Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

FintanMcluskey

Arghus wrote: »

Now, now. Don't try to derail the conversation. You know, or at least you should know, where I'm referring too.

Lets stop the smoke and mirrors.

Which states are you referring to?

Arghus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Lets stop the smoke and mirrors.

Which states are you referring to?

The United States of America Fintan.

FintanMcluskey

fr336 wrote: »

If it affected people who were younger than you, would that be okay?

It does affect people younger than me.

Well to say affect is a strange way to describe it.

Most are actually asymptomatic and haven't a clue they have it, but they have to get a test through contact tracing etc to confirm they have the virus.

This positive test will then be communicated to the public via some flute on a public service broadcast in a finger wagging style.

The "sick" person will then self isolate for 2 weeks, while reading articles about "top doctor's" who are very concerned at a rise in Covid 19 cases among the young.

polesheep

Arghus wrote: »

Okay, that's a great dissection of America's many societal ills.

But what relevance has that got in relation to rising case numbers and deaths in the states once they eased their restrictions too quickly?

I'm not sure it has anything to do with restrictions, either imposed or eased. My son is living there and he told me recently that he is dumbstruck at what he has seen. Elderly, obese, those with co-morbidities and often people who fit all three categories, walking/waddling around as though the virus doesn't even exist. They might as well wear a sign saying "I'm weak, come and get me".

charlie14

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Luckily we have one European country that performed quite well with no lockdown.

Of course they had a lockdown, or so you said when the numbers didnt correlate to that part of your argument.

Then Charlie said they had a lockdown and excess deaths while trying to prove a point that lockdowns prevent excess deaths.

I honestly think drinking heavily on a Wednesday afternoon isnt the answer

I know you are rattling off posts here as if there was a prize going Fintan, but try reading reading them rather than misquote them. I did not say they had a lockdown. I said the had, and still do have, restrictions. To see how in-effective those restriction were in comparison to lockdown, you only have to look at Sweden`s Nordic neighbours. All three of which used lockdown.

On excessive deaths you appear to have totally missed the point. Sweden`s excess deaths are 9,500. Their reported Covid-19 deaths for the same period are 5,500.
That leaves 4,000 excess deaths over and above Sweden`s Covid-19 reported deaths.
I asked you already, but with your rate of rattling off posts you may have missed it.
Have you any possible explanation for this very high anomaly ?

Arghus

polesheep wrote: »

I'm not sure it has anything to do with restrictions, either imposed or eased. My son is living there and he told me recently that he is dumbstruck at what he has seen. Elderly, obese, those with co-morbidities and often people who fit all three categories, walking/waddling around as though the virus doesn't even exist. They might as well wear a sign saying "I'm weak, come and get me".

It is a fact that after cases and deaths first fell, restrictions and stay at home orders were lifted - and then cases began once again to rise and now deaths are also starting to rise again. There's a strong casual link there that is very hard to deny. Even though, I know, ye will try.

The situation you describe there sounds like people being careless and not obeying restrictions. That's not an argument against them, it actually argues for the opposite: if people pay heed to them there's less danger

FintanMcluskey

charlie14 wrote: »

I know you are rattling off posts here as if there was a prize going Fintan, but try reading reading them rather than misquote them

Covid has really indoctrinated hyprocracy into many misguided opinions.

You are guilty of the same Charlie, Im trying to instill a sense of pragmatism and quench the fire of hysteria and misery many are guilty of adding fuel too.

Excess deaths can be calculated at the year end.

Many vulnerable souls were lost in a short period of time leaving stronger healthy people to survive.

The rising positive case numbers are great news, its lowering the CFR as it becomes more treatable and many are asymptomatic.

The world wont end just yet, although some are clinging to that notion it seem's

Arghus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Covid has really indoctrinated hyprocracy into many misguided opinions.

You are guilty of the same Charlie, Im trying to instill a sense of pragmatism and quench the fire of hysteria and misery many are guilty of adding fuel too.

Excess deaths can be calculated at the year end.

Many vulnerable souls were lost in a short period of time leaving stronger healthy people to survive.

The rising positive case numbers are great news, its lowering the CFR as it becomes more treatable and many are asymptomatic.

The world wont end just yet, although some are clinging to that notion it seem's

Bingo.

Thread has gone full Trump.

polesheep

Arghus wrote: »

It is a fact that after cases and deaths first fell, restrictions and stay at home orders were lifted - and then cases began once again to rise and now deaths are also starting to rise again. There's a strong casual link there that is very hard to deny. Even though, I know, ye will try.

The situation you describe there sounds like people being careless and not obeying restrictions. That's not an argument against them, it actually argues for the opposite: if people pay heed to them there's less danger

Nope. It demonstrates that the people who really should be restricted pay no heed to them. And it indicates that rising deaths tallies with exposure of the vulnerable.

Arghus

polesheep wrote: »

Nope. It demonstrates that the people who really should be restricted pay no heed to them. And it indicates that rising deaths tallies with exposure of the vulnerable.

Eh, yeah, that is exactly what I'm saying?

polesheep

Arghus wrote: »

Eh, yeah, that is exactly what I'm saying?

You have been in favour of restrictions for all.

Arghus

polesheep wrote: »

You have been in favour of restrictions for all.

That's right.

FintanMcluskey

polesheep wrote: »

You have been in favour of restrictions for all.

That and the fact Sweden had lockdown it seem's.

Arghus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

That and the fact Sweden had lockdown it seem's.

No, Fintan I literally never said that.

Can you not debate honestly?

polesheep

Arghus wrote: »

That's right.

And yet when I said that it is the old and vulnerable who should really be restricted, you say that's what you've been saying?

Arghus

polesheep wrote: »

And yet when I said that it is the old and vulnerable who should really be restricted, you say that's what you've been saying?

No, to be fair, you didn't say that: you said people who were vulnerable to the disease were out and about and not paying heed to the dangers posed by the virus.

Edit: Sorry, I apologise you did make that qualification in your second response. But I still don't agree with your central point.

CalamariFritti

He considers us all vulnerable. Was obvious.

Anyway. Maybe you two should get a room? Sorry not for me to say. Its just looks weird. You'll be both looking at that tomorrow thinking wtf?

the corpo

The Flaming Lips have figured out how we can have gigs again 8)

John O.Groats

Arghus wrote: »

Bingo.

Thread has gone full Trump.

Well not quite. He didn`t describe it as being tremendous news. Otherwise you are quite correct.

skelly22

Arghus wrote: »

Can't help but notice that you've completely avoided explaining away the situation in the United States Fintan.

It's very difficult to explain away the increase in cases in the USA. Sure, the man on the telly told me it was true, so it must be true!

He also told me that masks were a complete waste of time so....oh wait, no he's actually telling me now that I'm an idiot and a selfish pr!ck if I don't wear one.

Ah yes....the man on the telly. He backs up every single stat the lockdown merchants need backing up. Wakey wakey!

0.0001% of the population are in hospital with Covid.
All the stats back up how mild the illness is. The deaths have completely dropped off since we got the nursing home clusters under control.

It will be pathetic if we try to push phase 4 back again. Time to start living again.

charlie14

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Covid has really indoctrinated hyprocracy into many misguided opinions.

You are guilty of the same Charlie, Im trying to instill a sense of pragmatism and quench the fire of hysteria and misery many are guilty of adding fuel too.

Excess deaths can be calculated at the year end.

Many vulnerable souls were lost in a short period of time leaving stronger healthy people to survive.

The rising positive case numbers are great news, its lowering the CFR as it becomes more treatable and many are asymptomatic.

The world wont end just yet, although some are clinging to that notion it seem's

For your sake if only the highlighted was true Fintan.
Unfortunately it is not.
What you are doing is giving opinions as if they were facts.


While you are entitled to your opinion Fintan, you are not entitled to your own facts.
The fact that Sweden`s excess deaths for the first half of this year are 4,000 above and beyond their Covid-19 deaths means you do not have to wait until the end of the year. They have already been calculated by Sweden themselves.
They are a matter of public record so why are you attempting to avoid this fact ?

You appear to be a great supporter of culling the over 65`s Fintan, and this virus is no big deal because in your opinion the are predominately the group that it is killing and having little effect on other age groups.
Your own figures on USA deaths show how much your opinion is at variance with the facts.

Why do you believe positive rising cases are good Fintan ?
They may be good for those testing vaccines, but then you really have little interest in vaccines
Other than that rising number are not good for anyone.
That is unless you are still a believer in herd immunity.
But that could not still be possible Fintan could it when we now know the facts on antibody tests from your Utopia of that experiment, Sweden ?

TaurenDruid

Deleted User wrote: »

All the stats back up how mild the illness is. The deaths have completely dropped off since we got the nursing home clusters under control.

No, they really don't. The illness is mild for some, and has long-lasting effects for others, that go on for literally months, and kills some.

And correlation does not imply causation. The numbers have dropped off since I started buying a breakfast roll in the local Spar on my two days a week in the office, but that's not the reason for the falling numbers, either.

FintanMcluskey

charlie14 wrote: »

For your sake if only the highlighted was true Fintan.
Unfortunately it is not.
What you are doing is giving opinions as if they were facts.


While you are entitled to your opinion Fintan, you are not entitled to your own facts.
The fact that Sweden`s excess deaths for the first half of this year are 4,000 above and beyond their Covid-19 deaths means you do not have to wait until the end of the year. They have already been calculated by Sweden themselves.
They are a matter of public record so why are you attempting to avoid this fact ?

You appear to be a great supporter of culling the over 65`s Fintan, and this virus is no big deal because in your opinion the are predominately the group that it is killing and having little effect on other age groups.
Your own figures on USA deaths show how much your opinion is at variance with the facts.

Why do you believe positive rising cases are good Fintan ?
They may be good for those testing vaccines, but then you really have little interest in vaccines
Other than that rising number are not good for anyone.
That is unless you are still a believer in herd immunity.
But that could not still be possible Fintan could it when we now know the facts on antibody tests from your Utopia of that experiment, Sweden ?

The drivel in this presented as fact is alarming.

I dont have time today to quench the fire's of hysteria you continue to light on this forum, you seem to want this to be worse than it is and I'm struggling to understand why.

So much has been learned since it first appeared on this island about who its dangerous too and who its not, but your ignoring that, spouting uneducated ramblings about anti body testing, and talking about Sweden having excess deaths with restrictions while trying to prove a link between restrictions and low death rate.

TaurenDruid

TaurenDruid wrote: »

No, they really don't. The illness is mild for some, and has long-lasting effects for others, that go on for literally months, and kills some.

And correlation does not imply causation. The numbers have dropped off since I started buying a breakfast roll in the local Spar on my two days a week in the office, but that's not the reason for the falling numbers, either.

Long lasting? The illness came on the scene this year. We won't know if there are any long term effects for some time. Some people feeling a bit tired for a few weeks is not a long lasting effect. 0.00001% losing a limb is not something I am concerned about either.

Since the nursing home clusters disappeared, we have very few deaths.

Just a shame we didn't think the nursing homes seriously early on and we knew the demographic that would be impacted.

Loafing Oaf

Deleted User wrote: »

Long lasting? The illness came on the scene this year. We won't know if there are any long term effects for some time.

But you can't prove there won't be at this stage. All we can do is look at the early signs.
Two studies from Germany paint a sobering picture of the toll that Covid-19 takes on the heart, raising the specter of long-term damage after people recover, even if their illness was not severe enough to require hospitalization.
Not sure about you, but any suggestion of 'cardiac problems' is not something I would brush off lightly...

TaurenDruid

Deleted User wrote: »

Long lasting? The illness came on the scene this year. We won't know if there are any long term effects for some time. Some people feeling a bit tired for a few weeks is not a long lasting effect.

It is not "some people feeling a bit tired a few weeks."

If only it was. I'm feeling "a bit tired" for the last couple of months, as more most of my friends and family, but that's down to Covid only in the sense that our sleep patterns have been severely disrupted and it's hard to switch off when working from home.

What it is, is a hell of a lot of otherwise young, healthy people suffering chronic post-viral fatigue syndrome, for months. And people also developing longer term lung, heart and kidney problems.

Up to 2/3rds of healthcare workers who've recovered from Covid got post-viral fatigue. It knocks you for six. It's exhausting. And it can last months. https://www.inmo.ie/Home/Index/217/13598

KindOfIrish

Front page of RTE website:

"Six confirmed cases of COVID-19 in Irish hospitals."

and

"Pubs not complying should feel full force of law."

SIX cases! Full force of law! I told you, this country totally and irreversibly gone mad:(

KindOfIrish

KindOfIrish wrote: »

Front page of RTE website:

"Six confirmed cases of COVID-19 in Irish hospitals."

and

"Pubs not complying should feel full force of law."

SIX cases! Full force of law! I told you, this country totally and irreversibly gone mad:(

Remember when they told us we had to lockdown because they we don't want the hospitals to get overwhelmed

Hospital were never overwhelmed and numbers have been dropping since late April.

I don't know if we'll get lower than 6 but maybe we will get to 0. Typical Ireland, we probably still won't reopen anyways.

AdamD

At the current trend we're probably not far from 0, the ones in ICU can take a long time to get through it and be discharged.

Though the cases have risen slightly in recent weeks so small amounts of hospitalisations may follow? Either way we're a long long way off being overwhelmed, and its difficult to see how we could get overwhelmed from this point when we didn't previously.

I think people forget the virus was here for weeks before we fully knew and acted on it. So it was spreading in those weeks where we had everyone in offices, on full public transport, in packed pubs and clubs, mass gatherings like weddings and sports events. I just don't see how its going to spread in the same manner given our current environment. Even just having office workers at home surely makes a substantial difference?