Public Servants to work 20% from home

thomasdylan

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Is their sick leave counted if it's on a day they're not due to work?

Is their sick leave counted if they're not paid for it?

I don't know. That information isn't recorded in the PS absence reports.

Staff in the PS work under the same general absence policy. Why do you think there are such large variations between how much sick leave is taken in different areas? Why do admin staff take the most sick leave in the HSE?

Snow Garden

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Teachers aren't really public servants though - the government is not their employer.

I can tell you for a fact that both of those sentences are wrong because I have seen otherwise with my own two eyes. Whereas you are taking your own very limited experience that something did not happen to you or where you were and extrapolating that to 350,000 workers across the entire country.

HR are at fault there for not backing the manager. But he would have been wiser to sound them out beforehand. And you're bloody naive if you think the exact same doesn't happen in the private sector.

Now this is complete crap. Managers do not have authority to promote anyone.

I never mentioned teachers. I have no idea if a teacher can be fired. I said it is almost impossible to get someone fired in the public sector no matter how poor people are at their job. Especially if they are in the union. I never heard of anyone in a PIP and I worked in a large department.

I was 7 years in the public sector and never once had a formal appraisal meeting. I got all my increments on time.

Yes managers do not have the authority to promote anyone but they can certainly have a strong influence on it. You must have heard of people being promoted just to 'move them on'!? I know of one specific example in the HSE, she was causing havoc in A&E.

I know we public servants are not allowed to be whistleblowers but I will give you 2 true stories now that I am out (but aiming to get back in).

1. A manager took one guy to task over his dossing and intimidation. HR got involved, union reps called in, lots of closed door meetings...the mediation 'resolution' was all hush hush the guy in question was allowed (don't ask me how) to come to work every day and given about 30 mins of menial work. 1 hour if he went really slow. Nobody depended on his work. He openly read the paper for the other 6 hours. The manager never spoke to him after. He is still there today but close to retirement.

2. Another guy was running a thriving business from his desk (I wont say what business but it was construction product related - during the boom, before 2008). He even gave his work landline as a business contact number. He did manage to get his own work done but he was always on the phone and slipping out to the stairwell to discuss whatever. Everybody knew but nobody reported it. The funny thing was that he would often stay late and racked up huge TIL hours which meant he could take loads of leave whenever he needed it. Often 50+ days or more annually (including his 32).

Stovepipe

I have encountered practically identical cases to both mentioned above. In the first, the guy was "medicalled" out, in his early 50s, well before his pension. In the second case, the guy was "invited" to resign and the Union actually went along with it. In another case, a chronic alcoholic was given a "medical" early half pension. Getting rid of alcos has been a perennial problem with Irish companies for years.

Stovepipe

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Wow, seven whole days every two years.



Most people are entitled to Christmas off. My office shuts down for two whole days. All of the private sector offices in the area shut down for two weeks, you can't get a coffee or a sandwich because there's no point in these places opening when civil servants are the only people at work.



What bonus? You are talking out of your rear end.

first point: if all you had was 20 days annual per year, a free extra 5 days is like free money. As for Christmas leave, it had to be booked, because we worked on shifts through holiday periods, where I worked and several of the same people would book their Xmas leave when they came in at the start of each new year. So, management had to introduce a 90 day forward booking limit. As for bonuses, the then semi-state organisation I worked for had bonuses for management above a certain level.

major interest

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Most people are entitled to Christmas off. My office shuts down for two whole days. All of the private sector offices in the area shut down for two weeks, you can't get a coffee or a sandwich because there's no point in these places opening when civil servants are the only people at work.

“All private sector offices in the area shut down for two weeks”.

Can I ask what industries these private companies are involved in that they shut down for two weeks? Did you mean 2 days?

In most I know of, companies will give 2 or max 3 days to employees (Christmas day + Stephens day and maybe one other). Anything additional comes out of employee annual leave and is up to the individual employee.

noodler

addaword wrote: »

Obviously doctors and pharmacists have a better work ethic than some others.

They aren't PS workers either.

Private operations.

addaword

noodler wrote: »

They aren't PS workers either.

Private operations.

The statistics were referring to how doctors and pharmacists take far fewer sickies than desk bound clerical officers in the public service, even though you would think doctors would be exposed to more germs etc.

Eric Cartman

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Oh no the the trade unions, what a despicable bunch of people they are for representing their members views.
Wait whats that, the trade unions haven't said anything on this topic yet but your prescience knows that their only intention is to drive up the costs of this.

How might they drive up costs oh wise cartman?

Demanding a work from home stipend, an allowance to pay for their home broadband , having to pay for a chair and desk for which the allowance would be an insane amount, wanting more money for every minor change , a home coffee allowance etc...

The unions will use it to line their pockets and their members pockets and its the taxpayers that lose

thomasdylan

noodler wrote: »

They aren't PS workers either.

Private operations.

Those stats were for HSE doctors and pharmacists.

Snow Garden

Snow Garden wrote: »

I never mentioned teachers. I have no idea if a teacher can be fired. I said it is almost impossible to get someone fired in the public sector no matter how poor people are at their job. Especially if they are in the union. I never heard of anyone in a PIP and I worked in a large department.

I was 7 years in the public sector and never once had a formal appraisal meeting. I got all my increments on time.

Yes managers do not have the authority to promote anyone but they can certainly have a strong influence on it. You must have heard of people being promoted just to 'move them on'!? I know of one specific example in the HSE, she was causing havoc in A&E.

I know we public servants are not allowed to be whistleblowers but I will give you 2 true stories now that I am out (but aiming to get back in).

1. A manager took one guy to task over his dossing and intimidation. HR got involved, union reps called in, lots of closed door meetings...the mediation 'resolution' was all hush hush the guy in question was allowed (don't ask me how) to come to work every day and given about 30 mins of menial work. 1 hour if he went really slow. Nobody depended on his work. He openly read the paper for the other 6 hours. The manager never spoke to him after. He is still there today but close to retirement.

2. Another guy was running a thriving business from his desk (I wont say what business but it was construction product related - during the boom, before 2008). He even gave his work landline as a business contact number. He did manage to get his own work done but he was always on the phone and slipping out to the stairwell to discuss whatever. Everybody knew but nobody reported it. The funny thing was that he would often stay late and racked up huge TIL hours which meant he could take loads of leave whenever he needed it. Often 50+ days or more annually (including his 32).

So much wrong with this.

You were in the public sector in the noughties. It's 2020 now. Things change.

The guys meetings behind closed doors, of course they were. When you are having meetings with your boss and hrm are they done in the open office with everyone watching? I doubt it.

In relation to the business, is there anything preventing someone from having a second income? You yourself said he got his work done so what's the issue? Plenty of electricians, etc doing nixers outside of their working hours.

There's also an entire law and procedure about whistle blowing.

The largest unions in the country represent private sector staff. If they are so powerful at stopping dismissals, why not there? Labor law does not separate public from private.

Here's a link: https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/almost-twice-as-many-garda-dismissals-last-year-compared-to-previous-five-years-981609.html

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Demanding a work from home stipend, an allowance to pay for their home broadband , having to pay for a chair and desk for which the allowance would be an insane amount, wanting more money for every minor change , a home coffee allowance etc...

The unions will use it to line their pockets and their members pockets and its the taxpayers that lose

I don't know a single private sector employee who when moved to working from home was not provided with the materials to perform the task. Some more than others. One got a laptop and that was it. She works from the kitchen. Another got a desk, chair, computer, stationary delivered. He uses the box room upstairs.

Again, the largest unions are for private staff. The majority of work to rules and union strikes in our history have been private sector.

Alf Veedersane

I don't know anyone in either private or public sector that got a desk or chair. Laptops, screen, keyboard, mouse....that's about the extent of it.

strandroad

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't know anyone in either private or public sector that got a desk or chair. Laptops, screen, keyboard, mouse....that's about the extent of it.

I know of several multinational companies who gave employees a few hundred quid each to spend on home office setup (that's outside of devices which are all provided). Their profile makes me think that they'll be the ones not insisting on return to the office.

Alf Veedersane

strandroad wrote: »

I know of several multinational companies who gave employees a few hundred quid each to spend on home office setup (that's outside of devices which are all provided). Their profile makes me think that they'll be the ones not insisting on return to the office.

I don't doubt it is happening. Being provided a full WFH is not as widespread as was implied, that's all.

Alf Veedersane

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't doubt it is happening. Being provided a full WFH is not as widespread as was implied, that's all.

The company I work for gave each employee that normally works in the office 500 euro to set up a home office station and are paying for their broadband. We all use laptops even in the office so the money was for the employee to get a desk, chair etc.

I work from home full time anyway so already had my setup and they pay for my broadband already. They have already told us that regardless of government advice we are going to be working from home until January 2021.

I've friends in a few other MNs that got similar assistance setting up home offices and are also going to be working from home until January 2021.

The fact that the public service can now work from home at least 20% where their role allows, does make it a bit more attractive. However the fact that I would have to be working with them twelve years to reach the top of the pay scale and still be on less money and benefits for the same job is still putting me off applying.

Alf Veedersane

DubInMeath wrote: »

The company I work for gave each employee that normally works in the office 500 euro to set up a home office station and are paying for their broadband. We all use laptops even in the office so the money was for the employee to get a desk, chair etc.

I work from home full time anyway so already had my setup and they pay for my broadband already. They have already told us that regardless of government advice we are going to be working from home until January 2021.

I've friends in a few other MNs that got similar assistance setting up home offices and are also going to be working from home until January 2021.

The fact that the public service can now work from home at least 20% where their role allows, does make it a bit more attractive. However the fact that I would have to be working with them twelve years to reach the top of the pay scale and still be on less money and benefits for the same job is still putting me off applying.

Like I said, I don't doubt it's happening. I just know it isn't for my previous employers and the employers of most I know (who I asked) though they don't work in MNs.

Alf Veedersane

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Like I said, I don't doubt it's happening. I just know it isn't for my previous employers and the employers of most I know (who I asked) though they don't work in MNs.

Ah alot of Irish companies don't have the best managers and for the majority treat their staff like crap so wouldn't be surprised.
The last one I worked for most of the management positions were taken up by relatives and friends of the owner/ceo, with the resulting high staff turn over, except for the poor gits whose visas were tied to them.

Snow Garden

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

So much wrong with this.

You were in the public sector in the noughties. It's 2020 now. Things change.

The guys meetings behind closed doors, of course they were. When you are having meetings with your boss and hrm are they done in the open office with everyone watching? I doubt it.

In relation to the business, is there anything preventing someone from having a second income? You yourself said he got his work done so what's the issue? Plenty of electricians, etc doing nixers outside of their working hours.

I am confused. You think the resolution for the first case was correct - only given 30 mins work a day for the past 15 years and allowed to read the paper or disappear (he did that a lot)? That level of dossing can have an impact on the rest of the team.

On the 2nd case, the guy only worked about 3 hours a day and then ran his business for the rest of the working day. He claimed TIL when he worked late with his business. If his manager knew that he had 3-4 hours capacity, I am sure he would have increased his workload but he thought he was flat out. I admired his nerve.

El Weirdo

addaword wrote: »

Time the public sector learned a bit of give and take too.

Maybe it's the private sector that needs to learn a bit of give and take? Why the race to the bottom when it comes to workers' conditions?

Padre_Pio

El Weirdo wrote: »

Maybe it's the private sector that needs to learn a bit of give and take? Why the race to the bottom when it comes to workers' conditions?

People have used that phrase for decades. Conditions in most companies are very good compared to EU counterparts and we have very well paid workforce.

There is no race to the bottom in Ireland. You may pick niche industries, or part time temp work, but these will be extreme examples.

fly_agaric

Padre_Pio wrote: »

People have used that phrase for decades. Conditions in most companies are very good compared to EU counterparts and we have very well paid workforce.

There is no race to the bottom in Ireland. You may pick niche industries, or part time temp work, but these will be extreme examples.

Off top of my head...I though Ireland has extremely high numbers of people at risk of poverty before social transfers (i.e. before the dole + the other social safety nets come into play) compared to other western european countries?

We seem to be the worst in this Eurostat table (year 2018, 31 %)...
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tesov252&plugin=1

Of course devil is in the detail of how they are working this out but it suggests an awful lot of people on low wages/crappy part time contracts/zero hours & the like with govt. picking up the welfare tab which is what you'd expect of a "race to the bottom" which Irish companies, smes and the like have gotten a medal in!

Padre_Pio

fly_agaric wrote: »

Off top of my head...I though Ireland has extremely high numbers of people at risk of poverty before social transfers (i.e. before the dole + the other social safety nets come into play) compared to other western european countries?

We seem to be the worst in this Eurostat table...
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tesov252&plugin=1

That suggests an awful lot of people on low wages/crappy part time contracts/zero hours & the like with govt. picking up the welfare tab which is what you'd expect of a "race to the bottom" which Irish companies, smes and the like have gotten a medal in!

Though you could argue the opposite. With social transfers and Ireland's generous welfare system, there's not as much incentive to work the hours you can get.
Was is this thread or another where shop owners can't get their part-time staff back to work, they're making more on PUP.

How are they measuring poverty? Is is relative to the country or relative to overall EU? Poor in Ireland may not be the same as poor in Albania.

marieholmfan

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Though you could argue the opposite. With social transfers and Ireland's generous welfare system, there's not as much incentive to work the hours you can get.
Was is this thread or another where shop owners can't get their part-time staff back to work, they're making more on PUP.

How are they measuring poverty? Is is relative to the country or relative to overall EU? Poor in Ireland may not be the same as poor in Albania.

Perhaps the gombeen class should pay higher wages.

addaword

marieholmfan wrote: »

Perhaps the gombeen class should pay higher wages.

Wages are high in Ireland. Our president is on 252k , for doing nothing all year. The Prime Minister of Spain is on 72k a year.

fly_agaric

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Though you could argue the opposite. With social transfers and Ireland's generous welfare system, there's not as much incentive to work the hours you can get.
Was is this thread or another where shop owners can't get their part-time staff back to work, they're making more on PUP.

How are they measuring poverty? Is is relative to the country or relative to overall EU? Poor in Ireland may not be the same as poor in Albania.

Well it's chicken and egg isn't it? If the generous welfare system was slashed those statistics I posted up suggest we would have horrible third world-ish or US style misery here unless employers (somehow) took up the slack and paid more/gave people more hours etc.

"PUP" situation is a bit of a special case, once in a generation event (where govt. was rushing to get cash into people's hands, similar to wage subsidy scheme to help employers pay staff wages in an emergency...many of whom could be claiming it and yet well able to pay staff wages from own resources, we don't know yet).

It is not really reflective of the rest of the social welfare system IMO.

It was a late edit but I added "Of course devil is in the detail of how they are working this out"
I only did a quick search for these statistics without going into the details, but logic suggests the poverty level must be based off local costs and wages etc and set uniquely for each country. It would be nonsensical otherwise, price of a weekly shop or a gas bill in Albania doesn't mean much to me here.

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

Wages are high in Ireland. Our president is on 252k , for doing nothing all year. The Prime Minister of Spain is on 72k a year.

What's the average salaries for Ireland vs Spain in your job or profession?

BTW, Michael D shows more class and leadership on one lap of the Áras with the dogs than the average poster does in a year of sniping here.

Padre_Pio

marieholmfan wrote: »

Perhaps the gombeen class should pay higher wages.

Why would someone on min wage leave a 350 euro welfare check for doing SFA, to work 39 hours a week for less money?

Where I am, the students havent gone home for Summer, they're still here, renting and having house parties. Sure anyone working a day a week in a shop has been getting 350 euro a week for the past 2 months

addaword

addaword wrote: »

Wages are high in Ireland. Our president is on 252k , for doing nothing all year. The Prime Minister of Spain is on 72k a year.

Wow, I have to admire the block headed manner at least

Multiple threads, a thread ban, hundreds of posts over weeks and building a fine reputation for double standards and refusing to acknowledge facts or answer direct questions. Yet here you are still going back to the old reliable despite the obvious flaws in such an argument bring obvious to anyone with a genuine understanding of economics.

Surely to god we can now all see that this lad is nothing but a troll?

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What's the average salaries for Ireland vs Spain in your job or profession?

Again you miss the point. I was illustrating how salaries are considerably higher in Ireland than in Spain.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

BTW, Michael D shows more class and leadership on one lap of the Áras with the dogs....

He is not paid to do a lap of the Aras every week with his dogs, and nobody would care less if he done a lap of his investment property in Galway where he evicted the students who were paying him 2200 a month in rent.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-told-to-leave-so-president-higgins-can-sell-house-w9vq8gss0

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Why would someone on min wage leave a 350 euro welfare check for doing SFA, to work 39 hours a week for less money?

Where I am, the students havent gone home for Summer, they're still here, renting and having house parties. Sure anyone working a day a week in a shop has been getting 350 euro a week for the past 2 months

Well said.

marieholmfan

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Why would someone on min wage leave a 350 euro welfare check for doing SFA, to work 39 hours a week for less money?

Where I am, the students havent gone home for Summer, they're still here, renting and having house parties. Sure anyone working a day a week in a shop has been getting 350 euro a week for the past 2 months

Pay 700 a week then.