Public Servants to work 20% from home

Pkiernan

addaword wrote: »

The teachers, principals and BOM blame other people. The teachets use the excuse they do not have a laptop or tablet, the poor creatures. The principals use excuses like "ah sur that teacher is retiring next year anyway". Some teachers blame poor internet or use the excuse some of their pupils have poor internet. Others think one email from a teacher to pupils every Monday morning, with work for the week, is enough contact for the school to gave. The board of management cannot sack a lazy or alcoholic teacher who does as little as possible.

One thing for sure though, from talking to parents around the country, is is clear there are some good teachers but there are many who leave a lot to be desired. Some done nothing.

The teachers should have been put on the Covid payment as soon as the schools closed.

Padre_Pio

Pkiernan wrote: »

The teachers should have been put on the Covid payment as soon as the schools closed.

Who would be marking the averaged leaving cert?

History Queen

Pkiernan wrote: »

The teachers should have been put on the Covid payment as soon as the schools closed.

And let every student in the country have no access to education since March 12th? Great idea. Then at least no one would be complaining and making those of us who went above and beyond to the detriment of our own children feel like crap.

Leave Leaving Cert students with no grades whatsoever rather than pay teachers to do the "calculated grades". Leave students who normally receive the school meals system at home with nothing rather than having teachers and principals work with community organisations to get food parcels sent home. Leave vulnerable students without access to their student support teams.

All fantastic ideas, just so that the privilaged ignorant can sit happy on their high moral ground because the big bad teachers have been brought to task.

Pkiernan

History Queen wrote: »

And let every student in the country have no access to education since March 12th? Great idea. Then at least no one would be complaining and making those of us who went above and beyond to the detriment of our own children feel like crap.

Leave Leaving Cert students with no grades whatsoever rather than pay teachers to do the "calculated grades". Leave students who normally receive the school meals system at home with nothing rather than having teachers and principals work with community organisations to get food parcels sent home. Leave vulnerable students without access to their student support teams.

All fantastic ideas, just so that the privilaged ignorant can sit happy on their high moral ground because the big bad teachers have been brought to task.

Primary school teachers have been doing sweet FA. Sending out an email once a week.

Pkiernan

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Who would be marking the averaged leaving cert?

They could do this for the 350 a week. Poor creatures.

Chiparus

I wonder how the frontline medical staff will be able to do it?

Alf Veedersane

Pkiernan wrote: »

Primary school teachers have been doing sweet FA. Sending out an email once a week.

I have a child in Junior Infants. They have something to do for every day, which is sent to the teacher who responds every day and makes suggestions on things the child might find interesting based on what has been submitted. That includes recordings of the child reading the stories that they have and then sending out other stories that might be a bit more challenging if they think it would be more beneficial.

So my experience is the opposite end of the spectrum to yours or whoever's experience you are talking about.

Unless you have been talking to parents in a significant number of primary schools, then throwing out blanket statements like the above is just incorrect.

Padre_Pio

Pkiernan wrote: »

Primary school teachers have been doing sweet FA. Sending out an email once a week.

Take it up with the principal or BOM.

No point b*tching and moaning here.

History Queen

Pkiernan wrote: »

Primary school teachers have been doing sweet FA. Sending out an email once a week.

Oh sorry I didn't realise you have access to the workings of every primary school in the country? Except a couple of my local ones clearly. I have family members engaging with their schools on lots of different levels.

The most impressive local school sent out a survey to parents before Easter looking for feedback from parents on what was working or not for them and the feedback was many were overwhelmed with workload so the school now sends a weekly 'menu' of work to choose from. Teachers correct work sent back and are available via email for queries during school hours. Every student also gets a personal communication (email or phone call depending on circumstances) from their teacher once a week checking in. Sometimes for a chat, sometimes to give feedback on their work. The school did a virtual sports day for students and a virtual communion and confirmation celebration. They are also doing a virtual graduation. Very far from "sweet FA".

*some* teachers are doing sweet FA as you call it, as are some Gardai, retail workers, civil servants, politicians, nurses, doctors, factory workers etc etc

History Queen

Pkiernan wrote: »

They could do this for the 350 a week. Poor creatures.

Why would they?

addaword

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I read the thread title and skipped to the 10th page, I'm not sure what's up now. Are teachers bad again? Quite a jump from the original thrust of the post.

Not all all, the post is about public servants working from home. It is clear than a sizeable number do not work from home, or only do maybe an hours work a week, despite being paid full time wages.

addaword

Pkiernan wrote: »

As I mentioned I grossly underestimated the amount of sick days public workers get.

Care to explain why public workers take on average twice as many sick days as private sector workers?


Public Service Sick Leave 2018

The Public Service Sick Leave Statistics for 2018 show the rate of sick leave is 4.2% and on average 9.2 working days were taken per Full-Time Equivalent (FTE) in the Public Service. The overall cost of sick leave in the Public Service is estimated at €381.5million 

No public servant can explain that. I think we all know friends and acquaintances who take sickies a lot more than they would if they worked in the private sector.

History Queen

addaword wrote: »

No public servant can explain that. I think we all know friends and acquaintances who take sickies a lot more than they would if they worked in the private sector.

Some of it could be to do with how it is calculated. I got my appendix removed the Friday before the October midterm in 2017. I missed school that Friday and wasn't back until the Wednesday of the week after midterm due to post-op complications. I missed 3 school days but my sick leave was counted as 12 days even though I would not have beenat work over the weekends or during midterm anyway. In the private sector only days you should be at work are counted as sick leave.

Alf Veedersane

addaword wrote: »

No public servant can explain that. I think we all know friends and acquaintances who take sickies a lot more than they would if they worked in the private sector.

If you're working in the private sector, you'll often have timesheets to record your time so your billable time is recorded. Companies started to clamp down on 'utilisation rates' as a means to assess your performance. Anecdotally, people were taking sickies every now and then just as a release valve because it didn't affect their utilisation rate. So I can't comment on sickies in the public sector but plenty of people in the private sector pull sickies in my experience. It happens less when projects are in full swing or close to deadlines but it certainly happens.

addaword

Pkiernan wrote: »

Primary school teachers have been doing sweet FA. Sending out an email once a week.

The government tells the private sector not to work and gives them 350 a week. The government tells the public sector not to work, like the 17,000 Special Needs Assistants, and gives them full pay.

History Queen

addaword wrote: »

The government tells the private sector not to work and gives them 350 a week. The government tells the public sector not to work, like the 17,000 Special Needs Assistants, and gives them full pay.

Joe McHugh was speaking in the Dail yesterday about and thanking the Special Needs assistants working in the Health sector so yet again you are making sweeping statements that are just untrue

addaword

History Queen wrote: »

Joe McHugh was speaking in the Dail yesterday about and thanking the Special Needs assistants working in the Health sector so yet again you are making sweeping statements that are just untrue

Very few SNAs are working in the health sector. Many hospitals were never so quiet as during the lockdown.
What do you think other people like Failte ireland employees are doing during the lockdown? Busy advising tourists where to go? Yeah.

History Queen

addaword wrote: »

Very few SNAs are working in the health sector. Many hospitals were never so quiet as during the lockdown.

Health sector isn't exclusive to hospitals. It wouldn't make sense for them to be in hospitals anyway as I'd imagine they wouldn't be qualified or needed for most roles there? Anyway this article outlines some of the work they are doing.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/snas-to-back-students-with-disabilities-using-phones-or-laptops-1.4234375%3fmode=amp


I don't know anything about Failte Ireland staff and what they are or are not doing. Unlike you I won't comment on subjects I'm uninformed on.

addaword

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The BOM can't blame anyone else. They are the ones who hire and the ones who fire. As was already pointed out to you, but it's just one of the many awkward facts you like to ignore.

And do you know how difficult it is to fire a teacher? Even ones who do the bare minimum, read their own books during class etc?

History Queen

addaword wrote: »

And do you know how difficult it is to fire a teacher? Even ones who do the bare minimum, read their own books during class etc?

Do you know what the procedure is? Going by your history of uninformed commentary I'd doubt it.

Cal4567

addaword wrote: »

Very few SNAs are working in the health sector. Many hospitals were never so quiet as during the lockdown.
What do you think other people like Failte ireland employees are doing during the lockdown? Busy advising tourists where to go? Yeah.

Did any of the 17,000 SNAs get re-deployed? It was announced back in the early stages, but I have heard nothing since. Only hearing this second hand, but friends of friends tell me all the SNAs they know have heard nothing, after filling out forms as well.

Does anyone here know any SNAs who have been re-deployed?

beauf

addaword wrote: »

No public servant can explain that. I think we all know friends and acquaintances who take sickies a lot more than they would if they worked in the private sector.

Anyone can explain that. Lots of them work in schools and hospitals or front line services. They also have an older workforce on average.

Also you'll get more sickies in a private company which pays sick pay than one that doesn't.

Its not rocket science.

Vizzy

addaword wrote: »

The government tells the private sector not to work and gives them 350 a week. The government tells the public sector not to work, like the 17,000 Special Needs Assistants, and gives them full pay.

I see that you have found an extra 1000 SNA's since you made a similar statement on another thread.
Are you now saying that 17000 SNA's have done nothing since Covid began ?

As I pointed out to you previously, the 2 SNA's that I know are fully employed doing voluntary work ( with longer hours) since the schools closed.

Snow Garden

History Queen wrote: »

Do you know what the procedure is? Going by your history of uninformed commentary I'd doubt it.

I worked in the public sector for several years in 2000s and it is very very very difficult to fire someone. Almost impossible I would say. I never saw an instance of it. I am guessing you might be able if someone committed gross misconduct but even then it would probably result in a warning. The performance appraisal system is a tick-the-box exercise. PIPs never happen.

I saw one relatively new manager initiate disciplinary procedures on a guy who did very little work and made life harder for everyone else in the section. The guy knew the ropes and pulled in his union rep immediately - they both completely frazzled the manager. To be fair to the manager he pushed it forward but eventually gave up and was actually seen as a bit of a troublemaker afterwards by HR and the union. The message was clear, don't rock the boat.

Another manager told me that the only way to get rid of someone useless or prone to dossing is to actively promote them to another grade/role outside your section/dept.

TheIrishGrover

I think the idea of hubs is a great idea. There was (is?) that startup in the US, WeWork or something. The whole thing exploded and then imploded when it was realised it was seriously overvalued and I think there was some shennanigans with the CEO.

I didn't read the article but the idea of multiple local hubs is a very smart one: Each town having a small office (Maybe space for 6-8 people) with a teleconferencing room (Again, space for maybe 4 people) and a little kitchenette.

You have a booking system for the desks or however you want to do it. Everyone uses their own work laptop (Nobody would want to share keyboard/mouse and/or phone) but there are docking stations with extra monitors and fast and stable broadband. An office that size could help 4 people a week who would love to not have to commute an hour into main office but who do not have the facilities to work from home. You don't need them to be dedicated to a particular department (Although privacy would need to be considered). You could have 1 from HSE, 1 from Transport, 2 Tax office etc. And maybe some regional boss just needs to book the teleconferencing room for a morning for their monthly round-table.

Main offices would eventually drop in size (Although given union pressure (You MUST have the space for ANYONE who WANTS to work in the office to do it. Even if they haven't done it for years and years) and general inefficiencies (Not renegotiating leases etc. ) would mean that it would be a generation before this probably happened).

Decentralisation by demand/want as opposed to enforced.

Think of all those towns who have empty shops or small offices who could use that office rental income. Offices that were too small for a full company but perfect for this regional hot desk hub.

My sister works for public sector in Waterford. At least once a fortnight she would have to get train up to Dublin for a meeting. I remember saying: "Have ye not heard of Skype or Webex or Teams?" "Ah no, we need to do these face to face". Now it's a case of "B0llox to that. Never taking that trip again"

While certain industries are being hit hard now, they will bounce back hopefully. But I think that, in the long run, office real estate will see the most impact. Don't get me wrong: They are not going to the wall but whereas before, a single company may have rented out a building, now you will have nore and more companies (even large ones) simply renting single floors. I know that is already the case in many places but I think it will happen more.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

MegamanBoo wrote: »

Going by this article https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/parties-agree-public-servants-could-work-from-home-one-day-a-week-1002573.html it would seem the government formation talks have agreed that all public servants should do 20% from home.

This is primarily to reduce c02 emissions and help rural Ireland where workers will be able to work from local innovation hubs.

Whatya all think?

Personally I think we should all be working from home, long term, where possible. It's such a criminal waste of c02. I think the idea of setting up rural hubs is brilliant and can't believe FG (weren't they a rural party?) went against it. In my experience if people want to be unproductive in the public service, or any large organisation, they'll get away with it one way or the other.

I think it's the best Idea any Irish Government has had since the SSIA savings scheme. I don't even work for the public service.

givyjoe

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Oh no the the trade unions, what a despicable bunch of people they are for representing their members views.
Wait whats that, the trade unions haven't said anything on this topic yet but your prescience knows that their only intention is to drive up the costs of this.

How might they drive up costs oh wise cartman?

Really, you don't see them asking for allowances for chairs, equipment etc?

Padre_Pio

givyjoe wrote: »

Really, you don't see them asking for allowances for chairs, equipment etc?

If your employer requires you to work from home they must provide the right equipment, unless your contract says otherwise.

givyjoe

Padre_Pio wrote: »

If your employer requires you to work from home they must provide the right equipment, unless your contract says otherwise.

Almost as if you didn't read my post carefully. Do you actually believe that the majority of employers are providing chairs, food subsidies etc to their staff? Most will provide the minimum for a number of reasons. I've a laptop, thats it. Some folks managed to get an extra screen, most didn't. Do you believe that PS unions wouldn't milk WFH for all they can for their members?

Quin_Dub

givyjoe wrote: »

Almost as if you didn't read my post carefully. Do you actually believe that the majority of employers are providing chairs, food subsidies etc to their staff? Most will provide the minimum for a number of reasons. I've a laptop, thats it. Some folks managed to get an extra screen, most didn't. Do you believe that PS unions wouldn't milk WFH for all they can for their members?

The expenses are already laid out by Revenue - You can either claim directly or your employer can give you a tax free monthly payment - Works out at about €35 a month.

If it's going to be long term permanent , they are obligated to ensure that you are provided with a "suitable environment" - so either provide or provide funding for a table/chair etc.

I'm sure lots of companies right now will be getting away with that on the basis of it being a temporary "extraordinary circumstance" , but any that want to formalise it after the restrictions are gone will have to comply with the rules that are already in place.