Is America losing its allure?

Flickerfusion

Electric Sheep wrote: »

The US is a very large place, and attitudes to alcohol consumption vary greatly by region and religious affiliation.

True, but on average they are a LOT more puritanical about drink even in the most liberal places you’ll get “carded” when you’ve grey hair.

The weirdest one I’ve ever encountered was a French family I know were in NYC about a decade ago for New Years Eve. They were in a restaurant, ordered wine. Wine arrived on table. The mother, a French lawyer in her 60s poured everyone a glass. Waitress came over demanding ID from their 20 and 21 year old “children”.

The son was under 21 and the whole family were thrown out on the street and full payment of bill demanded, on threat of calling the police!

They’ve never gone back to the US again and tell that story in absolute horror to anyone who ever brings it up.

It’s *extremely* conservative about alcohol compared to anywhere in Europe and it’s a reasonable observation.

I know I’ve been “carded” as have many of my friends and colleagues, even those who look well into their 50s and haven’t aged well.

FVP3

The problem with the US is its foreign affairs, its export of crazy ideologies, and its internal conflicts. I'd be happy to see it reduced in power.

I am sure though that millions live great lives there. Its still a beautiful country, and vast.

Rodin wrote: »

You've shown no graph suggesting the poor getting poorer.
Though the percentage of national income may have decreased, the national income has rocketed.
The lower percentage today is a larger amount in absolute terms.

No it isn't. It's about 0-15% higher since 1980 in real terms for the bottom 90%.

Seamai

Flickerfusion wrote: »

True, but on average they are a LOT more puritanical about drink even in the most liberal places you’ll get “carded” when you’ve grey hair.

The weirdest one I’ve ever encountered was a French family I know were in NYC about a decade ago for New Years Eve. They were in a restaurant, ordered wine. Wine arrived on table. The mother, a French lawyer in her 60s poured everyone a glass. Waitress came over demanding ID from their 20 and 21 year old “children”.

The son was under 21 and the whole family were thrown out on the street and full payment of bill demanded, on threat of calling the police!

They’ve never gone back to the US again and tell that story in absolute horror to anyone who ever brings it up.

It’s *extremely* conservative about alcohol compared to anywhere in Europe and it’s a reasonable observation.

I know I’ve been “carded” as have many of my friends and colleagues, even those who look well into their 50s and haven’t aged well.

I got carded several times on a visit to San Francisco in my mid 40's. I was quite bemused the first time it happened and got a little lecture of the dangers of underage drinking, however any morning we were catching a bus into the city centre without fail there would be 15/16 year old school kids smoking joints at the bus stop, my partner who grew up in the U.S and lived in SF for 10 years said it was common place.

On a slightly different point my partner moved here 20 years ago and has no desire to ever move back, he gets really annoyed with Irish people who can't get their head around why someone would leave the "promised land" and move to Ireland.

Strumms

I’ve only ever visited a few times for a holiday but I do have a large number of family who have been living there and what I am told is that it’s a brilliant country if you yourself are doing well / ok. Not so great if you fall on hard times.. luckily all our family have done very well but if they hadn’t , well from what I read it depends on what state you are living in as to the scope of help and assistance available, it ranges from thoroughly excellent to downright average, poor.

Electric Sheep

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

From the viewpoint of other first world countries, America only had allure if you were rich enough.

Or skilled enough.

Feisar

Flickerfusion wrote: »

True, but on average they are a LOT more puritanical about drink even in the most liberal places you’ll get “carded” when you’ve grey hair.

The weirdest one I’ve ever encountered was a French family I know were in NYC about a decade ago for New Years Eve. They were in a restaurant, ordered wine. Wine arrived on table. The mother, a French lawyer in her 60s poured everyone a glass. Waitress came over demanding ID from their 20 and 21 year old “children”.

The son was under 21 and the whole family were thrown out on the street and full payment of bill demanded, on threat of calling the police!

They’ve never gone back to the US again and tell that story in absolute horror to anyone who ever brings it up.

It’s *extremely* conservative about alcohol compared to anywhere in Europe and it’s a reasonable observation.

I know I’ve been “carded” as have many of my friends and colleagues, even those who look well into their 50s and haven’t aged well.

They must have been living under a rock to not know the legal age to drink is 21 in the states.

gormdubhgorm

Ireland has definitely appropriated a lot of American culture. There are many in all sorts of counties that speak with some kind of intimation American accent.
Ireland has always fawned over America in some way shape or form.

Even Pat Kenny says 'movie' or 'ain't' these days!
Personally I won't be 'super excited' when a phrase like 'howaya horse what's the craic?' becomes a thing of the past.

So I hope this loss of allure extends to American children's telly programmes. Programmes that teach generations of Irish children to speak like pure gob****es.

_Brian

Never rated the US much and did a few stints working in Dallas Texas which completely put me off.

Country of excesses, bigots and racists.

Electric Sheep

Flickerfusion wrote: »

True, but on average they are a LOT more puritanical about drink even in the most liberal places you’ll get “carded” when you’ve grey hair.

Yes, because the law regarding serving alcohol to the underaged is actually enforced in the US rather than the wink and a nod in Ireland.

NSAman

_Brian wrote: »

Never rated the US much and did a few stints working in Dallas Texas which completely put me off.

Country of excesses, bigots and racists.

Ever worked in Nigeria?

Anywhere folk can easily work two jobs will result in some jobs paying so badly that two are needed to keep head above water.

For educated / skilled folk life is good over there for the mostpart. Still, never appealed to me... I like things here.

lawrencesummers

Rodin wrote: »

The remark about Trump is simply not true.

Not true in that it’s overly generous?

Flickerfusion

Feisar wrote: »

They must have been living under a rock to not know the legal age to drink is 21 in the states.

They’re French and speak about as much English as your average American speaks French and wouldn’t have been very aware of it actually.

All they were aware of was being thrown out of a restaurant and threatened for something that in France would be as normal as ordering a cup of coffee.

It wasn’t even polite advice or anything, they were yelled at and asked to get out of the restaurant.

They wouldn’t be rushing back anyway.

Blush_01

LiquidZeb wrote: »

As recently as 2013 we had 90,000 people leaving due to emigration annually so I don't know why you're laughing at what I said. Irish people have gotten very materialistic, look at shows like room to improve where people spend thousands and thousands pimping out their McMansions. While I might've been incorrect stating that 2008 was solely due to personal debt the multiple mortgages and keeping up with the Joneses bull**** played a part too.

Since you brought up Room to Improve... I guess you didn't make the cut at screening then? Aww.

iamstop

Flickerfusion wrote: »

I know I’ve been “carded” as have many of my friends and colleagues, even those who look well into their 50s and haven’t aged well.

I was living in Chicago and my gf at the time was a bar manager/bartender. She was going to make margaritas and I was sent to get the salt from Jewel/Osco. It was the margarita salt you get in a little Mexican hat to rim the glasses with.
I went to pay and was asked for ID. I said 'Why? It's salt"
"Yeah but it's from the alcohol aisle"
At the time my only photo ID was my passport which I didn't think to bring to buy salt. Luckily one of the senior cashiers was nearby and recognized me and said she'd checked me before when I was buying alcohol.
Salt! lol.

Rodin

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Its been reported, that the language he uses is indicative of someone who has the literary of a 4th graders. It was a paper that carried out analysis on the range of vocabulary and sentence structure. They were discussing it on a late night talk show a few months back

Here's one link https://www.newsweek.com/trump-fire-and-fury-smart-genius-obama-774169%3famp=1

Did you ever think he's speaking like that to get through to a certain demographic?

Rodin

FVP3 wrote: »

The problem with the US is its foreign affairs, its export of crazy ideologies, and its internal conflicts. I'd be happy to see it reduced in power.

I am sure though that millions live great lives there. Its still a beautiful country, and vast.

No it isn't. It's about 0-15% higher since 1980 in real terms for the bottom 90%.

So if it's not 0 then it's increased. Like I said.
It hasn't reduced so in absolute terms, the poor are not in fact getting poorer.
The word poverty is bandied about too frequently.
Some idiots will even tell you it exists in Ireland.

_Brian

NSAman wrote: »

Ever worked in Nigeria?

No.
But this thread is about America, you know Nigeria isn’t in America don’t you?

c.p.w.g.w

Rodin wrote: »

Did you ever think he's speaking like that to get through to a certain demographic?

I think you are giving him way too much credit...

I do think his smarter than most believe him to be...He certainly plays to the uneducated segment of the US population

But if its all an act his deserves an Oscar for each year of his presidency.

NSAman

NSAman wrote: »

Ever worked in Nigeria?

I have.

Any questions?

riclad

People in New York , LA, call the rest of the country the flyover states fly over them , no need to go there.Irish people used to go to America to get jobs , I think at least before the present crisis, young people could just look on jobs.ie or some other website to get a job
Ireland is a modern country now, we have all the tech the Americans have cable TV, broadband etc I agree there's a big difference between new York, Vegas Texas and California
I'm not sure what America has to offer the average Irish person now unless you want to work in the tech industry or a startup
Since trump came into power he seems to want to stop all froms of immigration to America,
from any country and its harder to get a visa to go there

Electric Sheep

kenmc wrote: »

Been to America plenty of times, both business and pleasure including j1. If I never set foot in the place again I would not be the slightest bit bothered - certainly won't go there for pleasure again. Last time I was there I found it hard to get fresh fruit even. Felt queasy the entire time from so much crappy fried food.

They do some amazing beers though, loads of microbreweries. That's about the only thing I like about going there for work trips, and even at that I would do anything not to have to go.

Where in the US did you find it hard to get fresh fruit? Genuinely curions where all you could get was fried food.

I suppose it is possible that you just don't know where to shop, otherwise I can't imagine where you were.

topper75

friendlyfun wrote: »

I think it is definitely losing its allure. People don't have the same safety nets in the US like they have in Ireland, Uk, Norway, Sweden etc. a lot of people would be appalled by their mass gun violence, obesity, failing infrastructure, racial tensions, capital punishment and justice system in general (including for profit prisons).Its clearly a dysfunctional country.

Why look for a safety net when you can instead have a leg up? Why not take opportunities?

If there is dysfunction in the U.S., not much of it is policy-driven. You hear various figures on % absent fathers in the African-American community. I'll let you google them and pick out your own. None of them are low. Engagement with education is low. And as for poor whites in regions like Appalachia etc. why are they not using that infamous white privilege? Why after so much federal input are they still on meth and so forth.

The problem isn't how the land is run. It is how the people engage with it.

America is the land of opportunity but if you are looking for handouts then yeah it wouldn't have much 'allure'. Lots of Irish and other Europeans have a state-dependent mindset built up over decades so well might they turn their noses up at America.

If I was young and the opportunity arose I'd go live in the U.S. in a flash. But I like working and earning.

Bobblehats

Like a fancy sequined shirt with a factory sheen that looked good when you bought it. It is losing its lustre

Shelga

Can't really write off a whole country of 330 million people, and as others have said, Ireland hasn't exactly had a totally rosy history!

Still though, I definitely find it less appealing than a few years ago, like most of the rest of the western world. And vast swathes of it are just so incredibly dull- small towns that are full of the same big box stores and fast food places, and that's literally it. Of course there are boring places in Ireland too but you're never that far from either something interesting or the coast, and we have a rich history and culture that I just don't feel in some hick town in Georgia.

I'd rather be an hour from London and Europe than a 500 mile drive to the nearest big city or the sea.

NSAman

topper75 wrote: »

America is the land of opportunity but if you are looking for handouts then yeah it wouldn't have much 'allure'. Lots of Irish and other Europeans have a state-dependent mindset built up over decades so well might they turn their noses up at America.

If I was young and the opportunity arose I'd go live in the U.S. in a flash. But I like working and earning.

Are there many problems with the USA? Absolutely. Does everything run smoothly and without issue? Absolutely NOT!

BUT... name me one country where everything DOES run smoothly.

American IS the land of opportunity. It has been good to me. I would never have had the chance to build what has been built here in Europe. Innovation, thinking differently and not depending on government assistance to "help", has allowed me to develop things that Europe would never have allowed/encouraged.

The people are more open to "new" ideas. People and Business are much more willing to listen to someone new rather than someone from the "old Boys network" that pervades European group think.

Yes there are major problems with American, societally, socially and governmentally.

Yet, risk here can equal reward and no one begrudges you for trying.

TheBoyConor

What are those things you developed and built? Are they some sort of environmentally damaging or health damaging thing? related to junk food and gas guzzlers perhaps? Or maybe building car centric urban sprawl?

I cannot help but think that anything done in the USA that is not encouraged in the EU can only be some sort of regressive, exploitative and harmful enterprise that'll be lapped up by red necks.

The problem with the USA is that it is mostly a culture that is highly individualistic and materialistic, encourages greed the attitude is one of get ahead whatever way you can, make money, destroy whatever and whoever you must to succeed and if you do make it big, then fúck everyone and everything else and look down on them as plebs.

i think it is a socially corrupt degenerate nation for the most part. There was Europe before there ever was a USA. It has no real heritage to speak of, the whole place has a synthetic contrived feel to it.

I think it is ironic that they style themselves the "land of the free" when the whole country was built on the back of genocide and an effective extermination of the natives, followed by a few centuries of slavery. It is hardly surprising that the USA started off as colony of Brits, they were fond of that kind of thing.

TheBoyConor

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Untrue. The company I work for gives 4 months fully paid parental leave to both fathers and mothers.

Choose your employer wisely. It's a big country

Good for you but that is just the goodwill of your company. They could decide to scrap the policy in the morning and leave you without a penny of support or leave.

The point is, in Europe these sort of benefits are regcognised fundamental rights, both at the level of the EU charter and the Constitutions of member states.

Many in america feel it is more important to guarantee a constitutional right to go around carrying guns in public rather than guarantee parents and families some sort of basic rights like maternity leave and support.

A country's character can largely be judged on how it treats its most vulnerable citizens. The does pretty well in those stakes whereas the american system is set up to benefit the powerful and push the vulnerable down.

Mehapoy

The divergence with Europe, Canada, Australia and NZ has been stark in the last 25 years, it's more like South Africa 2.0 or Israel in many people's eyes now.

Motivator

TheBoyConor wrote: »

The problem with the USA is that it is mostly a culture that is highly individualistic and materialistic, encourages greed the attitude is one of get ahead whatever way you can, make money, destroy whatever and whoever you must to succeed and if you do make it big, then fúck everyone and everything else and look down on them as plebs.
.

And this is different to Ireland how? You’re telling me this culture hasn’t been rife in Ireland with the top earners and brass necked “power players” in this country for decades?

If what happened here at the end of the Celtic Tiger happened in the US then the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick and all those other cûnts would have been locked up in a heartbeat. We get the piss taken out of us in Ireland but it wouldn’t happen in any other country.