A 30 KPH limit for Dublin

Shefwedfan

double jobbing wrote: »

So how should one drive from Coolock to Stillorgan off peak?

M50 route burns more petrol so there's the Greens environmental argument out the window.

A cross city tunnel would be nice but with COVID19 we might get one by the year 2367.

Cycle, bus, train, walk
Drive....how many other forms of transportation would you like? Fly?

Shefwedfan

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

tbh it is sort of a flawed plan, a blanket 30pkh limit punishes bus users as well. the limit should only apply to to private vehicles and PT should be exempt and be 50 or 60 where it currently is (or where there are dedicated bus lanes at the very least)

How is it flawed? Slower traffic means in the event of a accident the chances of deaths are reduced significantly

What is flawed about that?

Everyone said after COVID the world would change, first slight bit of change and everyone loses their s**t....oh we can’t do it, we can’t do it

double jobbing

Chips Lovell wrote: »

There's no need to sneer at him just because he identifies as a cyclist.

Cyclists are road users. As such they should, within the canal limits at least, be subject to a test/ licence, tax and insurance. This licence would be subject to points and like any licence could be revoked if the user behaves in a dangerous or ignorant manner, and their insurance premium would rise with points accumulated.

I wouldn't expect these regulations of local residents of the area as they're generally well behaved. Just for Fintan cycling in from Foxrock in the Lycra and Fernando cycling to Google while scrolling through Spotify to blast something on his Beats knock offs headphones.

Put this into law and you'd have three cyclists in Dublin city centre within 6 months.

Dufflecoat Fanny

Shefwedfan wrote: »

First off what do you need to build?

Second how are you stopped getting in?

Are you for real? I've heard the saying dumb animals never look up and until now I never gave it much thought.

Did ya ever notice a tower crane? A man with a visi vest? Last count before december i think there was 100ish tower cranes over the dublin city area. each of those cranes represents alot of workers. Theres thousands more sites without cranes you can't see building away.

Most of us live in the country because rent is too expensive in the city. It's that simple

Shefwedfan

Dufflecoat Fanny wrote: »

Are you for real? I've heard the saying dumb animals never look up and until now I never gave it much thought.

Did ya ever notice a tower crane? A man with a visi vest? Last count before december i think there was 100ish tower cranes over the dublin city area. each of those cranes represents alot of workers. Theres thousands more sites without cranes you can't see building away.

Most of us live in the country because rent is too expensive in the city. It's that simple

A crane is driven by a person? A person who drives a crane is not able to get a bus/car/cycle?

Your next point, are you saying because you live outside Dublin you can’t get a train or bus? I live outside Dublin and I get a train.

Shefwedfan

double jobbing wrote: »

Cyclists are road users. As such they should, within the canal limits at least, be subject to a test/ licence, tax and insurance. This licence would be subject to points and like any licence could be revoked if the user behaves in a dangerous or ignorant manner, and their insurance premium would rise with points accumulated.

I wouldn't expect these regulations of local residents of the area as they're generally well behaved. Just for Fintan cycling in from Foxrock in the Lycra and Fernando cycling to Google while scrolling through Spotify to blast something on his Beats knock offs headphones.

Put this into law and you'd have three cyclists in Dublin city centre within 6 months.

What are you talking about?

Podge_irl

Dufflecoat Fanny wrote: »

I'm a construction worker that visits sites in the city centre and I live in westmeath. I'm already spending 3 hours a day minimum driving to a site and last thursday had to pay 35 quid for parking near the north wall. There are thousands like me commuting like this and have no other choice. If it gets any more punative I'm not taking anymore work in the the city.

And its the extra 3 minutes maximum that these measures entail that will stop you ever working in the city again?

Dufflecoat Fanny

Podge_irl wrote: »

And its the extra 3 minutes maximum that these measures entail that will stop you ever working in the city again?

the pay drastically reduces outside dublin. lads seriously im not a fool.

Shefwedfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

And its the extra 3 minutes maximum that these measures entail that will stop you ever working in the city again?

Which in reality if they got out of a car and onto a train they would save significant time getting to/from work. But they would never think of doing that unless made to

Shefwedfan

Dufflecoat Fanny wrote: »

the pay drastically reduces outside dublin. lads seriously im not a fool.

Really? Where are you travelling from/to? I bet you have loads of options on public transport but prefer to sit in a car

I know I shouldn’t ask this question because I now expect you to come up with a trip which has you starting in Monaghan and looping past Belfast down to cork and back up to arrive in Blanchardstown :-)

Dufflecoat Fanny

Shefwedfan wrote: »

A crane is driven by a person? A person who drives a crane is not able to get a bus/car/cycle?

Your next point, are you saying because you live outside Dublin you can’t get a train or bus? I live outside Dublin and I get a train.

I start work at 6.30 and finish around 5 or 7 depending on whats needed. Lets say i live in kilbeggen and i need to get to work for 6.30 in ballsbridge. you make the fcukin calc there smart arse and see what's best for us ya wakner.

Cookie_Monster

double jobbing wrote: »

Cyclists are road users. As such they should, within the canal limits at least, be subject to a test/ licence, tax and insurance. This licence would be subject to points and like any licence could be revoked if the user behaves in a dangerous or ignorant manner, and their insurance premium would rise with points accumulated.

I wouldn't expect these regulations of local residents of the area as they're generally well behaved. Just for Fintan cycling in from Foxrock in the Lycra and Fernando cycling to Google while scrolling through Spotify to blast something on his Beats knock offs headphones.

Put this into law and you'd have three cyclists in Dublin city centre within 6 months.

pedestrians are road users too, should they require all of this nonsense as well??

shedwedfan wrote:

How is it flawed? Slower traffic means in the event of a accident the chances of deaths are reduced significantly

because it make public transport more unattractive than it is now. You still need to be able to move large quantities of people in an efficient manner. dropping speed limits for buses is counter to this. And if you get hit by a bus, 30 or 50 is not going to make a difference, it will for a car.

Chips Lovell

double jobbing wrote: »

Cyclists are road users. As such they should, within the canal limits at least, be subject to a test/ licence, tax and insurance. This licence would be subject to points and like any licence could be revoked if the user behaves in a dangerous or ignorant manner, and their insurance premium would rise with points accumulated.

I wouldn't expect these regulations of local residents of the area as they're generally well behaved. Just for Fintan cycling in from Foxrock in the Lycra and Fernando cycling to Google while scrolling through Spotify to blast something on his Beats knock offs headphones.

Put this into law and you'd have three cyclists in Dublin city centre within 6 months.

The goal here is to create a safe space for cyclists. Not tax or fine them off the road.

kenmm

double jobbing wrote: »

Cyclists are road users. As such they should, within the canal limits at least, be subject to a test/ licence, tax and insurance. This licence would be subject to points and like any licence could be revoked if the user behaves in a dangerous or ignorant manner, and their insurance premium would rise with points accumulated.

I wouldn't expect these regulations of local residents of the area as they're generally well behaved. Just for Fintan cycling in from Foxrock in the Lycra and Fernando cycling to Google while scrolling through Spotify to blast something on his Beats knock offs headphones.

Put this into law and you'd have three cyclists in Dublin city centre within 6 months.

If you are serious then why don't we just enforce the laws we already have? And why just enforcement within the canal limits, should be across the board.

But you are not serious. You just think you are funny with this googling cycling maniac Fintan persona. Try harder at the comedy, or stop the bs name calling if you want a serious conversation.

kenmm

Dufflecoat Fanny wrote: »

I start work at 6.30 and finish around 5 or 7 depending on whats needed. Lets say i live in kilbeggen and i need to get to work for 6.30 in ballsbridge. you make the fcukin calc there smart arse and see what's best for us ya wakner.

Looks like double jobbing got the results they were looking for.

Seriously tho- No **** some people currently have no alternative to drive. That's why these blanket schemes are stupid. They don't really look at the real needs of the people that operate in the cities.

Shefwedfan

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

pedestrians are road users too, should they require all of this nonsense as well??


because it make public transport more unattractive than it is now. You still need to be able to move large quantities of people in an efficient manner. dropping speed limits for buses is counter to this. And if you get hit by a bus, 30 or 50 is not going to make a difference, it will for a car.

The problem with public transport is not the speed, it’s that buses are constantly blocked by idiots in cars. Block the cars, take the taxi out of bus lane and your sorted. A bus travelling at a contact speed of 30km/h between stops will be a lot quicker than one doing burst of 50km/h but constantly slowing down to let idiots swerve in and out....would be more fuel efficient as well

Shefwedfan

kenmm wrote: »

Looks like double jobbing got the results they were looking for.

Seriously tho- No **** some people currently have no alternative to drive. That's why these blanket schemes are stupid. They don't really look at the real needs of the people that operate in the cities.

Very very very few have no alternative. Loads of people are just too lazy to find an alternative.

Even the Killbeggan route they came up with which is not real, stop in Maynooth and get train right into ballsbridge. Quicker than any car and a lot less stressful

kenmm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Very very very few have no alternative. Loads of people are just too lazy to find an alternative.

Even the Killbeggan route they came up with which is not real, stop in Maynooth and get train right into ballsbridge. Quicker than any car and a lot less stressful

My point is some people just wouldn't have an alternative. Especially building trade because of the hours, 8-12 hours if tough enough work. But let's not go nit picking here and doing the usual thing of pulling example and contrived counter example that are exceptions, because the point in a mass scheme like this is to change a groups behaviour. There will always be some that loose out more that others.

double jobbing just wanted to go on the wind up, and has been successful so far.

Shefwedfan

kenmm wrote: »

My point is some people just wouldn't have an alternative. Especially building trade because of the hours, 8-12 hours if tough enough work. But let's not go nit picking here and doing the usual thing of pulling example and contrived counter example that are exceptions, because the point in a mass scheme like this is to change a groups behaviour. There will always be some that loose out more that others.

double jobbing just wanted to go on the wind up, and has been successful so far.

Some will lose out but they are in minority, a proper public transport system will help move people out of Dublin. A proper train from town like Navan into Dublin would allow construction workers to move out of Dublin and get a train direct into jobs in Dublin City

Most construction sites now work in middle of night, the bigger ones anyway in regards to concrete etc so they don’t have trucks driving into the city during the day. So the people onsite are carpenters etc who can leave tools onsite and commute in/out.

People come up with all sorts of excuses but in reality it’s down to pure laziness. It’s easy to walk out front door, sit in a car and then complain about the traffic. In reality a proper train system would improve quality of life and also reduce stress for commuters. Even builders

kenmm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Some will lose out but they are in minority, a proper public transport system will help move people out of Dublin. A proper train from town like Navan into Dublin would allow construction workers to move out of Dublin and get a train direct into jobs in Dublin City

Most construction sites now work in middle of night, the bigger ones anyway in regards to concrete etc so they don’t have trucks driving into the city during the day. So the people onsite are carpenters etc who can leave tools onsite and commute in/out.

People come up with all sorts of excuses but in reality it’s down to pure laziness. It’s easy to walk out front door, sit in a car and then complain about the traffic. In reality a proper train system would improve quality of life and also reduce stress for commuters. Even builders

So that's my point. Right now we don't have a decent enough public transport system, and cycling is impractical for a lot if people (yes some of us could easily do a 20km commute, but for the majority this isn't possible). So of course you will find people right now that can't get a train to at 6am that doesn't involve either long connection times. Or it doesn't work because it's more expensive to use public transport than drive (because they already have a car) or because they need to get kids from school on the way home or god knows what else. Not necessarily lazy, but very much more impractical.

I'd much rather see a plan that would seek to improve public transport to the point where it's easy, cheap and frequent enough to use that it is the default choice for the majority of people. But this takes a lot if planning and investment. Much easier to go for the cheaper headline grabbing option of some blanket scheme of 30km/h all round. Which on its own isn't enough to counter the problems of Dublin traffic.

Shefwedfan

kenmm wrote: »

So that's my point. Right now we don't have a decent enough public transport system, and cycling is impractical for a lot if people (yes some of us could easily do a 20km commute, but for the majority this isn't possible). So of course you will find people right now that can't get a train to at 6am that doesn't involve either long connection times. Or it doesn't work because it's more expensive to use public transport than drive (because they already have a car) or because they need to get kids from school on the way home or god knows what else. Not necessarily lazy, but very much more impractical.

I'd much rather see a plan that would seek to improve public transport to the point where it's easy, cheap and frequent enough to use that it is the default choice for the majority of people. But this takes a lot if planning and investment. Much easier to go for the cheaper headline grabbing option of some blanket scheme of 30km/h all round. Which on its own isn't enough to counter the problems of Dublin traffic.

Unless you take cars off the road public transport won’t work, unfortunately it’s a chicken and egg situation.

You will be here in 30 years having the same discussion, better just to implement it and suck it and see. Most “problems” are easily resolved and the results would be incredible for Ireland and Dublin

kenmm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Unless you take cars off the road public transport won’t work, unfortunately it’s a chicken and egg situation.

You will be here in 30 years having the same discussion, better just to implement it and suck it and see. Most “problems” are easily resolved and the results would be incredible for Ireland and Dublin

What are you on about? It's not chicken and egg. You can discourage car use AND improve alternatives at the same time.

I'm not against the 30km/h limit (it will be largely ignored anyway). I'm against it on its own. Discouraging city centre car use is a start, but a lot more needs to be done to Improve moving around this city.

Especially when all this construction work add **** knows how many more offices and flats.

machiavellianme

Podge_irl wrote: »

And its the extra 3 minutes maximum that these measures entail that will stop you ever working in the city again?

Your hypothesis is incorrect.
Depending on the distance travelled, the time taken increases.
For example, reducing from 50kph to 30kph to travel 3.75km would take you an extra 3 minutes as suggested, but to travel 5km would take you an extra 4 minutes which breaches your 3 minutes maximum (assuming everything else is equal, such as no extra traffic lights etc).

Shefwedfan

kenmm wrote: »

What are you on about? It's not chicken and egg. You can discourage car use AND improve alternatives at the same time.

I'm not against the 30km/h limit (it will be largely ignored anyway). I'm against it on its own. Discouraging city centre car use is a start, but a lot more needs to be done to Improve moving around this city.

Especially when all this construction work add **** knows how many more offices and flats.

Sitting for 2 hours per trip and 4 hours daily you think would discourage people but no they continue day in day out


Shuttimg down lanes to decrease bus journey time and increase car jourmey times


A port tunnel which costs 10 euro but now you have traffic jams in it.


How are you going to discourage?

Tokyo

Mod: @Dufflecoat Fanny - Don't post in the thread again.

magicbastarder

machiavellianme wrote: »

For example, reducing from 50kph to 30kph to travel 3.75km would take you an extra 3 minutes as suggested, but to travel 5km would take you an extra 4 minutes which breaches your 3 minutes maximum (assuming everything else is equal, such as no extra traffic lights etc).

let's take the example of someone coming in from kilbeggan; what route do they take and what distance would they have to travel?
is there actually an extra 5km of roads dropping from 50 to 30 on that trip?
there was already a statement made i think that the round trip was already three hours, so the extra four minutes each way would add a theoretical max of 8 minutes to that three hours.

but; this isn't just about slowing down cars, it's a general move to try to make other forms (primarily cycling, walking, PT) more amenable and if that works, there would be fewer cars on the road, opening up traffic.

again, it just seems to me that complaining about these speed restrictions in dublin city is like complaining that the restaurant you go to has reduced their portion size from one and a half times what you can physically eat, to one which is 'only' the maximum of what you can physically eat.

magicbastarder

looking at the map, if i am reading it correctly, it seems most of the arterial routes approaching from the north are still 50 or above (navan road to cabra road junction, N2 to past glasnevin cemetery, ballymun road to griffith avenue, N1 to the canal, howth road to fairview, and the malahide road to coolock seems to be the one most restricted).
the chapelizod bypass and crumlin road also seem unaffected. seems that the direction with least options is coming from the south east - but you will be able to get in as far as donnybrook or merrion gates on a 50km/h speed limit. the notion that being restricted to 30km/h between donnybrook and the city centre is some major imposition, is kinda laughable.

kenmm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How are you going to discourage?

The 30km/h is the discouragement, which on its own is worth fu(k all (in my opinion) a it will be largely ignored in reality. The only way would be via large scale bans or congestion charging etc with large areas closed off. But even this takes time, investment and probably a bunch of fights with all sorts of other groups (business owners) etc. Probably a vote loser, which
seems to dictate most policy in Ireland (rather than doing research and finding what would be best for the city).

In an ideal world, we would build more transport options (because we want our cities full of people, business to grow, jobs created etc). That would mean huge expansion of Dublin bike, improved rail (maybe even underground options), more frequent and better bus system. A congestion charge that is fair* (tough one, as those with money will pay it anyway, those that really need a car will be screwed over).

Oh and all of this is to be free as well.

Shefwedfan

kenmm wrote: »

The 30km/h is the discouragement, which on its own is worth fu(k all (in my opinion) a it will be largely ignored in reality. The only way would be via large scale bans or congestion charging etc with large areas closed off. But even this takes time, investment and probably a bunch of fights with all sorts of other groups (business owners) etc. Probably a vote loser, which
seems to dictate most policy in Ireland (rather than doing research and finding what would be best for the city).

In an ideal world, we would build more transport options (because we want our cities full of people, business to grow, jobs created etc). That would mean huge expansion of Dublin bike, improved rail (maybe even underground options), more frequent and better bus system. A congestion charge that is fair* (tough one, as those with money will pay it anyway, those that really need a car will be screwed over).

Oh and all of this is to be free as well.

From a business/shop owner point of view shutting down the city centre will increase footfall. Families would have more interest in going into the city if they didnt have to breathe in fumes from cars and watch for some lunatic who thinks the traffic lights mean you need to go faster to break them. Imagine having the ability to walk from O'Connell street up past trinity and to grafton street and down to Aviva without dodging cars every 5 seconds.



Even from a cyclist point of view with no cars you would do it in 10-15 mins without the cars trying to kill you


I thought a congestion charge would work but then you see a traffic jam in the port tunnel. So what would congestion charge be set up 10? 20? personally I would set it to 30. All the money is invested into public transport.



Dublin bikes could be upgraded in a week. Introduce a proper systemn with elkectric scooters like the rest of Europe has. Loads of options available.

kenmm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

From a business/shop owner point of view shutting down the city centre will increase footfall. Families would have more interest in going into the city if they didnt have to breathe in fumes from cars and watch for some lunatic who thinks the traffic lights mean you need to go faster to break them. Imagine having the ability to walk from O'Connell street up past trinity and to grafton street and down to Aviva without dodging cars every 5 seconds.



Even from a cyclist point of view with no cars you would do it in 10-15 mins without the cars trying to kill you


I thought a congestion charge would work but then you see a traffic jam in the port tunnel. So what would congestion charge be set up 10? 20? personally I would set it to 30. All the money is invested into public transport.



Dublin bikes could be upgraded in a week. Introduce a proper systemn with elkectric scooters like the rest of Europe has. Loads of options available.

Exactly - so doing one thing (30 limit) alone isn't enough (although maybe there are more plans in the pipeline anyway, who knows).

Research and invest, that's what's needed. Find out the facts and model/ test this.