Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
A 30 KPH limit for Dublin
Options
Comments
-
That's exactly the logic. Not only in this example is the truck driver to blame, but generalisations will be made that imply all Irish truck drivers are to blame.Deleted User wrote: »By your logic, if a Micra deliberately pulls out in front of an articulated truck, and the truck hits it, the truck is the one at fault, because the Micra didn't consider anyone but itself.
This part is just a straight up falsehood. A driver that is obeying traffic controls, driving at reasonable speed and in a reasonably defensive manner, is not going to kill someone "simply because they use a different mode of transport."AndrewJRenko wrote: »The reason is fairly obvious - because no-one should be killing someone else - someone's husband or wife, someone's mother or father, someone's daughter or son - simply because they use a different mode of transport.
As a pedestrian you do have to be in a state of relaxed awareness because of all the lawbreakers on two wheels who don't know what a red light is or what a footpath is for.This is quite hilarious, coming from the guy who claims to be terrified of menacing, threatening cyclists every time he exits his front door.
Relaxed awareness is also the state you should be in while driving in Ireland. "Worried" is appropriate for driving a military convoy through Fallujah or if you're a truck driver in India. If someone is in a state of worry driving on Irish roads they are either:- Driving dangerously, illegally or doing something weird themselves.
- Are living in a fantasy world where their sense of danger is totally disconnected from empirical and observable reality.
Well, considering there are (at least as of the end of 2016) 2,820,528 drivers in this country, I'd like to know how we all collectively kill 2 or 3 people every week. Do we have a meeting every week where we all get together and decide who is going to lose control of their car, who is going to commit suicide with their car, who is going to have a pedestrian run out in front of them without looking, who will be involved in a multi-vehicle collision, etc?Motorists continue to kill 2 or 3 people each week on Irish roads.
Or, is your claim that the loosely defined group "motorists" kill X people simply a way to tar 2,820,528+ people with the actions of a very small number, many of whom are not even motorists?
More falsehoods. Irish air quality is almost universally good, and Irish life expectancy is among the highest in the world, only 3 years behind Japan. Traffic congestion is also a worldwide problem, one which is not specific to Ireland nor linked to Irish policies.You're broadly correct here, in that we've suffered from decades of car-dominated planning and policy, and we're now paying the price in terms of traffic chaos, pollution and poor public health.0 -
AndrewJRenko wrote: »
No mention of the 30kmph issue in that tweet. Given that it's coming from Galway, it's a fair bet that they're not too invested in the 30 kmph issue in Dublin. I haven't heard of any suggestion of a 30 kmph proposal in Galway.
So no, they're not addressing the 'wimpy 30 kmph cause'. They're just calling on drivers to stop killing children.
.
These coonts want a 30km on all urban, and possibly all rural, roads.
I remember reading about a law that came in in Sydney Australia. A young man was killed in a one punch assault at 9 o clock on a Saturday evening in a nightclub district, and the local government, which was populated with alcohol averse puritans, brought in ridiculous laws that curbed opening hours for bars and clubs. Despite the fact it happened early in the evening and the attacker had been street drinking all day i.e. it had nothing to do with nightclubs.
The man's friends were appalled, saying that as a fun loving young man the last thing he would have wanted was his name to be used in a war on people's social lives.
That is what these utter scum in the Galway Cycling Club have done with these children. Assumed that they and their families are as thick as they themselves are. It's disgusting.0 -
crooked cockney villain wrote: »These coonts want a 30km on all urban, and possibly all rural, roads.
I remember reading about a law that came in in Sydney Australia. A young man was killed in a one punch assault at 9 o clock on a Saturday evening in a nightclub district, and the local government, which was populated with alcohol averse puritans, brought in ridiculous laws that curbed opening hours for bars and clubs. Despite the fact it happened early in the evening and the attacker had been street drinking all day i.e. it had nothing to do with nightclubs.
The man's friends were appalled, saying that as a fun loving young man the last thing he would have wanted was his name to be used in a war on people's social lives.
That is what these utter scum in the Galway Cycling Club have done with these children. Assumed that they and their families are as thick as they themselves are. It's disgusting.
Why do need to lie about rural roads to have something to actually moan about?
Again, what the Galway folks are looking for is that we stop killing children on our roads. Do you want to continue to kill children?0 -
AndrewJRenko wrote: »
Again, what the Galway folks are looking for is that we stop killing children on our roads. Do you want to continue to kill children?
:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:
It's gas when lefties pretend that they care about people.0 -
crooked cockney villain wrote: »:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:
It's gas when lefties pretend that they care about people.
Strange - I'd have thought that not killing children isn't really a right / left divide thing.0 -
Advertisement
-
AndrewJRenko wrote: »Strange - I'd have thought that not killing children isn't really a right / left divide thing.
I dunno. All the Refugees Welcome crowd were fairly quiet after the Manchester Arena/ Barcelona/ Stockholm. Or even tacitly supporting it.0 -
crooked cockney villain wrote: »I dunno. All the Refugees Welcome crowd were fairly quiet after the Manchester Arena/ Barcelona/ Stockholm. Or even tacitly supporting it.
Are you trying to drag this thread off topic now that you're finding it difficult to come up with rational answers?0 -
Seth Brundle wrote: »It really isn't a difficult statement to understand...
"So basically in your view, as urban planning (as decided by local councillors) was unsustainably centred around the car in the past, we need to continue with this policy regardless of all contrary evidence from international best practice?"
Designing urban areas around the car does not mean that cars should be excluded but that they should not be prioritised, which has been the case in Ireland to date.
More and more cities around the world are realising this and reallocating space on this basis. This makes urban areas safer and healthier for people. It also improves trade for local businesses. The evidence that it works is out there in abundance.
But there's nothing unsustainable in that though. Nothing is different, you're allocating space differently, but you're still building the road network for the car, anyway.
I'd argue that making a road, and then deliberately trying to hamper it with speed ramps, islands, signage, etc. is more unsustainable as it uses more resources, rather than a clean/clear roadway.
I think it's also important to remember that we're discussing Ireland here. Dublin is the capital, and from Carrickmines to Balbriggan is 40km, Howth to Lucan is 28km. And that's just within the border of Dublin. People who are at work in Dublin city centre travel from Louth, Cavan, Kildare, etc.
For people who live in Dublin, anti-car is fine, as public transport is generally decent enough (not everywhere but most parts, anyway) and you're rarely too far from work. You likely have the option of an e-bike or such.
Commuters are the ones who get nailed with this kinda nonsense. People who aren't wealthy enough to afford Dublin prices, but now are being treated like children also and their commute deliberately being made more difficult and cumbersome, with no realistic alternatives being provided.0 -
AndrewJRenko wrote: »Why do need to lie about rural roads to have something to actually moan about?
Again, what the Galway folks are looking for is that we stop killing children on our roads. Do you want to continue to kill children?
Just out of curiousity (and this may well have been posted earlier) are their figures showing how many children have been killed by cars in accidents on irish roads, where the child was a pedestrian (and not a passenger in another vehicle.. as that's an important part) in a 50 zone?
Also, do keep in mind, that when you lower a speed limit to a very low speed, if it's not realistic, then people will simply ignore it. The only drivers who may pay attention to it are the ones that have to (An Post, Bus Drivers, etc. if they have tech in their car that forces them to adhere to the rules). Which just means slower post/bus services.AndrewJRenko wrote: »the number of single occupancy cars being driven for short journeys that could easily be walked or cycled.
How do you know if a journey could have been walked or cycled? Also, why does a single-occupancy car lend itself more to a journey that could have been walked or cycled?
What's your logic there?AndrewJRenko wrote: »So it OK for vehicles to kill or maim those who are incapable of irresponsible road usage?
I presume you mean incapable of 'responsible' road usage, and yes.. you're likely to be killed or injured if you take to the roads, whilst being incapable of being responsible. That's generally what happens around the world and why we have things like driving tests and various licenses in place.0 -
So there is nothing unsustainable about prioritising cars over active travel in urban areas?Deleted User wrote: »But there's nothing unsustainable in that though. Nothing is different, you're allocating space differently, but you're still building the road network for the car, anyway.
Really?
Do you mean traffic calming - why bring this into a conversation about reallocating road space in urban areas?Deleted User wrote: »I'd argue that making a road, and then deliberately trying to hamper it with speed ramps, islands, signage, etc. is more unsustainable as it uses more resources, rather than a clean/clear roadway.
I hadn't forgotten where I am, nor have I forgotten that many people travel long commutes because of an unsustainable housing and land use policy used by successive governments which encourages urban sprawl.Deleted User wrote: »I think it's also important to remember that we're discussing Ireland here. Dublin is the capital, and from Carrickmines to Balbriggan is 40km, Howth to Lucan is 28km. And that's just within the border of Dublin. People who are at work in Dublin city centre travel from Louth, Cavan, Kildare, etc.
This coupled with successive under-funding in public transport necessitates the need for car based transport. Sustainable transport policies would encourage the use of public transport for example.
Both the housing and transport policies in Ireland are unsustainable. We cannot continue with this model and although while the policies are changing, they are not changing fast enough to meet either demand or needs.
So you agree with me that it is unsustainable in Dublin and that we should be encouraging alternative means of transport?Deleted User wrote: »For people who live in Dublin, anti-car is fine, as public transport is generally decent enough (not everywhere but most parts, anyway) and you're rarely too far from work. You likely have the option of an e-bike or such.
Do you disagree with this for Cork? Limerick? Galway? Athlone? etc.
Do you think it is ok for anyone to hop in a car and drive somewhere rather than hop on a bike or walk? As most car journeys are apparently less than 2km, is it wise to make it easier for people to drive than to use an alternative?
Ah ok. So we should allow anyone from outside say the M50 to drive in just because? But can they all drive on the same day? Is there enough road space for them all? Is it sustainable to have them all driving pretty much as single occupants in a car taking up space from busses or bikes? Where will they all park?Deleted User wrote: »Commuters are the ones who get nailed with this kinda nonsense. People who aren't wealthy enough to afford Dublin prices, but now are being treated like children also and their commute deliberately being made more difficult and cumbersome, with no realistic alternatives being provided.
Is the lifestyle of people spending hours each day sitting in their car healthy? Is it sustainable?
To be honest, i don't think you understand what sustainable transport is about.0 -
Advertisement
-
Seth Brundle wrote: »I do not. However, what you describe as Jay walking is not an offence. You are describing people crossing a road.
have you cleared this up yet? I carried out this act yesterday but wasnt sure what I was doing, missed a Garda car by about 10 seconds to test n'all, was I "crossing" or "jaywalking"?A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
0 -
I understand your point and that it is illegal to cross a road close to a pedestrian crossing. This crossing law is largely unenforced.silverharp wrote: »have you cleared this up yet? I carried out this act yesterday but wasnt sure what I was doing, missed a Garda car by about 10 seconds to test n'all, was I "crossing" or "jaywalking"?
However, jaywalking as it is commonly understood is not an offence here. It is simply crossing a road. Similarly it is not a term used in Ireland save by those eager to make a point.0 -
AndrewJRenko wrote: »Strange - I'd have thought that not killing children isn't really a right / left divide thing.
How many children have been killed by cars - not backing buses - in Dublin the last 5 years, and would alower speed limit have prevented any of those accidents?0 -
Are you mixing me up with somebody who does your research for you?Deleted User wrote: »Just out of curiousity (and this may well have been posted earlier) are their figures showing how many children have been killed by cars in accidents on irish roads, where the child was a pedestrian (and not a passenger in another vehicle.. as that's an important part) in a 50 zone?
BTW, they are crashes, not accidents.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2021/05/17/its-crash-not-accident-road-collision-reporting-guidelines-issued/
Great point, we do need to bring in speed governors on cars as soon as possible. Isn't it laughable to hear people obsessing about speed limits for scooters and ebikes, while we routinely put cars on the roads that can do 200 kmph and more?Deleted User wrote: »Also, do keep in mind, that when you lower a speed limit to a very low speed, if it's not realistic, then people will simply ignore it. The only drivers who may pay attention to it are the ones that have to (An Post, Bus Drivers, etc. if they have tech in their car that forces them to adhere to the rules). Which just means slower post/bus services.
Large numbers of car journeys are short distances that could easily be walked or cycled. Driving round a car with four empty seats isn't a great use of the limited road space that we have available.Deleted User wrote: »How do you know if a journey could have been walked or cycled? Also, why does a single-occupancy car lend itself more to a journey that could have been walked or cycled?
What's your logic there?Deleted User wrote: »I presume you mean incapable of 'responsible' road usage, and yes.. you're likely to be killed or injured if you take to the roads, whilst being incapable of being responsible. That's generally what happens around the world and why we have things like driving tests and various licenses in place.
I was referring to use of five-seated vehicles with four empty seats for short journeys of distances that could easily be walked or cycled as irresponsible.
That's a big part of what is holding up CCV's important journeys after work, so presumably he'll feel entitled to crush them with his vehicle so he can get home quicker.0 -
-
AndrewJRenko wrote: »Are you mixing me up with somebody who does your research for you?
You are the one peddling the think of the children meme. I thought it possible you might not be doing that without knowing what you are talking about; my bad.
Lets think of the hypothetical children who may or may not exist and who may or may not be dying annualy on Dublin roads.0 -
You are the one peddling the think of the children meme. I thought it possible you might not be doing that without knowing what you are talking about; my bad.
Lets think of the hypothetical children who may or may not exist and who may or may not be dying annualy on Dublin roads.
The RSA produce the statistics on road fatalities which you can look up.
In the case of both pedestrians and cyclists, half of the fatalities occurred on roads with speed limits of 50kph. Those speed limits would be reduced if the proposals are enacted.
From memory of an article that I read, based on an international study, the risk of fatality in a 30kph collision with a pedestrian was circa 1%; at 50kph, it was circa 10% and at 80kph, it was circa 90%. Hence the push for lowering the speed limits in urban areas worldwide.0 -
You are the one peddling the think of the children meme. I thought it possible you might not be doing that without knowing what you are talking about; my bad.
Lets think of the hypothetical children who may or may not exist and who may or may not be dying annualy on Dublin roads.
I'm not the one actually. It was CCV that brought it up.0 -
Seth Brundle wrote: »So there is nothing unsustainable about prioritising cars over active travel in urban areas?
Really?
Do you mean traffic calming - why bring this into a conversation about reallocating road space in urban areas?
I hadn't forgotten where I am, nor have I forgotten that many people travel long commutes because of an unsustainable housing and land use policy used by successive governments which encourages urban sprawl.
This coupled with successive under-funding in public transport necessitates the need for car based transport. Sustainable transport policies would encourage the use of public transport for example.
Both the housing and transport policies in Ireland are unsustainable. We cannot continue with this model and although while the policies are changing, they are not changing fast enough to meet either demand or needs.
So you agree with me that it is unsustainable in Dublin and that we should be encouraging alternative means of transport?
Do you disagree with this for Cork? Limerick? Galway? Athlone? etc.
Do you think it is ok for anyone to hop in a car and drive somewhere rather than hop on a bike or walk? As most car journeys are apparently less than 2km, is it wise to make it easier for people to drive than to use an alternative?
Ah ok. So we should allow anyone from outside say the M50 to drive in just because? But can they all drive on the same day? Is there enough road space for them all? Is it sustainable to have them all driving pretty much as single occupants in a car taking up space from busses or bikes? Where will they all park?
Is the lifestyle of people spending hours each day sitting in their car healthy? Is it sustainable?
To be honest, i don't think you understand what sustainable transport is about.AndrewJRenko wrote: »Are you mixing me up with somebody who does your research for you?
BTW, they are crashes, not accidents.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2021/05/17/its-crash-not-accident-road-collision-reporting-guidelines-issued/
Great point, we do need to bring in speed governors on cars as soon as possible. Isn't it laughable to hear people obsessing about speed limits for scooters and ebikes, while we routinely put cars on the roads that can do 200 kmph and more?
Large numbers of car journeys are short distances that could easily be walked or cycled. Driving round a car with four empty seats isn't a great use of the limited road space that we have available.
I was referring to use of five-seated vehicles with four empty seats for short journeys of distances that could easily be walked or cycled as irresponsible.
That's a big part of what is holding up CCV's important journeys after work, so presumably he'll feel entitled to crush them with his vehicle so he can get home quicker.
Largely nonsensical responses from both of you, to be fair, who fail to view the situation as-is and instead are clearly not affected by car issues (both live near work, is my guess, and the sense of "pull the ladder up" is fairly strong).
When discussing the issue, for example, you can't say things like "well cars only need to be used because of urban sprawl, and if we just built upwards it'd be okay" because we don't build upwards and there is urban sprawl. So the car is needed. It's a pointless argument.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Largely nonsensical responses from both of you, to be fair, who fail to view the situation as-is and instead are clearly not affected by car issues (both live near work, is my guess, and the sense of "pull the ladder up" is fairly strong).
When discussing the issue, for example, you can't say things like "well cars only need to be used because of urban sprawl, and if we just built upwards it'd be okay" because we don't build upwards and there is urban sprawl. So the car is needed. It's a pointless argument.
Their point is that the situation as-is is not sustainable and doesn’t work well (as our traffic jams show). Hence, we have to acknowledge that, and act to counteract it. Endlessly repeating a model which has led to the current problems isn’t going to do anything other than make the problems worse.
You can’t for instance put more and more cars into Dublin City centre during rush hour when the physical infrastructure there can’t handle the current volume of cars, unless you plan to demolish increasing amounts of the city centre to make more and more roads for those additional cars.0 -
Advertisement
-
Your being dismissive of reality.Deleted User wrote: »Largely nonsensical responses from both of you, to be fair, who fail to view the situation as-is and instead are clearly not affected by car issues (both live near work, is my guess, and the sense of "pull the ladder up" is fairly strong).
When discussing the issue, for example, you can't say things like "well cars only need to be used because of urban sprawl, and if we just built upwards it'd be okay" because we don't build upwards and there is urban sprawl. So the car is needed. It's a pointless argument.
Nobody is denying that cars are needed. However, the prioritisation of cars must change because prioritising the least efficient form of transport is not sustainable when looking at urban area travel. You cannot deny this or blame it the greens or any other nonsense. This is as a result of successive governments here.
People commuting need choices rather than having thousands of cars being driven, most carrying only the driver.
There is simply not enough room in our urban areas to allow everyone to travel by car as and when they feel like it. We have in the past designed for cars which in turn discouraged cycling or public transport. This is changing because in reality it has to.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Largely nonsensical responses from both of you, to be fair, who fail to view the situation as-is and instead are clearly not affected by car issues (both live near work, is my guess, and the sense of "pull the ladder up" is fairly strong).
When discussing the issue, for example, you can't say things like "well cars only need to be used because of urban sprawl, and if we just built upwards it'd be okay" because we don't build upwards and there is urban sprawl. So the car is needed. It's a pointless argument.
You're ignoring the fact that many cars journeys are for short distances that are easily walked or cycled.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/more-than-half-of-travellers-use-cars-for-journeys-under-2km-1.23034510 -
The Transport Policy Committee of the City Council has referred the 30 limit issue to the meeting next month of the full Council, for a decision on whether to proceed further with the extension of 30 to main routes or to cease any further work and leave limits largely as they are. The latter is likely to be carried by a significant majority.0
-
The RSA produce the statistics on road fatalities which you can look up.
In the case of both pedestrians and cyclists, half of the fatalities occurred on roads with speed limits of 50kph. Those speed limits would be reduced if the proposals are enacted.
This proposal covers a specific set of 50kph roads, which are not necessarily the type of roads on which those fatalities occurred."To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
0 -
AndrewJRenko wrote: »You're ignoring the fact that many cars journeys are for short distances that are easily walked or cycled.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/more-than-half-of-travellers-use-cars-for-journeys-under-2km-1.2303451
I used to live beside a Dart station for about two years. I would only use it when going into town for a drink, as driving most places was far cheaper than a return Dart trip. Not to mention
- it was chronically unreliable and prone to stopping and sitting for 10 plus minutes with no explanation. One night the whole network shut down because there were geese on the track at Grand Canal, and of course under union rules the driver getting out of the cab with a sweeping brush was someone else's job to do
- the design is awful, the seats facing each other give you zero leg room at rush hour.
An exceptionally bad service, I'm continually baffled as to how living beside the line adds a premium to the price of a house. I wouldn't use it if it was free.0 -
Dublin Area Rapid Transit.0
-
Hamsterchops wrote: »RTE news : Plan for 30km/h limit in Dublin city set to be dropped & scrapped for good.
http://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0519/1222707-dublin-speed-limit/
From three weeks ago, the 11th of May.0 -
crooked cockney villain wrote: »I used to live beside a Dart station for about two years. I would only use it when going into town for a drink, as driving most places was far cheaper than a return Dart trip. Not to mention
- it was chronically unreliable and prone to stopping and sitting for 10 plus minutes with no explanation. One night the whole network shut down because there were geese on the track at Grand Canal, and of course under union rules the driver getting out of the cab with a sweeping brush was someone else's job to do
- the design is awful, the seats facing each other give you zero leg room at rush hour.
An exceptionally bad service, I'm continually baffled as to how living beside the line adds a premium to the price of a house. I wouldn't use it if it was free.
It's better than the bus!
About the seating, I totally know wat you're talking about.
The Older models (8100 Class) were built in France and Refurbed in Germany and are actually quite comfortable, they've lasted 37 years so far and are still going.
The newer ones, (8500, 8510 and 8520 Classes) were built in Japan, they don't seem to be lasting as well and were poorly designed. Some don't have opening windows, seats are in bits and too close together like you mentioned, and passenger info like the announcement system and the active map of where the train is don't work anymore.... The ergonomics make me feel like the train was designed for short people. :rolleyes:0 -
We dont need cars travelling at the same speed that a bicycle can reach, better infrastructure saves lives not forcing people to move at an unnaturally slow speed and since the public have said the same this should just not be a thing.0
-
Advertisement
-
I am more in favour of variable limits where they can be brought in.
The difference between 30kph and 50kph is more the lack of being able to use the Cruise control button avoid accidentally going above the speed limit.
Other than that - well i find in many parts of the city I don't get much above 30kph so its little difference.0
![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
Advertisement