Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

People are really struggling to comprehend the correlation between a high testing rate and a high positive case rate.

I've given up trying up trying to help people understand however

Not sure what point your trying to make here? Of course case count is going to be higher the more testing you do. Some of those countries are testing more than us and some less than us though. The criteria in itself is undeniably objective.

Lundstram

Lundstram wrote: »

I'm in Manchester at the moment. Pubs open, in a lot of places there is a QR code you must scan and fill out a form before you can enter. Places well marked out for SD and there's staff constantly sanitising furniture.

No such forward thinking in Ireland, though. Just shut them and let the economy go to sh1t.

Been so successful in the UK in preventing economic damage

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/10/uk-economy-likely-to-suffer-worst-covid-19-damage-says-oecd

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-economy-set-to-shrink-8-5-due-to-pandemic-1.4298159

TaurenDruid

setanta1984 wrote: »

Are you really going to try and claim punishment of 6 months in prison for buying a loaf of bread in centra without having your face covered is not draconian? Seriously? Regardless of whether you agree with it that is almost a textbook definition of draconian.

The fact there isn't protests etc. is exactly my point and what I can't understand, how people are even welcoming this kind of indefinite mandate.

There is nothing "Draconian" about sticking a mask on for the 2 minutes it'll take you to buy a loaf of bread. It costs you literally nothing, and is literally helping save lives.

Expecting everyone else to put up with you potentially infecting them shows you've no idea what the social contract means.

pjohnson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Been so successful in the UK in preventing economic damage

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/10/uk-economy-likely-to-suffer-worst-covid-19-damage-says-oecd

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-economy-set-to-shrink-8-5-due-to-pandemic-1.4298159

So opening pubs without needing a meal hasnt magically saved the English economy?

Well who'da thunk that!

TaurenDruid

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I thought it was also funny when it was reported yesterday many healthcare workers turned up to work while Covid positive for fear of losing the overtime premium.

You think it's funny that a frontline healthcare worker can't afford to house and feed themselves on basic salary? Ok... odd sense of humour.

setanta1984

TaurenDruid wrote: »

There is nothing "Draconian" about sticking a mask on for the 2 minutes it'll take you to buy a loaf of bread.

Writing it into law, that you can go to prison for 6 months if you don't, is.

setanta1984

setanta1984 wrote: »

Writing it into law, that you can go to prison for 6 months if you don't, is.

How many people would you think will go to prison for not wearing a mask?

Also, what provision are they using for this? Genuine question

dalyboy

TaurenDruid wrote: »

You think it's funny that a frontline healthcare worker can't afford to house and feed themselves on basic salary? Ok... odd sense of humour.

Your right , it’s not funny. It’s tragic. These so called hero’s infecting sick and vulnerable people is obviously fine in your world

facehugger99

iamwhoiam wrote: »

What is your point ? other nurses from other hospitals are worn out and burnt out after months of working in PPE under severe pressure

Pressure from what? The wards, admissions and A&E have never been so quiet.

My friend also noted, that the frontline staff who had declared themselves to be in the vulnerable category, were without exception the most work-shy layabouts.

I'm sure the correlation was entirely coincidental though.

TaurenDruid

setanta1984 wrote: »

Writing it into law, that you can go to prison for 6 months if you don't, is.

Nah. It's standard. Read pretty much any statute. There'll always be a so-called "draconian" maximum fine or prison sentence, that's hardly ever applied.

The gardaí have repeatedly stated their approach to covid policing is a sliding scale starting off with polite request and education with arrest as a last resort.

It takes a special sort of prick to just refuse to wear a mask on public transport or in a shop without extenuating circumstances, especially when asked, even moreso when asked by the guards, and I'd have little sympathy. Even so, if it ever went to court, the maximum sentence would not be likely.

pjohnson

facehugger99 wrote: »

Pressure from what? The wards, admissions and A&E have never been so quiet.

My friend also noted, that the frontline staff who had declared themselves to be in the vulnerable category, were without exception the most work-shy layabouts.

I'm sure the correlation was entirely coincidental though.

This the same nursing "friend" who has decided to go on hols?

TaurenDruid

dalyboy wrote: »

Your right , it’s not funny. It’s tragic. These so called hero’s infecting sick and vulnerable people is obviously fine in your world

You may have gone for the completely other end of the stick, there...

Not condoning it for a minute, but I can at least understand why, say, a porter on less than €30k a year before tax and a rent of €1800/month might not want their overtime to suddenly disappear.

thegetawaycar

The tin foil hat brigade out in force in this thread.

Loads of people moaning about wearing a face covering because it's the Government trying to control us yet they want a greenlist for foreign travel so they can go to Spain where mask are mandatory in all public spaces (in most regions).
Then complaining there is a punishment for breaking the law (maximum punishment does not mean everyone will get that punishment and it was made clear Gardai involvement is a last resort), sure let's have loads of laws where there's no penalty for breaking them, that seems sensible.

We removed most restrictions and people have acted like there is no virus so the Government pull back (even if it's just as an awareness tool it's the correct thing to do) it hopefully reaffirms the fact that we need to remain aware and vigilant that we are still in a pandemic.

Hopefully it's worked and we can keep numbers low over the next few months as once Flu season kicks in at the same time I expect a complete **** show.

KindOfIrish

[QUOTE=TaurenDruid;114102532]There is nothing "Draconian" about sticking a mask on for the 2 minutes it'll take you to buy a loaf of bread. It costs you literally nothing, and is literally helping save lives.

Expecting everyone else to put up with you potentially infecting them shows you've no idea what the social contract means.[/QUOTE]

There is nothing "Draconian" to close private businesses for months.
There is nothing "Draconian" to deny children education.
There is nothing "Draconian" to restrict citizen's movements to 5 km.
There is nothing "Draconian" to bar people from seeing their family for months.
There is nothing "Draconian" to restrict people's right for work.
There is nothing "Draconian" to restrict travel abroad.
Etc.
Everything is rosy on our blessed island under supervision of our wise leaders!

KindOfIrish

KindOfIrish wrote: »

There is nothing "Draconian" to close private businesses for months.
There is nothing "Draconian" to deny children education.
There is nothing "Draconian" to restrict citizen's movements to 5 km.
There is nothing "Draconian" to bar people from seeing their family for months.
There is nothing "Draconian" to restrict people's right for work.
There is nothing "Draconian" to restrict travel abroad.
Etc.
Everything is rosy on our blessed island under supervision of our wise leaders!

Its not Draconian if its proportional to the risk. Now we can argue the risk and there a lots of varying views, however the actions themselves are only Draconian if you accept the proposition the the risk is massively overblown

niallo27

Multipass wrote: »

This whole green list business is such nonsense. After months of not being able to walk outside more than 5km because of ‘danger’, it’s now suddenly ok to sit jammed in a sardine can full of people breathing the same air. Oh but they’re breathing it through magical masks, so that’s just fine. It’s mass insanity at this stage.

I though planes were freezing these days due to new filtration systems, i presume its very safe from all i have heard.

Multipass

niallo27 wrote: »

I though planes were freezing these days due to new filtration systems, i presume its very safe from all i have heard.

Amazing, maybe those filtration systems will be installed in health centres so we can start cancer screening up again. Safety has become entirely a matter of opinion these days.

Allinall

Multipass wrote: »

This whole green list business is such nonsense. After months of not being able to walk outside more than 5km because of ‘danger’, it’s now suddenly ok to sit jammed in a sardine can full of people breathing the same air. Oh but they’re breathing it through magical masks, so that’s just fine. It’s mass insanity at this stage.

Where did you hear this?

FintanMcluskey

TaurenDruid wrote: »

You may have gone for the completely other end of the stick, there...

Not condoning it for a minute, but I can at least understand why, say, a porter on less than €30k a year before tax and a rent of €1800/month might not want their overtime to suddenly disappear.

I would suggest someone with a gross salary of 30k should perhap's choose not to spend over 21k of that renting an apartment in Dublin city centre.

Its grossly irresponsible as a health care worker to turn up to work infected with the virus all because the overtime premium is at risk.

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I would suggest someone with a gross salary of 30k should perhap's choose not to spend over 21k of that renting an apartment in Dublin city centre.

Its grossly irresponsible as a health care worker to turn up to work infected with the virus all because the overtime premium is at risk.

This is a rare one Fintan, something I agree with you on

_Whimsical_

Dr Gabrielle Colleran said on TV last night that Ireland's acute hospitals hit 95% capacity last week, a week that is traditionally the quietest week in Irish hospitals and when rotas are swapped.

It doesn't bode well at all for a second wave, or even a modest spike that would eat up more beds and medical personnel time.

It's not just getting Covid you have to worry about if the situation has got to that point. It's getting anything at all that would require hospital care - inpatient or outpatient. It's really the threshold we have to watch and everything else must be secondary. Time for us all to forget relaxing restrictions and think about seriously tightening things up.

_Whimsical_

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Dr Gabrielle Colleran said on TV last night that Ireland's acute hospitals hit 95% capacity last week, a week that is traditionally the quietest week in Irish hospitals and when rotas are swapped.

It doesn't bode well at all for a second wave, or even a modest spike that would eat up more beds and medical personnel time.

It's not just getting Covid you have to worry about if the situation has got to that point. It's getting anything at all that would require hospital care - inpatient or outpatient. It's really the threshold we have to watch and everything else must be secondary. Time for us all to forget relaxing restrictions and think about seriously tightening things up.

Hospitals are playing catch up. If they weren't near capacity I'd be asking why not. Very few covid related cases. Also the measures that will remain in place even in phase 4 will also reduce Flu, colds, Noravirus, Rotavirus and numerous other viral and bacterial infections that result in hospitalisations every year

Well, the Higher Education plan has been announced today and requires 2 metre distancing at lectures.

If its 2M for students, then it has to be 2M for primary and secondary also.

Which means schools won't be reopening in September. At least nowhere close to capacity.
Maybe kids will get 1 day a week.

How long can we afford not to properly educate our children?

boggerman1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, the Higher Education plan has been announced today and requires 2 metre distancing at lectures.

If its 2M for students, then it has to be 2M for primary and secondary also.

Which means schools won't be reopening in September. At least nowhere close to capacity.
Maybe kids will get 1 day a week.

How long can we afford not to properly educate our children?

And so the insanity continues.just close down the country altogether and be done with it.turn the state into a welfare state

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, the Higher Education plan has been announced today and requires 2 metre distancing at lectures.

If its 2M for students, then it has to be 2M for primary and secondary also.

Which means schools won't be reopening in September. At least nowhere close to capacity.
Maybe kids will get 1 day a week.

How long can we afford not to properly educate our children?

Third level lectures can easily take place on line which is why you minimise risk where you can. There will be separate arrangements for younger kids, and the indications I have seen suggest under 10's at least will not be social distancing. Unless the unions kick up looking for more holidays

Multipass

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, the Higher Education plan has been announced today and requires 2 metre distancing at lectures.

If its 2M for students, then it has to be 2M for primary and secondary also.

Which means schools won't be reopening in September. At least nowhere close to capacity.
Maybe kids will get 1 day a week.

How long can we afford not to properly educate our children?

We’re just on self destruct now, it’s gone beyond stupid. And the smart students who are trying to get out of this country to study abroad can’t do so because of the delay in releasing the leaving cert results. Utter sh*t show.

Golf is my Game

KrustyUCC wrote: »

The issue is with thinking like yours and the one size fits all approach

The issue with thinking like yours is thinking laws don't can be not one size fits all. It would be great if you could have what's possible as the best in every scenario but you can't write laws like that. Theirs always going to be the person saying why or we restricted, there's no bother if we did this or that, we could have more people, it's even safer than X so why can't it be open etc. But have have to write them to cover everything even the worst case. So that's why.

tobefrank321

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, the Higher Education plan has been announced today and requires 2 metre distancing at lectures.

If its 2M for students, then it has to be 2M for primary and secondary also.

Which means schools won't be reopening in September. At least nowhere close to capacity.
Maybe kids will get 1 day a week.

How long can we afford not to properly educate our children?

There is something seriously wrong if schools and the dept of education didn't come up with several contingency plans over the summer, 1 m, 2 m, rotating classrooms and as a last resort online only. To the point where kids education is unaffected.

But I'm guessing it will turn into another mess, where kids education suffer.

Governments in this country always wait for the disaster to happen and then try to claim credit for cleaning up the mess they created.

Golf is my Game

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its not Draconian if its proportional to the risk. Now we can argue the risk and there a lots of varying views, however the actions themselves are only Draconian if you accept the proposition the the risk is massively overblown

We can have varying views fair enough, but really the most of them don't matter because the only one that does is the one that feeds into the ministers making the laws. So the rest of us half to go with that as Therese no point having every one doing their own thing for their views. That's just a mess then.

TaurenDruid

KindOfIrish wrote: »

There is nothing "Draconian" to close private businesses for months.
There is nothing "Draconian" to deny children education.
There is nothing "Draconian" to restrict citizen's movements to 5 km.
There is nothing "Draconian" to bar people from seeing their family for months.
There is nothing "Draconian" to restrict people's right for work.
There is nothing "Draconian" to restrict travel abroad.
Etc.
Everything is rosy on our blessed island under supervision of our wise leaders!

All of those measures (without your hyperbole) were introduced as a direct result of the perceived risk from an uncontrolled pandemic.

As we managed to flatten the curve successfully - thanks in large part to those measures - all of those restrictions have been lifted, bar the opening of some businesses.

Given the recent spike in the R number, that caution seems warranted.

Did our "wise leaders" get everything right? Hell no. Could they have done better? With hindsight, yes. They could have closed our borders to continental Europe and especially northern Italy when the Six Nations match with Italy was cancelled. They could have closed the ports to the UK and/or insisted on testing around the time of Cheltenham. That might actually have been classed as "draconian" but it would have drastically reduced our infection and death numbers.