22,698 people recovered in Ireland so far. But how many of them are 100% ok after?

ceadaoin.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The asymptomatic are in a far worse position. It's a question then of dormancy and when it starts to attack the immune system, when it 'activates'. Is it when the person hits 21, 30, 45, 50 or 60? Will it activate at the first sign of weakness - i.e common illness? Is it measured in months or years before activation? Will it activate based on the season?

No one knows.

This is why it so dangerous.

Lol. youre losing the run of yourself completely now. Please tell me you dont actually believe half the stuff you write. The reality of the virus that we are seeing now isn't nearly as scary for you as you'd like so you have to make outlandish predictions and try to pass them off as fact? There is zero evidence for what you just said.

No one can prove that it didn't come to earth from outer space on a meteor to infect everyone and await the alien invasion where it will be activated en masse by our new overlords. No one knows...but it seems unlikely.

Peregrinus

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Even if you have had it and 'recovered' that may not be the end of the story.

No one knows the complications this disease can cause.

This is part of the problem. If it was a simple cold or flu no country would be closed up. But it's not and no one knows what the complications are for those you have had it.

The asymptomatic are in a far worse position. It's a question then of dormancy and when it starts to attack the immune system, when it 'activates' . . .

It doesn't attack the immune system; the immune system attacks it. It is in fact the immune system going into overdrive which is in fact the immediate cause of most of the obvious symptoms. Most asymptomatic cases are likely the result of the immune system attacking the virus successfully at an early stage. Asymptomatic sufferers do not remain infected indefinitely.

The main problem with asymptomatic cases is that, while they are infected, they are infectious, but generally neither they nor anyone around them knows that they are. Most or all cases have an asymptomatic period of a week or so before they develop symptoms; some have a longer asymptomatic period and never develop symptoms. It is the fact that sufferers can be asymptomatic but infectious that makes it very difficult to control the spread of the disease.

Kermit.de.frog

ceadaoin. wrote: »

There is zero evidence for what you just said.

There is zero evidence for everything.

That's the problem.

You can insult me all you like, water off a frog's back.

:cool:

Kermit.de.frog

Peregrinus wrote: »

It doesn't attack the immune system; the immune system attacks it. It is in fact the immune system going into overdrive which is in fact the immediate cause of most of the obvious symptoms. Most asymptomatic cases are likely the result of the immune system attacking the virus successfully at an early stage. Asymptomatic sufferers do not remain infected indefinitely.

The main problem with asymptomatic cases is that, while they are infected, they are infectious, but generally neither they nor anyone around them knows that they are. Most or all cases have an asymptomatic period of a week or so before they develop symptoms; some have a longer asymptomatic period and never develop symptoms. It is the fact that sufferers can be asymptomatic but infectious that makes it very difficult to control the spread of the disease.

You're just wrong on all of that. And very foolish if you actually believe it.

This is why we are in so much trouble - people thinking they are immunologists and virologists all of a sudden.

What I say is reality - we don't know - and what you say is nonsense. Very annoying. My reality has to be put level with your nonsense in the interest of 'balance'.

It flusters me.

But you're entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own 'facts'.

:cool:

kaymin

MickeyLeari wrote: »

Would that be Covid 20 or Covid 21? Or perhaps it could be one of the 18 previous Covid viruses which could be still around?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/health/simon-harris-sorry-for-awful-boo-boo-about-18-viruses-before-covid-19-1.4235478%3fmode=amp

Peregrinus

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You're just wrong on all of that. And very foolish if you actually believe it.

This is why we are in so much trouble - people thinking they are immunologists and virologists all of a sudden.

What I say is reality - we don't know - and what you say is nonsense. Very annoying. My reality has to be put level with your nonsense in the interest of 'balance'.

It flusters me.

But you're entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own 'facts'.

:cool:

It's fact that the immune system attacks the virus, and not the other way around. That's pretty much all the immune system does; attack viruses, microbes, germs that it identifies as "foreign". Seriously, you didn't know that?

So your belief that the virus attacks the immune system is an opinion, but defitnitely not a fact.

Simlarly, your belief that in asymptomatic CV19 cases the virus is latent and awaiting "activation" is an opinion but not a fact; the virus is not latent at all. I think you, or the person who is informing you, may be confusing viral latency and clinical latency.

The Bishop Basher

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Well yes, there are many other viruses and illnesses besides covid. If they tested negative, chances are it was/is something else and not just a false result. If they think they still have it why not get another test?

I find it strange how a lot of these people having long lasting and varied symptoms have tested negative.

My wife also had all the symptoms but tested negative. If she didn’t have Covid then she must have contracted another severe illness with exactly the same symptoms but that’s unlikely and the GP told her the tests are unreliable and that it’s very likely she had it.

He also told her about a family had had sent for testing. They all had Covid symptoms yet only 2 of them tested positive.

Peregrinus

It's known that the test does throw up false negatives. This is unfortunate, but we are where we are. A test that is only 80% reliable (or whatever) is still more useful than no test at all. You just need to understand its limitations

We don't have a handle on the false negative rate. It partly depends on how carefully the test is administered, but it appears that it also depends on where you are in the cycle of infection. If you are tested very shortly after being exposed (and infected), you may very well get a false negative. But in patients who have been symptomatic for several days before they get tested, the false negative rate seems to be much lower.

On the plus side, the test gives very few false positives. It does give some, but very few. If you test positive, then you can be pretty certain that you do, in fact, have CV19.

faceman

OP did you read the articles you shared? There’s an element of scaremongering in your post granted I can see it’s unintentional.

Respiratory issues can cause neurological responses, this is not new. The flu and measles are no different.

Many of the neurological responses are temporary such as the effect on smell or taste. Viruses like this cause a strong immune reaction hence why.

It should be noted that anything more severe is rare.

Away With The Fairies

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I'm specifically talking about the people who claim to be having wide ranging symptoms for months on end, and despite negative tests, they are convinced its covid 19. Just like "chronic" lyme disease, there is no evidence that this is a thing in relation to coronavirus. All I'm saying is take what you read on facebook with a grain of salt.

Tests fail. You should read the other posts here with some family testing positive and some negative. If the virus is the house, there's no doubt that they all have it.

As for "chronic" Lyme, maybe you should try educating yourself, Irish tests are useless and show up alot of negatives. Something to do with the type of tests they do here. There seems to be more accurate testing in Germany and that's what people have to do if they suspect lyme and want accurate results... But never mind it's all made up, the latest bandwagon illness.

Away With The Fairies

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's fact that the immune system attacks the virus, and not the other way around. That's pretty much all the immune system does; attack viruses, microbes, germs that it identifies as "foreign". Seriously, you didn't know that?

So your belief that the virus attacks the immune system is an opinion, but defitnitely not a fact.

Simlarly, your belief that in asymptomatic CV19 cases the virus is latent and awaiting "activation" is an opinion but not a fact; the virus is not latent at all. I think you, or the person who is informing you, may be confusing viral latency and clinical latency.

Chicken pox can lie dormant and re-surface as shingles.

Aot of people's immune system is good at suppressing the cold sore virus and warts but they too can re-surface.

To tell that poster is just an opinion is absolutely stupid. We do not know how this will affect people in the future.

Peregrinus

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Chicken pox can lie dormant and re-surface as shingles.

Aot of people's immune system is good at suppressing the cold sore virus and warts but they too can re-surface.

To tell that poster is just an opinion is absolutely stupid. We do not know how this will affect people in the future.

I was responding to a claim that the established phenomenon of clinically latent (asymptomatic) CV19 arises because the virus is latent.

It doesn't. While viral latency is, as you point out, a real thing, it has nothing to do with the asymptomatic period of CV19. During the asymptomatic period the virus is not latent, but active.

It is possible that SARS-Cov-2 wil manifest viral latency but so far as I know there is as yet no evidence that it does.

Away With The Fairies

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/06/covid-19-coronavirus-longterm-symptoms-months/612679/?fbclid=IwAR05K6DU10W-jUHjeps601Mbkt04X7YARv6R54khwpoLSJJLsQfRDH06N68

Some people with 60, 70, 80 days of symptoms. It can take a long time to recover from this. Nearly everybody with ebola has some long term chronic complication.

s1ippy

If anyone wants more information on this drop me a PM with your email address and a brief line about your interest.

I'm part of a group "Body Politic" on an app called Slack where people with long-term symptoms detail their experiences.

There's a group for people who have been suffering for over 90 days.

Here is an article shared recently about the long-term effects:
https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/612679/

Edit: just saw your link to it AWTF!

https://bestpractice.bmj.com/topics/en-gb/3000168/treatment-algorithm#patientGroup-0-1
Here's the best practice advice for dealing with the virus as a bonus because I copied you

ShineOn7

https://twitter.com/SimonHarrisTD/status/1270773923286847488


That's nice and all Simon but how many of these 92% don't need months of physio to walk again? Or haven't lost 20% of their lung capacity?

We need better data from the briefings as to what exactly "recovered" is

ShineOn7

Benimar wrote: »

I only know one person who had it. Ended up hospitalised.

3 weeks after being discharged they were still barely able to move off the bed/couch.

'Recovered' is a bit vague I think.

How are they doing now?

Pablo Escobar

I’m one of the many who think there’s a chance I had the virus back in February. Obviously it may be totally coincidental, but I had symptoms of pneumonia. Not ever having had it before, I had no idea what it was and it was gone before I went for help (about 3 days of pneumonia symptoms). Anyway, that was 4 months ago and my lungs still are not right. I think it’s actually fairly normal for viral pneumonia to have an effect for months after. It has improved but lingering.

ShineOn7

Confirmation just now in today's briefing; "recovered" doesn't mean you're 100% (or even 70%) back to normal and it can take weeks/months to get there

This bástard virus is a weird one

Peregrinus

ShineOn7 wrote: »

Confirmation just now in today's briefing; "recovered" doesn't mean you're 100% (or even 70%) back to normal and it can take weeks/months to get there

This bástard virus is a weird one

Not that weird. CV19 is not the only disease that tends to have a long convalescent period. It's typical of pneumonia, for instance, and CV19 s often associated with pneumonia. The symptoms of whooping cough linger for about 3 months, although the longest-lasting symptom - a dry cough - is fortunately not debilitating. Etc.

JustAThought

I see reports from relatively ‘normal’ people in the US who say that their lung function and lung capacity is severely impaired months later from being discharged from hospital, and then we have that ITV presenters husband who is not the only one left unresponsive in a coma after he was declared covid 19 ‘free’ and ‘recovered’ from the covid.

That and the fact that you can catch it mutiple times and have different or increasingly negative outcomes each time means I will be staying away from crowds and the pub for a while longer even when we officially ‘reopen’ .

ceadaoin.

JustAThought wrote: »

I see reports from relatively ‘normal’ people in the US who say that their lung function and lung capacity is severely impaired months later from being discharged from hospital, and then we have that ITV presenters husband who is not the only one left unresponsive in a coma after he was declared covid 19 ‘free’ and ‘recovered’ from the covid.

Well Kate Garraways husband was on a ventilator for 10 weeks. Its well known that ventilators cause lung damage and it's 50/50 whether you survive once you go on one, worse if you have covid. Its going to take a long time to come back from that, I hope he can come through it.

Hopefully as more becomes known, doctors can come up with better treatments. I thought there was talk of cpap machines being a better alternative to the high pressure ventilators but haven't seen anything about that in a while.

SusieBlue

It’s worth noting that asthma, regular pneumonia, and even a very bad chest infection can cause scarring to the lungs and reduced lung capacity too.
This is a side effect of many pulmonary diseases and ailments, not just coronavirus.

I’m asthmatic and it doesn’t give me too much trouble but I was surprised to find that my lungs are scarred after an MRI for an unrelated issue. It’s more common than you would think.

I'm not aware of any illness or injury were a person magically makes a 100% recovery the minute the illness is gone. When you are sick, you might not be able to sleep much at all. Or maybe all you can do is sleep. Your sleeping pattern can be completely destroyed which will impact you for some time. Also, people don't tend to rest enough. The minute they feel slightly better they rush back into a busy routine which can lead to regression. Treatments such as antibiotics can have side effects and take a toll on you as well.

For Covid 19 or any illness for that matter, recovered means that you no longer have the virus. Your body can still take time to get back to normal though. And that will vary from person to person based on circumstances.

Experts have been studying this disease closely all year. We would have heard about it by now if people needed months of physio to walk again or had permanent lung damage. The media love to scaremonger, they would have been all over it. of course there will be some examples but most people recover just fine within a few weeks.

Gruffalux

Peregrinus wrote: »

I was responding to a claim that the established phenomenon of clinically latent (asymptomatic) CV19 arises because the virus is latent.

It doesn't. While viral latency is, as you point out, a real thing, it has nothing to do with the asymptomatic period of CV19. During the asymptomatic period the virus is not latent, but active.

It is possible that SARS-Cov-2 wil manifest viral latency but so far as I know there is as yet no evidence that it does.

Re viral latency. Potentially.
A newspaper report from a few days ago.

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/coronavirus-a-trigger-for-rare-syndrome-which-left-three-children-hospitalised-in-dublin-new-test-confirms-39268316.html



"This new condition has recently been termed Paediatric Inflammatory Multi-System Syndrome - Temporally associated with SARS-CoV-2 (PIMS-TS) and to date has affected around 100 children in the UK with further reports of cases across Europe and the United States.

The blood test, which demonstrates the presence of different types of antibodies to the virus, showed that every child had high levels of anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies. The pattern of antibodies indicated that the infection most likely occurred weeks or even months previously. This means that antibody testing can be used to help diagnose PIMS-TS, even when virus is not directly detectable in the patient.

Dr Alex Richter, lead researcher and Consultant Immunologist at the University of Birmingham’s Institute of Institute of Immunology and Immunotherapy said: “By focusing on assay development using academic principles, we have designed a sensitive antibody test that can be used to detect exposure to SARS-CoV-2 infections. The test will be used to understand how many people have suffered from COVID-19 in our communities but we have found another use identifying PIMS-TS in these sick children.”

ceadaoin.

Gruffalox wrote: »

Re viral latency. Potentially.
A newspaper report from a few days ago.

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/coronavirus-a-trigger-for-rare-syndrome-which-left-three-children-hospitalised-in-dublin-new-test-confirms-39268316.html



"This new condition has recently been termed Paediatric Inflammatory Multi-System Syndrome - Temporally associated with SARS-CoV-2 (PIMS-TS) and to date has affected around 100 children in the UK with further reports of cases across Europe and the United States.

The blood test, which demonstrates the presence of different types of antibodies to the virus, showed that every child had high levels of anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies. The pattern of antibodies indicated that the infection most likely occurred weeks or even months previously. This means that antibody testing can be used to help diagnose PIMS-TS, even when virus is not directly detectable in the patient.

Dr Alex Richter, lead researcher and Consultant Immunologist at the University of Birmingham’s Institute of Institute of Immunology and Immunotherapy said: “By focusing on assay development using academic principles, we have designed a sensitive antibody test that can be used to detect exposure to SARS-CoV-2 infections. The test will be used to understand how many people have suffered from COVID-19 in our communities but we have found another use identifying PIMS-TS in these sick children.”

Thats not latency though. The inflammatory syndrome is a secondary condition which develops after the virus is cleared, similar to kawasaki disease. They are just using the presence of antibodies as a way of diagnosing it.

Peregrinus

Deleted User wrote: »

. . . Experts have been studying this disease closely all year. We would have heard about it by now if people needed months of physio to walk again or had permanent lung damage. The media love to scaremonger, they would have been all over it. of course there will be some examples but most people recover just fine within a few weeks.

For obvious reasons, there have as yet been no studies on the risk or prevalence of long-term sequelae from acute CV-19. But, given what we have observed so far and what is typical of other infections respiratory diseases, it would not be suprising if some patients - hopefully, a small minority, but we can't say yet - did suffer extended, and in some cases permanent, consequences, of varying severity. Time will tell. There is not a lot we can do about it until time does tell.

owlbethere

The NHPET mentioned the long tail version of this virus, I think last week. They said when someone needs to go to hospital and perhaps into ICU, it is expected that they take months to recover from ICU. It was explained that milder cases of Covid19 that doesn't even require hospital treatment, is taking some time to recover from and even at that people are still not 100%.


I can see why they were slow to report on a long tail illness. They don't want to cause panic and fear in the public but it also was important to report for 2 reasons:
1) to hammer out the message to continue to be cautious and limit crowds and limit chances of picking up the virus.
2) without reporting on the long tail, people were being set up for failure especially small businesses, maybe families with single parents, etc. People will have to have a think and perhaps plan ahead - 'what if I get this virus' 'what of I get a long tail illness' - things like that. Some sort of contingency plans.

ShineOn7

owlbethere wrote: »

The NHPET mentioned the long tail version of this virus, I think last week. They said when someone needs to go to hospital and perhaps into ICU, it is expected that they take months to recover from ICU. It was explained that milder cases of Covid19 that doesn't even require hospital treatment, is taking some time to recover from and even at that people are still not 100%.


I can see why they were slow to report on a long tail illness. They don't want to cause panic and fear in the public but it also was important to report for 2 reasons:
1) to hammer out the message to continue to be cautious and limit crowds and limit chances of picking up the virus.
2) without reporting on the long tail, people were being set up for failure especially small businesses, maybe families with single parents, etc. People will have to have a think and perhaps plan ahead - 'what if I get this virus' 'what of I get a long tail illness' - things like that. Some sort of contingency plans.

Absolutely not good enough!

The long tail/long recovery of many cases of this (even in young healthy people) needs to emphasised more

At the moment it feels like a cover up

Away With The Fairies

ShineOn7 wrote: »

Absolutely not good enough!

The long tail/long recovery of many cases of this (even in young healthy people) needs to emphasised more

At the moment it feels like a cover up

I agree. It's not good enough. We need employers to be more understanding with this.

karlitob

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Over a third... That is quite alot.

There definitely seems to be a long recovery in some. I know someone with on and off symptoms for about 8 weeks.

This is not a mild illness we were told it would be.

No one (the DoH or HSE) ever said it would be a mild illness.

They said that most people would have mild symptoms (as proved by the large number of asymtpomstics), 20% would have moderate symptoms and 1-5% would have severe symptoms, and who may die. Notwithstanding that we don’t know much about the disease.

If you selectively heard that this would be a mild illness then that’s an issue for you, but we were never told that.