland, Welsh Unionists wish to be in a union with the rest of Britain + Northern Ireland, and NI Unionists wish to maintain the union with Great Britain (Eng, Scot, Wales), and I dare say English Unionists also want the United Kingdom to stay together.

The Irish Sea ~

Irish Nationalists want their own union together on this island, alone (One island = One Nation), excluding and certainly not in a union with the other inhabitants of these islands.......

Then there's the European Union full of Unionists who want to be part of an economic & monetary Union with Europe as a whole. Lots of contradiction & overlapping in Unionism too

I won't get into Brexit.

Are you having trouble there HC?

I thought the above would be a necessary and rudimentary understanding for anyone commenting on the politics of the region.

Edgware

Hamsterchops wrote: »

...but what is Unionism?

So Scottish Unionists want to be in a union with the rest of Britain, that's (England & Wales) + Northern Ireland, Welsh Unionists wish to be in a union with the rest of Britain + Northern Ireland, and NI Unionists wish to maintain the union with Great Britain (Eng, Scot, Wales), and I dare say English Unionists also want the United Kingdom to stay together.

The Irish Sea ~

Irish Nationalists want their own union together on this island, alone (One island = One Nation), excluding and certainly not in a union with the other inhabitants of these islands.......

Then there's the European Union full of Unionists who want to be part of an economic & monetary Union with Europe as a whole. Lots of contradiction & overlapping in Unionism too

I won't get into Brexit.

Thats a lot of unionism.
Should we all be unionists now Father? Whats the Church's teaching on it?

Hamsterchops

Deleted User wrote: »

NI is worse off than all other areas on the island....among poorest regions of northern europe.

It has been a complete and utter failure econmically....the brits arent fit to rule emselves,no mind part of our island

Northern Ireland was held ro ransom and bombed to buggery during the Troubles, so no wonder it has suffered economically.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I see even republicans on here telling you that you are in cuckoo land if you think there will not be arrangements to ensure some level of autonomy go ni
So you have decided how 7 million people would govern them selves into the future hahaha

You think it would be good for unionists to be part of a devolved assembly where your colleagues in powersharing, Sinn Fein will be in the majority and being told what to do by a Dublin Sec of State?

jm08

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Northern Ireland was held ro ransom and bombed to buggery during the Troubles, so no wonder it has suffered economically.

Northern Ireland suffered economically for the first 50 years of its existence when there was little or no ''Troubles''.

You should watch the documentary ''John Hume in America'' now on the rte player.

https://www.rte.ie/player/movie/john-hume-in-america/78385704430

In it, it will explain how as part of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, the US (Jimmy Carter) were going to heavily invest in Northern Ireland.

Unionists blew that one.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

All those who embraced the GFA, have done well out of it. But don't forget what the GFA is: it is oversight and ultimate control vested in partnership between 2 sovereign governments who recognised eventually that power had been usurped by the majority community. The GFA redresses that and ensures it can never happen again.
Instead of gloating about fantasy 'eviscerations' maybe you might be cognizant that one major party in NI has never accepted, much less embraced, the GFA. Those are the people you need to fear and be watchful off if you are a democrat.

I'm not gloating about anything.
This is how I see it:NI are better off because the people are in control of their own destiny.
Ireland is better off, if there is an agreement along with the people of NI there will be a UI.
The UK(including NI)is free of terrorist attacks.
The only organisation that has lost out is the IRA who have been forced to stand down without achieving their goal.

jh79

Deleted User wrote: »

NI is worse off than all other areas on the island....among poorest regions of northern europe


It has been a complete and utter failure econmically....the brits arent fit to rule emselves,no mind part of our island

While it might have some of the poorest regions in Europe those working in NI are actually better off than those working in the South because about 30% of workers are in the Public Service. In an unification scenario those people are likely to see their wealth cut to harmonize with the Republic.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not gloating about anything.
This is how I see it:NI are better off because the people are in control of their own destiny.
Ireland is better off, if there is an agreement along with the people of NI there will be a UI.
The UK(including NI)is free of terrorist attacks.
The only organisation that has lost out is the IRA who have been forced to stand down without achieving their goal.

While I agree that the people of NI are better off now because of the GFA, they are not in control of their own destiny because they need the Secretary of State (who is a unionist) to give them the opportunity to decide their own destiny.


The only ones who seem to care about the PIRA losing out, are unionists. No one else cares.

jm08

jh79 wrote: »

While it might have some of the poorest regions in Europe those working in NI are actually better off than those working in the South because about 30% of workers are in the Public Service. In an unification scenario those people are likely to see their wealth cut to harmonize with the Republic.

So, if more foreign direct investment is brought into NI so that there are more jobs available, the percentage of public service jobs will fall as there will be more people working in the private sector.

Seagate came to Derry in 1994 (brought by John Hume) providing 500 jobs then. It employs about 1500 now.