A 30 KPH limit for Dublin

Hurrache

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

they now impede motorists as there is a glut of them at the front and the cars cannot safely get passed. it takes time for that glut to thin out while the faster cyclists move to the front.

The idea that people in cars are impeded by people on bikes is the problem though, not the fact that cyclists can filter to the top of the queue of traffic. Some people in cars feel that they simply shouldn't be slowed by people on bikes, and it results in them pulling off some absolute dicks moves to put the people on bikes back in their place, i.e. behind them, with little thoughts to the dangers that puts people in.

Cilldara_2000

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

In relation to the running the red light thing though, I actually think cyclists are better off running the red if it's safe to do so
As you mentioned when you stop at a red you do no impede other cyclists. However if enough cyclists filter up to the top (which they inevitably do) and stop, when the light goes green, they now impede motorists as there is a glut of them at the front and the cars cannot safely get passed. it takes time for that glut to thin out while the faster cyclists move to the front.
Then it happens again at the next set of lights.
Result: Everyone is going slower and there are more CO2 emissions from cars idling at lights.

If there's a bike box at the top of the junction, cyclists have every right to be in it, and the rules of the road oblige motorists to allow them time and space to move off safely when the traffic light changes to green.

The motorists who don't realise that they're supposed to stop at the first white line and not the last white line, or have no idea where the front of the car is relative to their head, or just don't gaf, are a pox on everyone.

Hamsterchops

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

If there's a bike box at the top of the junction, cyclists have every right to be in it, and the rules of the road oblige motorists to allow them time and space to move off safely when the traffic light changes to green.

The motorists who don't realise that they're supposed to stop at the first white line and not the last white line, or have no idea where the front of the car is relative to their head, or just don't gaf, are a pox on everyone.

Well said, and if there's one thing that amuses & annoys me (at the same time) it's drivers that pass over the STOP line, edging across the cycle box, sometimes going past the second stop line and into the pedestrian, lane

Sometime I think they might just as well carry on and go through in the red as they're nearly across the junction anyway

Lots of L and N drivers doing it too, and they not being taught about the Stop line & the cycle box?

CramCycle

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I understand the argument you are making. You're assuming that the same proportion of motorists (in comparison with cyclists) will break a red light, but cannot because most of the time, that person (red light breaker) is not at the front of the line of traffic stopped at the lights.

It's one option, and truth be told, it isn't a complete picture.

I can put a big hole in your argument though, motorcyclists can filter to the front of the line of traffic, and as such have ample opportunity to run a red. Motorcyclists very rarely do this. I cannot remember the last time I rode up to the front of a line of traffic only to have another motorcyclists ride up behind me and break the red light. It doesn't happen.

Depends where you are, happens in Bray and on the N11 all the time, in Bray it is often blatant, but up around Stepaside or in town, I never see it but I would also, anecdoetally speaking, have put MBers in the more careful and more aware crowd than others, typically more aware of what a mistake means, although that has changed slowly in more recent times, for the most part, I find MBers far better at obeying things like red lights etc.

Also you check the entry/exit to housing estates where only on or 2 cars is queuing at the lights, I think you'd find most cyclists will break the red.
Running red is a "cyclist thing"

Its not, and this is facetious, next time you are near the front at a red light in heavy traffic, count how many follow through on amber, the first few seconds of red and the number who go into a yellow box when they can't clear it. Painting it as a cyclist thing is BS, it is a person thing.

I get why cyclists do it, there is nothing coming and it looks safe to to so, and stopping/starting on a bicycle is an absolute pain in the ass (I used to be a commuting cyclist). For me the 30kph speed isn't the issue. It's random maneuvers and people pulling out of side roads that's the danger for cyclists.

I get the logic, but I don't agree, it is the same as it is for motorists in the majority of motorists, it is seen as convenient and time saving, nothing else.

In relation to the running the red light thing though, I actually think cyclists are better off running the red if it's safe to do so

In other countries maybe but regrettably our need to be stupid in thic country means people, if it were allowed, would start taking the piss and just steam rolling through.

As you mentioned when you stop at a red you do no impede other cyclists. However if enough cyclists filter up to the top (which they inevitably do) and stop, when the light goes green, they now impede motorists as there is a glut of them at the front and the cars cannot safely get passed. it takes time for that glut to thin out while the faster cyclists move to the front.
Then it happens again at the next set of lights.

Unless really light traffic, the cars always catch the rear of the next bunch of cars, so no, it doesn't really do anything.

Result: Everyone is going slower and there are more CO2 emissions from cars idling at lights.

If everyone stopped running ambers and reds, cars could progress quicker when they get a green light, engineers could actually tighten the sequence rather than the idiotic system of dead time to allow people to run through on Red and traffic would move quicker overall.

There needs to be an impartial study done traffic in our cities, that favors neither, bus, cycling, rail, tram, car, motorbike, walking, etc
And actually work out what ratio is optimal, and where we can improve things easily

100%, I can't see it happening but my money would be on public transport being ramped up.

Hamsterchops

Oh yes, common sense has finally prevailed, as the rediculous prospect of a 30km/h throughout Dublin city has been spectacularly shot down in flames, hurrah!

RTE news : Plan for 30km/h limit in Dublin city set to be dropped & scrapped for good.

http://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0519/1222707-dublin-speed-limit/

85603

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Oh yes, common sense has finally prevailed, as the rediculous prospect of a 30km/h throughout Dublin city has been spectacularly shot down in flames, hurrah!

RTE news : Plan for 30km/h limit in Dublin city set to be dropped & scrapped for good.

http://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0519/1222707-dublin-speed-limit/

Good stuff.

The roads are built for motorists. Nobody else. No carts and horses, no e-scooters, no bikes, no skateboarers, joggers or any other messers. Too dangerous a place for any playing around by vulnerable people.

Cyclists deserve a segregated network which keeps them out of the way. How good/bad, big/small that system might be is something for govt to decide.

And yes someones going to go on about a legal technicality, but just be real, post 1750 the roads are built for the economy on the basis of people and goods getting around quickly i.e cars/vans/trucks.
Its all about the motorist.

Thelonious Monk

85603 wrote: »

Good stuff.

The roads are built for motorists. Nobody else. No carts and horses, no e-scooters, no bikes, no skateboarers, joggers or any other messers. Too dangerous a place for any playing around by vulnerable people.

Cyclists deserve a segregated network which keeps them out of the way. How good/bad, big/small that system might be is something for govt to decide.

And yes someones going to go on about a legal technicality, but just be real, post 1750 the roads are built for the economy on the basis of people and goods getting around quickly i.e cars/vans/trucks.
Its all about the motorist.

Messers ffs. Anyway no the roads are for cyclists and scooters too, they'll be legislated for this year, so you're wrong there.

Larbre34

An absolute shambles as usual from the Traffic Dept of DCC, overreaching and creating ructions at every turn.

This was clearly telegraphed by Keegan a few weeks back, in an interview, when he saw what way the wind was blowing and he decided to pull out it before him and O'Brien were put through ringer by Council members for their incompetence.

85603

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Messers ffs. Anyway no the roads are for cyclists and scooters too, they'll be legislated for this year, so you're wrong there.

Yep, legally and technically.

But in terms of practicality the roads are designed for/around motorists. Nobodys building a road from athlone to dublin for the sake of cyclists or joggers.

The roads are all about facilitating the motorist, as they should be, and are very dangerous places if ones not at least in some kind of crash/safety cage.

In the future we'll look back aghast that people would once try to use bikes and other silly things like carts and e-scooters on them.

Pinch Flat

85603 wrote: »

But in terms of practicality the roads are designed for/around motorists.

Amazed at the foreseight of our forefathers 100's of years ago when the vast majority of what were dirt tracks for horse drawn carriages were paved and turned into regional and national roads.

And whereas motorways are solely designed for motorised traffic and off limits for cyclists, plenty of national roads that have been upgraded include hard shoulders, which cyclist can legally use.

85603 wrote: »

The roads are all about facilitating the motorist, as they should be, and are very dangerous places if ones not at least in some kind of crash/safety cage.

Who do you think makes the roads very dangerous places?

85603 wrote: »

In the future we'll look back aghast that people would once try to use bikes and other silly things like carts and e-scooters on them.

Or perhaps we'll look back and wonder how we became one of the most car dependent nations in Europe and how people will barely travel 200 yards without using their car?

Thelonious Monk

You're wasting your time, he was banned from the last cycling thread for trolling.

Tombo2001

Hurrache wrote: »

The idea that people in cars are impeded by people on bikes is the problem though, not the fact that cyclists can filter to the top of the queue of traffic. Some people in cars feel that they simply shouldn't be slowed by people on bikes, and it results in them pulling off some absolute dicks moves to put the people on bikes back in their place, i.e. behind them, with little thoughts to the dangers that puts people in.

Absolutely.

Drivers react to delays in complete different ways, depending on who is delaying them

If its a bin truck stopping in from of them, they have no problem whatsoever in slowing down and waiting

If its a big long line of car stopped at traffic lights, they have no problem sucking it up. Turn the radio on, have a look at the phone, take in the views.

But if its cyclists 'impeding' them, fukc that pal, I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it.

Hamsterchops

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Oh yes, common sense has finally prevailed, as the rediculous prospect of a 30km/h throughout Dublin city has been spectacularly shot down in flames, hurrah!

RTE news : Plan for 30km/h limit in Dublin city set to be dropped & scrapped for good.

http://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0519/1222707-dublin-speed-limit/

Hurray, some rare common sense seen from those in charge- a great way to start the morning

zell12

Meanwhile in Galway
Garda support 30km/h speed limit for Galway City

June 2020 - Garda Chief Superintendent Tom Curley has said he would be “absolutely delighted” to see a 30km/hr speed limit introduced across Galway City.

Thelonious Monk

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Absolutely.

Drivers react to delays in complete different ways, depending on who is delaying them

If its a bin truck stopping in from of them, they have no problem whatsoever in slowing down and waiting

If its a big long line of car stopped at traffic lights, they have no problem sucking it up. Turn the radio on, have a look at the phone, take in the views.

But if its cyclists 'impeding' them, fukc that pal, I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it.

In fairness sometimes they get out of their car and assault bin men with a wheel brace if a bin truck is holding them up.

Thelonious Monk

zell12 wrote: »

Meanwhile in Galway
Garda support 30km/h speed limit for Galway City

Has anyone ever even achieved 30km/h in Galway City? It's one big congested mess.

frozenfrozen

Didnt know there were gardai in galway city? Anyone seen one?

It's a pity this is looking like it will be dropped but I doubt it will be the last we see of this.

They should take a different approach.

Instead of putting 30km/h limits on wide roads like the quays they should design speed out of the roads with traffic calming. Narrow the lanes, raised crossings for pedestrians bus priority gates etc.

Not only would it force traffic to slow down and give priority to vulnerable road users it would make the inevitable change to 30kmh easier to swallow.

Putting up 30kmh signs and having inconsistent enforcement just pisses everyone off. Speed must be designed out of the city streets.

Larbre34

There is neither money nor political support for any of that.

Larbre34

zell12 wrote: »

Meanwhile in Galway
Garda support 30km/h speed limit for Galway City

Yeah well, nobody elected him to make speed limit bye laws. The City Council members will decide.

Seth Brundle

ronoc wrote: »

Putting up 30kmh signs and having inconsistent enforcement just pisses everyone off. Speed must be designed out of the city streets.

But a blanket 30km/h limit wouldn't piss everyone off. It would only piss off impatient drivers.

Larbre34

Seth Brundle wrote: »

But a blanket 30km/h limit wouldn't piss everyone off. It would only piss off impatient drivers.

This is done Seth. Dead and buried. Move on.

85603

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Amazed at the foreseight of our forefathers 100's of years ago when the vast majority of what were dirt tracks for horse drawn carriages were paved and turned into regional and national roads.

Forget about 100's of years ago. It doesnt matter.
Today the roads are built entirely for moving people and heavy goods, quickly, over long distances. Theyre built for motorists.
Everyone else is an 'also ran'.

Dick Turnip

85603 wrote: »

Today the roads are built entirely under the pretext of moving people and heavy goods, quickly, over long distances. Theyre built for motorists.
Everyone else is an 'also ran'.

And look where it's got us - Dublin is one of the most congested cities in the world :pac:

Time for a new approach maybe?

cnocbui

ronoc wrote: »

It's a pity this is looking like it will be dropped but I doubt it will be the last we see of this.

They should take a different approach.

Instead of putting 30km/h limits on wide roads like the quays they should design speed out of the roads with traffic calming. Narrow the lanes, raised crossings for pedestrians bus priority gates etc.

Not only would it force traffic to slow down and give priority to vulnerable road users it would make the inevitable change to 30kmh easier to swallow.

Putting up 30kmh signs and having inconsistent enforcement just pisses everyone off. Speed must be designed out of the city streets.

Do you think the ambulance and fire services would agree with you, along with delivery drivers, couriers and others who are on the road as their job? I couldn't disagree with you more.

85603

Dick Turnip wrote: »

And look where it's got us - Dublin is one of the most congested cities in the world :pac:

Time for a new approach maybe?

Yep. A mix of many new ideas, such as better bus scheduling, luas and train lines, maybe a metro some day, along with more housing/working options further outside the city. And *SOME* cycle infrastructure.

Just not the automatic fulfillment of the neo-cyclist-fronts long list of demands.
Have some cycle lanes, kept segregated from the road network. People have work to do.

Thelonious Monk

cnocbui wrote: »

Do you think the ambulance and fire services would agree with you, along with delivery drivers, couriers and others who are on the road as their job? I couldn't disagree with you more.

Good article here on Traffic Calming Measures and Low Traffic Neighbourhoods in London, and how they haven't affected emergency services at all really

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2021/apr/23/opponents-of-ltns-claim-they-delay-emergency-services-but-look-at-the-facts

Thelonious Monk

85603 wrote: »

Just not the automatic fulfillment of the neo-cyclist-fronts long list of demands.
Have some cycle lanes, kept segregated from the road network. People have work to do.

You'll be shocked to hear that thousands of people cycle to work in Dublin every day, and the current strategy for most progressive cities is to reduce private car access to city centres, so get used to it, the hard pressed motorist is going to get even harder presseder.

Pinch Flat

85603 wrote: »

Forget about 100's of years ago. It doesnt matter.
Today the roads are built entirely for moving people and heavy goods, quickly, over long distances. Theyre built for motorists.
Everyone else is an 'also ran'.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets, which sets out aspirations for design of roads and our towns and cities, would would disagree. You can read it here if you fancy some bed time reading:

https://assets.gov.ie/11220/b5029e9eb129473d917b66e467f1eefd.pdf

"Well designed streets can create connected physical, social and transport networks that promote real alternatives to car journeys, namely walking, cycling or public transport."

Dick Turnip

85603 wrote: »

Yep. A mix of many new ideas, such as better bus scheduling, luas and train lines, maybe a metro some day, along with more housing/working options further outside the city. And *SOME* cycle infrastructure.

Just not the automatic fulfillment of the neo-cyclist-fronts long list of demands.
Have some cycle lanes, kept segregated from the road network. People have work to do.

I 100% agree about better bus scheduling & luas and train lines though. But let's see the outcry over the next few years as Bus Connects gets rolled out and some traffic lanes become bus lanes. People all want better everything in theory but aren't prepared to sacrifice anything to achieve it. Mannix Flynn supports better cycling infrastructure apparently yet blocks every single new project be it in DCC, Fingal, South Dublin or DL-Rathdown! :pac:


Anyway, I'm a cyclist in city centre (I'm a driver too, believe it or not a lot of cyclists are!) and I'm not overly bothered by the speed limit being 30 or 50kph personally. However, I'd love to know what this long list of demands are that are being delivered to cyclists? The infrastructure in this city is pathetic, a few piece meal paths that don't link up in any meaningful way.

However, well designed paths and projects like the Grand Canal route from Portobello to GDC, the coastal routes from Clontarf to Howth, and from Blackrock to Sandycove, show that once built right, they will be used heavily.