Is America losing its allure?

Flickerfusion

I think what we’re looking at is the gloss wearing off. In previous eras, the US put its best foot forward on the world stage and was able to command a degree of respect and economically there was far more of a gap between the US and Europe or almost anywhere else, in part because of the aftermath of WWII on this side of be Atlantic which had a huge impact on levels of wealth.

Things have evened out a lot and amongst developed countries and they’re continuing to do so.

If you go to the USA now, things like cars, products, shopping and all of that stuff isn’t really all that different. If you went there on the 1960s or 70s it really was. If you went there in the 40s and 50s they were like a parallel universe and that’s largely the era when most Europeans had a very positive and glamorous image of the place. A sort of golden Hollywood view of the US.

I think it’s unfair to paint the USA as all bad. It has a lot of positives - generally very open and friendly (beyond the border guards and police). People are willing to chat and are enthusiastic about life in general in life experience.

It also has scale - single language and a huge internal market and ability to move around without fuss, something Europe has only had since the 1990s in a serious way (and without the single language).

In many ways Ireland in the EU nowadays has some of that vibe - huge place you can go explore and move around and just be part of, if you want.

It’s one of the tragedies of Brexit to me. One technical half of the U.K. took itself back to an era when it was much, much smaller through some kind of imagined history of how the empire never actually worked and threw away easy access to Europe.

But I think you’re really looking at the US’ soft power fading away and that’s because of toxic politics and the “shining city on the hill” having been found to actually be better looked at from far away.

What I think has and will continue to be jarring for Americans at all levels is that loss of global soft power. Trump has accelerated that by threats of trade wars, lashing out (verbally) at neighbours and allies and just generally spewing nasty bile online both targeting domestic and overseas audiences.

The kind of influence they had was very hard won and it will take a long time to repair that, even if it’s ever possible to.

Keyzer

Keyzer wrote: »

You should at least cite the quote instead of passing it off as your own.

George Carlin for anyone who is interested.

I'd give a substantial amount to hear his opinion on 2020 America.

Randy Archer

mr_fegelien wrote: »

When I first came to Ireland in 2009, many teachers, classmates, and adults always talked about moving to the States in the future for a better life. People even envied me for living there and asked "Why the **** did you come to this kip called Ireland?".

Fast forward 11 years now, it seems the tone has completely changed. Sure, people still go there, but the numbers are fewer. After the mass shootings like Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, Isla Vista, the spying revelations by Snowden, the police brutality etc... has America became a first world nation relegated to third world status?

Third world status ? As in corruption and questionable human rights (ie racism ,spying n surveillance on civilians )

Nah, that was always there

There are a lot of great things about the US . It’s like a continent rather than one country, in a way. Besides, we love all the idiots and crack pots that come from there. Sure we have our own idiots but it’s cringeworthy

Things have really being ****ed up since Bush Junior (I don’t really know or get ‘Merica before him, obviously I remember Bill but his career was getting a blow Job from Monica (ledge) , Bosnia War and Northern Ireland ,I didn’t pay attention to the rest

I remember the Yanks in the pub circa 2001 -2003 all nice and rather annoyed and apologetic for being American due to Bush (obviously others weren’t that way as they knew they could do sfa about it) Don’t know, kinda prefer the loud mouth know nothings whose understanding of the world outside their State is laughable. Least ya know where they are coming from

The obsession with race and ethnicity is rather uncomfortable,in the US . Everyone waffling about being either African American (while not being able to pick out where in Africa their clan might be from or when they came over ) ,Irish American Or Italian American (and knowing sfa about the place ) Etc, rather than America . You don’t really hear the Aussies go on like that and they have some racism issues with the natives and they are also an immigrant nation . In basketball there’s was the whinging about the lack of white Americans doing well and ignoring the fact that white Europeans succeed in the league

You say black Americans are not racist, when they most certainly can be and you’d shunned .

MAYBe WITH SOCIAL MEDIA and YouTube etc the magnify glass highlights America more ? Some people still like it while others aren’t so hot about it

Seems like a toxic place in parts and thus was before The Donald

The militarism ,symbols and propaganda that creeped into the NFL, NBA etc since 9/11 is nauseating. Watching ore game interviews and some gob****e (a player ) declaring that a nfl game is like being at war ..ffs . Dead serious too .

So apparently the lads in Iraq n Afghanistan were fighting for US freedom and even for the West . Odd , don’t recall anyone in Mid West USA being threatened of invasion . With the advent of digital radio and streams, listening to US radio stations is easy now. My god, you could easily see how people, even today can be a bit brain washed as to the position of the US and what people outside think

I can get the British army presence in both football n horse racing as they played a huge role in the promotion of these sports in the colonies , the the excessive presence of the US military at sport events since 9/11 was being ridiculous

c.p.w.g.w

Rodin wrote: »

I've always been a believer that it doesn't matter what's in someone else's pocket. The only thing that matters to me personally is what's in my own pocket.

The 'poor' in Ireland have never been so well off.

But if like the States, the poor are really poor what will typically happen is that crime increases, drug/alcohol abuse increases, people leave education sooner...

It all leads to poorer society that affects everybody else...well it doesn't really affect the top 2% of the population

partyguinness

Interesting that the dirt poorest parts of the US vote Republican. The very party whose very policies make the poor poorer.

Seamai

Edgware wrote: »

I agree about England as I am a regular visitor to cities like London Birmingham Liverpool and big towns. You can almost feel the poverty. Charity shops/Bookies in High Streets.
Poor standard of clothing, high levels of obesity, smoking, alcohol

What is it with charity shops in the UK? There seems to be an awful lot of the compared to here. In the last year staying with friend in a well healed part of Edinburgh and on business a few times in what I would consider well off dormitory towns around London and I couldn't help but notice there seemed to be at least on on every street if not more.

Randy Archer

Maybe The lads from South Park captured the US the best with the brilliant fil, Team America World Police. Remember the funny dialogue about the differences between dicks, assholes and pussies . America is the dick but he isn’t as bad as the pussies and assholes

Randy Archer

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I agree. I cannot stand those people, the ones with the Hollister clothes and talking with an accent. I hear this kinda thing and I feel like reminding them that they are from Dunmanway….not San Francisco.

I think that the ideal Ireland that we would have, the Ireland that we dreamed of, would be the home of a people who valued material wealth only as a basis for right living, of a people who, satisfied with frugal comfort, devoted their leisure to the things of the spirit - a land whose countryside would be bright with cosy homesteads, whose fields and villages would be joyous with the sounds of industry, with the romping of sturdy children, the contest of athletic youths and the laughter of happy maidens, whose fire sides would be forums for the wisdom of serene old age. The home, in short, of a people living the life that God desires that men should live.

Up Dev, up the Republic

c.p.w.g.w

partyguinness wrote: »

Interesting that the dirt poorest parts of the US vote Republican. The very party whose very policies make the poor poorer.

The poorest of the poor are typically less educated, Republicans use easy to understand terms and stay away from fancy terminology...

So the poorest see them as the party that speaks for them because they can relate...

Trump is said to have the literacy of of a 4th grader...

Whereas Obama and Sanders are very eloquent speakers and use words that most college students would occasionally need to look up...

CrankyHaus

partyguinness wrote: »

Interesting that the dirt poorest parts of the US vote Republican. The very party whose very policies make the poor poorer.

There's no doubt that prejudice and lack of education play a significant role but the Democrats, nominally the party of the Left, have done a terrible job reaching out to people in those states.
When you throw a large demographic on the scrapheap, cultural as well as economic, you can't complain when they vote for someone else who at least claims to represent them.

iamstop

The two party system in the US is broken and a sham anyway.

the.red.baron

iamstop wrote: »

The two party system in the US is broken and a sham anyway.

its no more of a sham than the one party system we have here


having spent some time there life is great if you have a bob in your pocket and **** enough if you don't


much the same as anywhere else


I know we like to think we are great here, but we are pretty **** too if you take a second to think about it

TheBoyConor

We have a 2 party system. You can be pro treaty or anti treaty.

jimgoose

the.red.baron wrote: »

its no more of a sham than the one party system we have here...

The single-member, first-past-the-post congressional system over there, as well as the Electoral College system, is a very different animal than proportional representation in Ireland. PR is largely the reason that we have a plethora of lefty/oddball outfits here like Labour, SF, the Greens et al, as well as the usual two cheeks of the same Centre-Right arse. :pac:

Flickerfusion

TheBoyConor wrote: »

We have a 2 party system. You can be pro treaty or anti treaty.

We don’t have a two party system.

You even vote for multiple parties simultaneously in PR-STV, ranking your preferences on ballots, and the sum of the seats won by the two largest parties doesn’t even give them an overall majority.

It could be less like a two party system!

It also has an extremely low bar to both getting on the ballot and attaining a seat and even high office, as you can see by the range of representatives that get elected in the smaller parties and as independents.

Most of those people wouldn’t even be heard of in a two party, first past the post system.

TheBoyConor

Yeah but it is overwhelmingly dominated by the 2 civil war parties. The likes of Labour, SF, etc etc are only ever going to be a third tit.

Mr. CooL ICE

mr_fegelien wrote: »

The interesting thing though is that Irish people claim to have a higher quality of life, but we have extremely high rates of alcoholism.

Maybe America's glass of wine/bottle of beer is a joint but it seems that drug use is much less than it is here (though they have a prescription painkilller epidemic).

My question is if stress is so low, why do we have such high rates of alcohol abuse.

Hey, some of us just really, really, really love our pints

friendlyfun

I think it is definitely losing its allure. People don't have the same safety nets in the US like they have in Ireland, Uk, Norway, Sweden etc. a lot of people would be appalled by their mass gun violence, obesity, failing infrastructure, racial tensions, capital punishment and justice system in general (including for profit prisons).Its clearly a dysfunctional country.

Flickerfusion

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Yeah but it is overwhelmingly dominated by the 2 civil war parties. The likes of Labour, SF, etc etc are only ever going to be a third tit.

Sinn Fein have 37 seats, Fianna Fáil have 37 seats, Fine Gael have 35 seats.

Does that look anything like a 2 party system ?!

It’s not remotely comparable to the US or UK (Westminster) systems and it’s become ever more multiparty focused as the civil war mentality (which is an a creature of the electorate not the mechanics of the election system) has faded away. The FF/FG loyalties have largely disappeared. It’s a far more choosy electorate and we are not restricted to voting for one or the other party, you rank your choices.

Fianna Fáil (37)
Sinn Féin (37)
Fine Gael (35)
Green Party (12)
Labour Party (6)
Social Democrats (6)
Solidarity–PBP (5)
Aontú (1)
Independent (20)
Ceann Comhairle
(1)

Rodin

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

That really has nothing to do with the graphs I've shown. Wealth distribution has flipped on its head in the States in the last 40 years with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. If you want to know what's causing tension in the States those graphs are a handy way of explaining it.

You've shown no graph suggesting the poor getting poorer.
Though the percentage of national income may have decreased, the national income has rocketed.
The lower percentage today is a larger amount in absolute terms.

Rodin

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

The poorest of the poor are typically less educated, Republicans use easy to understand terms and stay away from fancy terminology...

So the poorest see them as the party that speaks for them because they can relate...

Trump is said to have the literacy of of a 4th grader...

Whereas Obama and Sanders are very eloquent speakers and use words that most college students would occasionally need to look up...

The remark about Trump is simply not true.

Flickerfusion

Mr. CooL ICE wrote: »

Hey, some of us just really, really, really love our pints

It’s cultural and a difference between Europe and North America generally. The levels of alcohol consumption in all Northern European countries and France are much higher than the USA and it’s far less controversial, as you’ve really never had the puritanical approach to alcohol (except briefly in parts of Scandinavia and it didn’t work). The US most definitely has a different attitude to alcohol and it’s driven by puritain attitudes, hence prohibition being imposed and so on.

Despite all that the level of deaths due to substance use in the USA is much higher than EU countries, including Ireland.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/death-rates-substance-disorders

Madeleine Birchfield

From the viewpoint of other first world countries, America only had allure if you were rich enough.

c.p.w.g.w

Rodin wrote: »

The remark about Trump is simply not true.

Its been reported, that the language he uses is indicative of someone who has the literary of a 4th graders. It was a paper that carried out analysis on the range of vocabulary and sentence structure. They were discussing it on a late night talk show a few months back

Here's one link https://www.newsweek.com/trump-fire-and-fury-smart-genius-obama-774169?amp=1

TheBoyConor

Flickerfusion wrote: »

Sinn Fein have 37 seats, Fianna Fáil have 37 seats, Fine Gael have 35 seats.

Does that look anything like a 2 party system ?!

It’s not remotely comparable to the US or UK (Westminster) systems and it’s become ever more multiparty focused as the civil war mentality (which is an a creature of the electorate not the mechanics of the election system) has faded away. The FF/FG loyalties have largely disappeared. It’s a far more choosy electorate and we are not restricted to voting for one or the other party, you rank your choices.

The current SF position is an anomaly. It is not the usual situation. The usual arrangement is the FF or FG will be a main party in a coalition and then the numbers for a majority are made up by a one of the third fiddle parties.

There is still a huge portion of the electorate who will vote FF/FG depending on what side of the civil war their ancestors were on. Certainly, that is the way it is around my way. I know on the election campaigns canvassers don't bother calling into houses that are known to be loyal to the other party because they know they'd be wasting their time. And if your father was FG and you voted FF it would upset them big time. Up my way too you are considered as having wasted your No.1 vote if you gave it to third fiddle party.

JupiterKid

The United States is a country in serious decline. The riots, looting and protests in the wake of the heinous murder of George Floyd are actually just symptoms of this decline as is the presidency of Donald Trump.

It has certainly been since the 1990s and some would argue this decline goes right back to the Vietnam War (which divided the nation bitterly in the late 1960s) and the 1970s oil crises which brought an abrupt end to the post WW2 era of rapid economic growth and the American Dream for the middle class with a large suburban house with 2 cars in the garage and a steady well paid job/career. A friend of mine who is a historian and teaches modern history at university has told me that he believes the USA was at its economic and social peak in the early 1960s, around the time John F Kennedy was President and has been in a state of relative decline since then. The rate of decline has been quickening in recent years.

The American middle class is being squeezed relentlessly by economic and social changes - job and career security have gone out the window in recent decades, the dream of home ownership is evaporating for the younger generation (as it is throughout the Anglo-American world, Ireland and the UK included) - combine this with deep inequalities along racial lines, a highly polarized and divided populace, urban verses rural America, the coasts versus the interior, fundamentalist religion versus secular institutions - all that in the mix - plus the Covid-19 situation and 1 in 4 Americans out of a job with a complete lack of any meaningful leadership - and you have the perfect conditions for this crisis.

It is very sad to see this all unfolding. Growing up in the 1980s, America was the place my friends and I aspired to be. Ireland was a relatively poor society back then and the American lifestyle back then seemed pretty appealing. There was, as others opined, a big gap in wealth, opportunities and living standards between Ireland and the USA. TV shows such as Dallas and Dynasty etc sold the “American Dream” which was largely illusory anyway for most. I did my J1 in the States in 1996 and then lived there for a year in 1998/99 and loved my time over there, but even back then the cracks were really starting to show.

The USA is in for a long, hot summer of serious unrest. We could well be at the tipping point.

Electric Sheep

lisasimpson wrote: »

Also maternity leave is partically non existent

Untrue. The company I work for gives 4 months fully paid parental leave to both fathers and mothers.

Choose your employer wisely. It's a big country

Dr. Steve Brule

That would be an ecumenical matter.

NSAman

Jesus everyone is an expert.

I live here and I still don't understand this country.

Electric Sheep

Flickerfusion wrote: »

It’s cultural and a difference between Europe and North America generally. The levels of alcohol consumption in all Northern European countries and France are much higher than the USA and it’s far less controversial, as you’ve really never had the puritanical approach to alcohol (except briefly in parts of Scandinavia and it didn’t work). The US most definitely has a different attitude to alcohol and it’s driven by puritain attitudes, hence prohibition being imposed and so on.

Despite all that the level of deaths due to substance use in the USA is much higher than EU countries, including Ireland.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/death-rates-substance-disorders

The US is a very large place, and attitudes to alcohol consumption vary greatly by region and religious affiliation.