Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

Blaze420

bettyoleary wrote: »

I don't get 350 a week but for all those that do I'm sorry its not more.

Yeah let’s whip out the tiny violin - maybe you can play it in front of the magic money tree?

Arghus

road_high wrote: »

Keep the money roadshow going for another blast- once it ends him and his cronies are out of a handy few bob “advising” and doing zilch tangible in the way of preventing the virus spreading.

What do you think they should do that's tangible? Don hazmat suits and disinfect Park benches?

They're trying to give educated opinion and advice, if people don't want to listen you can't blame them.

greensheep777

bettyoleary wrote: »

I'm not scare mongering about anythink. You or I don't know how this virus will play out, Am I right??? I think so. Germany is at the early stages of Pandemic I'm afraid and you cant change that by sniping at me.

Germany has flattened the curve and is way ahead of Ireland in reopening. I know because I live there. Can you elaborate on why you believe that Germany was trying to cover up outbreaks in churches and meat plants given that it was all over the German news? You also haven't answered the question of why Germany's caseload should be trebled but not Ireland's.

It sounds like you've never been outside of the country and automatically demonise dem foridners. What does Joe Duffy say when you ring?

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

This is just comical at this point.
Trump to the left, Johnson to the right, but some people in Ireland losing their sh*t over a leader who is following scientific advice.

The post is not without merit. I don’t mind the slow opening based purely ok getting numbers down as low as they can. But the fact is that Ireland sitting here paying people 350 a week to sit on their hole while the rest of Europe gets back to work is exactly the reason why there won’t be a Eurobond. We won’t get looked upon very kindly by our European neighbours

There is no evidence whatsoever of ‘second waves’ across Europe. All your posts smack of irrational panic

road_high

Arghus wrote: »

What do you think they should do that's tangible? Don hazmat suits and disinfect Park benches?

They're trying to give educated opinion and advice, if people don't want to listen you can't blame them.

Would probably be more useful than what they’re doing now to be honest which mainly involves a rush for media attention and appearances. The cynic in me tells me a great many have eyes on other prizes like Seanad nominations and other various talk shops with big stipends involved

bettyoleary

Blaze420 wrote: »

Yeah let’s whip out the tiny violin - maybe you can play it in front of the magic money tree?

Why are you so angry that people through no fault of their own have been put out of work and have no choice but to rely on this payment? I don't understand why you think an average family in Ireland would be living a life of luxury on this. As Ive pointed out some people spend this and more on a bottle of wine.

Arghus

road_high wrote: »

Would probably be more useful than what they’re doing now to be honest which mainly involves a rush for media attention and appearances. The cynic in me tells me a great many have eyes on other prizes like Seanad nominations and other various talk shops with big stipends involved

I don't know how his logic can be argued with though in this case.

If you've still got unexplained cases of community transmission then it isn't sensible to forego all restrictions on internal travel.

patnor1011

The science of the coronavirus is not disputed. It is well documented and openly admitted:

Most people won’t get the virus.

Most of the people who get it won’t display symptoms.

Most of the people who display symptoms will only be mildly sick.

Most of the people with severe symptoms will never be critically ill.

And most of the people who get critically ill will survive.

This is borne out by the numerous serological studies which show, again and again, that the infection fatality ratio is on par with flu.

There is no science – and increasingly little rational discussion – to justify the lockdown measures and overall sense of global panic.

bettyoleary

greensheep777 wrote: »

Germany has flattened the curve and is way ahead of Ireland in reopening. I know because I live there. Can you elaborate on why you believe that Germany was trying to cover up outbreaks in churches and meat plants given that it was all over the German news? You also haven't answered the question of why Germany's caseload should be trebled but not Ireland's.

It sounds like you've never been outside of the country and automatically demonise dem foridners. What does Joe Duffy say when you ring?

I didn't say they were covering up cases in meat factories. I wouldn't know about it if it wasn't reported would I. I am saying they have a lot more daily cases than is reported because no country knows how many cases they have because they arnt testing everybody so we take what is reported and from that we estimate.
I know footballers were not allowed to say if they tested positive. Again, that has been reported so judging by that I'm assuming they are keeping outbreaks quiet. I may be wrong, but I doubt it. Germany have been told by scientists over the past weeks the R rate is high and they were ignoring scientific advise.

Blaze420

bettyoleary wrote: »

Why are you so angry that people through no fault of their own have been put out of work and have no choice but to rely on this payment? I don't understand why you think an average family in Ireland would be living a life of luxury on this. As Ive pointed out some people spend this and more on a bottle of wine.

You wish we could give more than 350 - I think it’s quite a generous amount already , and one which is already proving to be a massive drain on the state finances. By the way who spends 350e on a bottle of wine when they have no income????

Arghus

patnor1011 wrote: »

The science of the coronavirus is not disputed. It is well documented and openly admitted:

Most people won’t get the virus.

Most of the people who get it won’t display symptoms.

Most of the people who display symptoms will only be mildly sick.

Most of the people with severe symptoms will never be critically ill.

And most of the people who get critically ill will survive.

This is borne out by the numerous serological studies which show, again and again, that the infection fatality ratio is on par with flu.

There is no science – and increasingly little rational discussion – to justify the lockdown measures and overall sense of global panic.

What numerous serological studies.

chicorytip

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

With the numbers we get daily now he needs to justify not entering phase 3 on 8th of June. And phase 4.

Fourteen deaths recorded as being attributable to COVID19 so far this weekend and he still needs to justify sticking to the original plan, you say??

patnor1011

bettyoleary wrote: »

I didn't say they were covering up cases in meat factories. I wouldn't know about it if it wasn't reported would I. I am saying they have a lot more daily cases than is reported because no country knows how many cases they have because they arnt testing everybody so we take what is reported and from that we estimate.
I know footballers were not allowed to say if they tested positive. Again, that has been reported so judging by that I'm assuming they are keeping outbreaks quiet. I may be wrong, but I doubt it. Germany have been told by scientists over the past weeks the R rate is high and they were ignoring scientific advise.

You are for some reason fixated on Germany and yet you are completely out of the loop here.

Earlier this month, on May 9th, a report was leaked to the German alternate media magazine Tichys Einblick titled “Analysis of the Crisis Management”.
The report was commissioned by the German department of the interior, but then its findings were ignored, prompting one of the authors to release it through non-official channels.

The fall out of that, including attacks on the authors and minimising of the report’s findings, is all very fascinating and we highly recommend this detailed report on Strategic Culture (or read the full report here in German).

We’re going to focus on just the reports conclusions, including [our emphasis]:

The dangerousness of Covid-19 was overestimated: probably at no point did the danger posed by the new virus go beyond the normal level.

The danger is obviously no greater than that of many other viruses. There is no evidence that this was more than a false alarm.

During the Corona crisis the State has proved itself as one of the biggest producers of Fake News.

After being attacked in the press, and suspended from his job, the leaker and other authors of the report released a joint statement, calling on the government to respond to their findings.

Blaze420

chicorytip wrote: »

Fourteen deaths recorded as being attributable to COVID19 so far this weekend and he still needs to justify sticking to the original plan, you say??

Not this weekend, they are not real time figures as has been repeatedly pointed out the past couple of months.

patnor1011

Arghus wrote: »

What numerous serological studies.

Numerous means numerous. Have a blast.
https://swprs.org/studies-on-covid-19-lethality/

greensheep777

bettyoleary wrote: »

I didn't say they were covering up cases in meat factories.

Except that's exactly what you said:

bettyoleary wrote: »

Germany has on average around 500 new cases daily and that is those detected. You can treble that. They have outbreaks in meat factories, churches and wherever else they are keeping quiet about.

Why are you denying it when it's 2 pages back, in black and white? You can't even keep track of your own lies.

bettyoleary wrote: »

I am saying they have a lot more daily cases than is reported because no country knows how many cases they have because they arnt testing everybody so we take what is reported and from that we estimate.

For the third time - should Ireland treble its cases too, or is that only for those dirty foridners?

bettyoleary wrote: »

I know footballers were not allowed to say if they tested positive.

Except some Bundesliga games were cancelled over it. Please back up this rubbish you present as factual.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/10/football/bundesliga-dresden-football-coronavirus-spt-intl/index.html

bettyoleary wrote: »

Again, that has been reported so judging by that I'm assuming they are keeping outbreaks quiet. I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

You doubt you are wrong that they are keeping outbreaks quiet, despite the fact that I have provided links to dozens of news articles about the very outbreaks you are claiming were kept quiet?

I'm never heard so much biased, anti-German, pro-give-me-my-350-a-week crap.

snowstorm445

Went to get a haircut today here in Brussels after 4 months, only person in the shop, and both the barber and myself had to wear masks/gloves. They've been open a week already, apparently. As have most shops; restaurants and bars will be looked at in about a week. And this is despite Belgium having the highest number of deaths per capita of any country in Europe.

Plenty of people out enjoying themselves responsibly, practically everyone apart from a few teenagers are making the effort to socially distance and wear masks. Even shops which aren't required by law to make their customers wear masks are doing so now. Some communes won't let you down certain streets unless you wear them. And yet live is slowly going back to normal.

I fail to see why my family and friends in Ireland should still be cooped up as they are when in a country far more exposed and bearing a much harder brunt from the virus has managed to slowly return to normality without any huge spike so far. Never mind the dozen or so other European countries doing the same thing. Even some people here in work have commented on how slow Ireland seems to be dealing with it, there really aren't any other countries in Europe to compare it to. Despite what some people seem to think on here, Irish people aren't some sort of class apart from other Europeans, they on average are no less reckless or stupid or careless about public health than anywhere else. From what I can tell it's simply a factor of the leadership of other countries apparently being less paternal, patronising, dithering and indecisive in how they treat the people they represent.

greensheep777

snowstorm445 wrote: »

Went to get a haircut today here in Brussels after 4 months, only person in the shop, and both the barber and myself had to wear masks/gloves. They've been open a week already, apparently. As have most shops; restaurants and bars will be looked at in about a week. And this is despite Belgium having the highest number of deaths per capita of any country in Europe.

Plenty of people out enjoying themselves responsibly, practically everyone apart from a few teenagers are making the effort to socially distance and wear masks. Even shops which aren't required by law to make their customers wear masks are doing so now. Some communes won't let you down certain streets unless you wear them. And yet live is slowly going back to normal.

I fail to see why my family and friends in Ireland should still be cooped up as they are when in a country far more exposed and bearing a much harder brunt from the virus has managed to slowly return to normality without any huge spike so far. Never mind the dozen or so other European countries doing the same thing. Even some people here in work have commented on how slow Ireland seems to be dealing with it, there really aren't any other countries in Europe to compare it to. Despite what some people seem to think on here, Irish people aren't some sort of class apart from other Europeans, they on average are no less reckless or stupid or careless about public health than anywhere else. From what I can tell it's simply a factor of the leadership of other countries apparently being less paternal, patronising, dithering and indecisive in how they treat the people they represent.

Irish people are very small-minded. Shur lookit, let dem foridners open der countries up, we're doing better than the UK and shur isn't that all that matters.

patnor1011

patnor1011 wrote: »

The science of the coronavirus is not disputed. It is well documented and openly admitted:

Most people won’t get the virus.

Most of the people who get it won’t display symptoms.

Most of the people who display symptoms will only be mildly sick.

Most of the people with severe symptoms will never be critically ill.

And most of the people who get critically ill will survive.

This is borne out by the numerous serological studies which show, again and again, that the infection fatality ratio is on par with flu.

There is no science – and increasingly little rational discussion – to justify the lockdown measures and overall sense of global panic.

Do you not realise that there is a 2nd wave coming, the hospitals are going to be overwhelmed, 50000 will die.

We need to lockdown for another year at least and pay people more than 350 as it’s not enough.

greensheep777

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you not realise that there is a 2nd wave coming, the hospitals are going to be overwhelmed, 50000 will die.

We need to lockdown for another year at least and pay people more than 350 as it’s not enough.

Sure it won't even stop at the 2nd wave! There'll be a 3rd, 4th, and 5th! Everyone hide under your beds til at least 2041.

road_high

greensheep777 wrote: »

Irish people are very small-minded. Shur lookit, let dem foridners open der countries up, we're doing better than the UK and shur isn't that all that matters.

There’s a strong penal servitude psyche in the Irish that I thought we’d left behind but clearly not- illogical based on nothing nonsense like “sure it’ll be all worth it if stay put” is extremely common. It’s like if we do some penance all will be ok. Never mind looking at anything like hard scientific data to support it or not.

bettyoleary

patnor1011 wrote: »

You are for some reason fixated on Germany and yet you are completely out of the loop here.

Earlier this month, on May 9th, a report was leaked to the German alternate media magazine Tichys Einblick titled “Analysis of the Crisis Management”.
The report was commissioned by the German department of the interior, but then its findings were ignored, prompting one of the authors to release it through non-official channels.

The fall out of that, including attacks on the authors and minimising of the report’s findings, is all very fascinating and we highly recommend this detailed report on Strategic Culture (or read the full report here in German).

We’re going to focus on just the reports conclusions, including [our emphasis]:

The dangerousness of Covid-19 was overestimated: probably at no point did the danger posed by the new virus go beyond the normal level.

The danger is obviously no greater than that of many other viruses. There is no evidence that this was more than a false alarm.

During the Corona crisis the State has proved itself as one of the biggest producers of Fake News.

After being attacked in the press, and suspended from his job, the leaker and other authors of the report released a joint statement, calling on the government to respond to their findings.

The dangerousness of Covid-19 was overestimated: probably at no point did the danger posed by the new virus go beyond the normal level. What is the normal level.

Arghus

patnor1011 wrote: »

Numerous means numerous. Have a blast.
https://swprs.org/studies-on-covid-19-lethality/

There's a few interesting studies, most of which - according to that site - haven't been peer reviewed. So, it's far, very far, from conclusive.

There's also numerous other studies that give a much higher average IFR than anything printed there.

But, let's say, that I take it at face value that, yes, it eventually turns out that the IFR of Covid is far less than 1% - even if it is 0.2%

That would still mean it's more lethal than flu. It's also more transmissible than flu, there's no widespread immunity to it and there's no effective treatment for it. So you can't say it's comparable to flu: it kills more people, spreads quicker and has no effective treatment. It's different in all of those three ways.

And also if it is comparable to flu please explain this data representing cumulative excess deaths - which takes influenza into account - across different European jurisdictions for the years 2018, 2019 and the first few months of 2020.

https://euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps

patnor1011

bettyoleary wrote: »

The dangerousness of Covid-19 was overestimated: probably at no point did the danger posed by the new virus go beyond the normal level. What is the normal level.

That is pretty self-explanatory isn't it?

snowstorm445

road_high wrote: »

There’s a strong penal servitude psyche in the Irish that I thought we’d left behind but clearly not- illogical based on nothing nonsense like “sure it’ll be all worth it if stay put” is extremely common. It’s like if we do dine penance all will be ok. Never mind looking at anything like hard scientific data to support it or not.

I've seen some commentators talk about how the censorship of the past century seemed to appeal to a certain authoritarian moralistic streak in Irish people. People liked being told not to do certain things, read certain books or interact with certain people. Might still ring true for some people today.

In a way though, Ireland is one of the few European countries to have been fortunate enough in the past century not to have fallen under a dictatorship of some kind (and no, I'm not comparing this lockdown to a dictatorship, before anyone replies or brands me a Gemmaroid etc). I know that in places like Germany especially, the curtain-twitching element was the backbone of the Gestapo and especially the Stasi. Same thing with the PIDE secret police during the dictatorship in Portugal. There are uncomfortable reminders of it today, and lockdown vigilantism certainly bears resemblance to it. So while it has left a bad taste in the mouths of most Europeans, Ireland has never seen where that sort of ugly behaviour can lead to, and many people are unable to see the bad side of it; above all the distrust it breeds in communities, at a time when solidarity is most needed, and the breach in privacy. In some countries it's an unfortunate necessity but in Ireland some people seem to be almost gleeful about it.

greensheep777

road_high wrote: »

There’s a strong penal servitude psyche in the Irish that I thought we’d left behind but clearly not- illogical based on nothing nonsense like “sure it’ll be all worth it if stay put” is extremely common. It’s like if we do dine penance all will be ok. Never mind looking at anything like hard scientific data to support it or not.

Along with the fact that, as a nation, we're most comfortable when we're miserable? Maybe because it feels familiar? We also love moralising over others and their actions. There was a time you had to be an unmarried mother to get so much judgement and vitriol off other people. Now you just have to go more than 5km away from your house.

patnor1011

Arghus wrote: »

There's a few interesting studies, most of which - according to that site - haven't been peer reviewed. So, it's far, very far, from conclusive.

There's also numerous other studies that give a much higher average IFR than anything printed there.

But, let's say, that I take it at face value that, yes, it eventually turns out that the IFR of Covid is far less than 1% - even if it is 0.2%

That would still mean it's more lethal than flu. It's also more transmissible than flu, there's no widespread immunity to it and there's no effective treatment for it. So you can't say it's comparable to flu: it kills more people, spreads quicker and has no effective treatment. It's different in all of those three ways.

And also if it is comparable to flu please explain this data representing cumulative excess deaths - which takes influenza into account - across different European jurisdictions for the years 2018, 2019 and the first few months of 2020.

https://euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps

How about lack of access to healthcare due to lockdowns? I mean for example our rationale "to prevent hospitals being overrun" as if our health system was functioning before with waiting lists and insane number of people on troleys. But hey, at least people on troleys were in hospital and had a chance to get treatment they needed. Excess mortality is quite understandable as we and most of other countries emptied hospitals literaly overnight and scared people from seeking treatment. Good luck trying to find a doctor who will agree to see you in person. All this is bigger contributor to excess death than any corona virus could even dream of.

sporina

patnor1011 wrote: »

How about lack of access to healthcare due to lockdowns? I mean for example our rationale "to prevent hospitals being overrun" as if our health system was functioning before with waiting lists and insane number of people on troleys. But hey, at least people on troleys were in hospital and had a chance to get treatment they needed. Excess mortality is quite understandable as we and most of other countries emptied hospitals literaly overnight and scared people from seeking treatment. Good luck trying to find a doctor who will agree to see you in person. All this is bigger contributor to excess death than any corona virus could even dream of.

i saw my GP last week - no prob - we just wore masks etc

kelso00

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you not realise that there is a 2nd wave coming, the hospitals are going to be overwhelmed, 50000 will die.

We need to lockdown for another year at least and pay people more than 350 as it’s not enough.

And covid payment should be increased with 50e with every wave due to growing prices of drink and take away.


Being serious, I'm lucky enough to wfh and I can do it from anywhere. I also have relatives in the other country opening now so as soon as flights start I'm off until August at least. Watching other fellow EU nations getting back to normal and listening to Tony and Simon same time is unbearable.

Dr. Bre

greensheep777 wrote: »

Along with the fact that, as a nation, we're most comfortable when we're miserable? Maybe because it feels familiar? We also love moralising over others and their actions. There was a time you had to be an unmarried mother to get so much judgement and vitriol off other people. Now you just have to go more than 5km away from your house.

Don’t forget people being criticised for going for 2 walks