Madeleine McCann

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633585#Comment_120633585

Blame wint bring that little girl back. Id imagine gerry and kate would happily spend the rest of their lives in prison if they got to spens one more day with her. The only person with any real blame is the monster who took her.

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633593#Comment_120633593

The final point you make is completely correct - that goes without saying. Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children particularly very young children. The McCann's know that had they been more responsible and less selfish on that fateful evening , Madeline would be alive today. That's a huge burden they both will have to carry for the rest of their lives.

LunaLoo

Remember what the German police said when they first announced C.B as a prime suspect, that they had proof Madeleine was dead.

So we know C.B is in prison aftwr being convicted of the rape of the elderly american lady. He filmed it and wore a mask. He was found because of dna.

We know police found thousands of images/videos containing child abuse images at his propperty in Germany.

So my theory is Madeleine was identified in those images, but no other person identifable. They've probably spent years trying to establish where exactly the images were taken from tiny details in the images and witness statements.

Also I think the parents at the time thought what they were doing was acceptable, on holidays people regularly do things that they wouldn't dream of at home. The fact the hotel offered a baby listening service shows they weren't the only ones doing it,, even butlins offered the same service at their chalets, if a staff member heard the children awake the room number would be announced to the crowd gathered at the entertainment hall. So the mccanns done what thousands of others have done, but theyre the ones who have had to pay the most unbearable price.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633817#Comment_120633817

Well if the German police found pictures of Madeleine in Brueckner's property in Germany the connection between Brueckner and Madeleine is already made. Even worse if one of the pictures leads the police to believe Madeleine is dead in the picture. Who know what kind of barbaric things Brueckner has kept at his home? I am only aware that the police were digging at his house in Germany and looking for something. Did he drive from Portugal to Germany? Could he have even taken Madeleine's body to somewhere in Germany and buried her?

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633817#Comment_120633817

That's what I think re the videos. The Germans seem very sure she's dead and that Brueckner was involved - how would they know that unless she 'featured' on some of the sick videos found? Remember, the USBs were hidden under the body of a buried dog - Brueckner obviously really did not want them found. However, unless he actually filmed himself identifiably, there's a reasonable doubt that he could have just got the video from someone else and had nothing to do with it personally and the prosecutors want to get something concrete to charge him. I saw a documentary re it where they said that the German investigation system is different to countries such as Ireland in that prosecutors 'filter' the evidence and will only charge when they have enough 'proven' good stuff to convict - rather than throwing enough mud and hoping some sticks. (This is also why Ian Bailey's French murder conviction reeks - the French (who have a similar system to the Germans) took all the bullshit evidence from the Gardai and essentially presented it as fact in his trial).

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632690#Comment_120632690

It's her parents that should be hanging their heads in shame because they left their children alone while they went socialising.

Fcuked if I'd be giving the parents a free pass. They were too scabby to pay for a babysitter even though they were fairly wealthy. I'm not saying the parents killed Maddie but they have to bear a very large chunk of responsibility for what happened.

So no, I'll not be hanging my head in shame.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634442#Comment_120634442

These videos or pictures would at least establish a link between Madeleine's disappearance and Brueckner. It would apparently also establish that Madeleine is actually dead. Whether Brueckner did the killing or somebody he knew did the killing and gave him the pictures and videos isn't established yet.

Apparently the police were gathering evidence and put them into beige bags to be taken to labs in Germany for further analysis. It's not known what they have found and put in these bags and how they could establish a link between the items found and Brueckner.

It'll be interesting if they are able to link Brueckner to the murder without reasonable doubt after so many years. Possibly a milestone in criminal investigation. DNA evidence is possibly rare at this point? Do they have Brueckner's fingerprints? Or a murder weapon? Don't know.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634633#Comment_120634633

You could sum up a disgustingly large proportion of the public reaction to the McCann saga as, "These people have just lost their child and must be going through mental anguish and torment I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. But.... let's hop on them, anyway!"

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634696#Comment_120634696

The problem is that the mistake the McCanns made is so trivial. Even worse for somebody with a university degree to make that mistake. It's like texting and driving, or driving without a seatbelt, or worse, driving at night with the headlights off. Yes, you can have luck, and nothing happens, or else, the inevitable will happen.

I'd say, public opinion is evenly split about mental anguish and torment on the one side, and the fact that it was actually their mistake to begin with. Thus the debate is endless compassion vs surprise of such a simple mistake and not having gotten into more legal trouble.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634771#Comment_120634771

They'll rue that mistake for the rest of their lives to an extent few of us here (thankfully) can ever really know. Why there would be a split on public opinion, I don't know, except that some loudmouths cannot help themselves from kicking people when they're down. OK, a person can think whatever they want to think about the McCanns' mistake, but the classy thing to do would be to withhold it in the old wisdom of, "If you have nothing nice to say..."

The problem with the McCann case is that because the real culprit wasn't quickly found, the tabloids needed a scapegoat and the McCanns were the most obvious one. Cue "VERY BAD HORRIBLE PARENTS BOOZE IT UP ON THE TOWN WHILE LITTLE MADDIE SNATCHED FROM HER BED."

Strumms

The McCanns are majorly culpable for their daughters disappearance….

if I’m a security guard on a bank, forget to lock up, don’t set the alarm and the bank is robbed overnight….. you don’t just blame the robbers….I’m majorly culpable…

if I was a parent, left children unsecured, unattended and unsupervised in a ground floor apartment in a foreign town….that was accessible to anyone…..I’m almost culpable as they are…

if they wanted nights out alone, no problem…..there are ways of achieving that…the most obvious is to book into a hotel with a reputable child minding service…

a hotel is a secure, supervised accommodation amenity… any child minding service employed or contracted will have people who have undergone an interview process as well as background checks. There would be CCTV, lots of staff looking out for guests, security etc…

Theboinkmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633310#Comment_120633310

I agree with this. The lack of empathy and compassion for the parents online is quite disgusting IMO.

There's been stories of fathers who forget their babies are in the car and leave them for the day to die. I don't jump all over them for their stupidity or carelessness.

Everyone makes mistakes and making a mistake that causes the death of your own child is horrific and those people are in hell for the rest of their lives, there's no need for everyone else to jump on them.

Armchair experts online who don't make mistakes are 100% perfect in everything they are and do....

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634845#Comment_120634845

For the tabloids this was an opportunity to make sales figures and sales quotas, nothing else. Whether it's the truth or not didn't matter to them, it never does in any case, as long as it makes them money, it's fine.

As for the rest, what do you expect as a parent, if you leave minors / infants or babies unsupervised, out of plain sight, and the door isn't even locked, - anybody can walk in, or an infant can walk out, to anywhere, into anybody's arms?

What do you expect if you're texting and driving? No accident at all? And then compassion, on how much your or other's life changed as a result of an accident if you're or others are confined to a wheelchair? It is as dumb as that.

Thus it's only logic, that if a stranger to the family can't be found as a culprit, the suspicion automatically falls upon the parents. It'll always be the other possibility, if the first possibility didn't happen. And legally the law won't be on the side of the parents, regardless, it was their undisputed negligence.

Fact is, there were only two parties who knew that Madeleine and the other children were alone that fateful night, and that was the parents and possibly their friends and somebody else, strangers like Brueckner or some burglar or child trafficker. The latter would have staked out the place, or had enough knowledge to either break in with whatever intention and there was no straight view from the tapas bar and the door to that room.

Apparently it was down to the Germans to rule out the McCanns and focus exclusively on Brueckner. Even more, the Germans knew Madeleine was dead, and they were looking for something specific, in one specific location around that reservoir.

Theboinkmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634633#Comment_120634633

So persecuting someone who has lost their child is....ok? What do you hope to gain from this? Just have a little empathy and pray her remains are found and the family find closure. You're literally kicking someone when they're down - it's horrific.

I'm sure most people here will agree losing a child is probably the worst thing imaginable that can happen to any person, so what more do you want? stick them in prison? They've endured the ultimate punishment already.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634932#Comment_120634932

Have the McCann's ever been prosecuted with regard to the events of their daughter's disappearance? If someone is suspected of criminal wrongdoing, I suggest that a case is brought against them or else keep the suspicion private. The problem is that it's all been in this grey area where that's never happened but people have taken licence to slander or berate the McCanns anyway. People just want someone to hop on. They don't care how badly they're already suffering. I would say that they've suffered enough.

Strumms

What I find odd is the use of sniffer dogs ? But on doing some research those dogs can sniff out just human bone, even buried multiple feet underground….or multiple feet, underwater…

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634894#Comment_120634894

The security guard loses their job and the parents lose their child. Are those not punishments enough or do they need a good old dose of demonisation to really salt the wound?

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635092#Comment_120635092

They don’t, but it’s a discussion and the facts are that they left 3 small children alone, unlocked in a ground floor apartment in a strange town…. Demonising and discussing are not the same thing. nobody is demonising them….

demonize

verb

gerund or present participle: demonizing

1. portray as wicked and threatening.
2. "he was demonized by the press"

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635126#Comment_120635126

And one of those children was stolen away from them, probably never to return. They've suffered about the worst outcome you could have due to leaving their children alone. However you want to phrase it as a mistake or negligence or even a crime on their part, they're more than square in how they've paid for it, so there's not much more to really be said about the case other than the person who actually took the child is hopefully found (if still alive) and made to pay for that action.

tinytobe

There is talk in German media that the police are looking for Madeleine's pink pajama as well as DNA traces. Apparently DNA traces can last 30 to 40 years.

If they find Brueckner's DNA on that pink pajama, then the case is pretty clear.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635176#Comment_120635176

It was negligent, an error of judgment, they are culpable.. it’s not how I ‘want’ to phrase it, it’s how it is.

They are not being demonised, any discussion on this topic must I believe include’ facts’… facts are being discussed.

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634930#Comment_120634930

I wouldn’t even leave my dog tied to a rail while I go into a shop. It’s beyond me that they left those kids unsupervised.

Sweet.Science

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635321#Comment_120635321

I worked with an upper class English chap before. He said he done it every year. It must be a thing they do.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635303#Comment_120635303

That's exactly it.

Now let's wait and see what they found and what the labs come up with.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635303#Comment_120635303

And the McCanns have more than paid the price in the loss of their daughter. That's a fact. If anyone here wants to suggest some extra price they should pay on top of that, please speak up.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634945#Comment_120634945

I agree with you that losing a child is probably the worst thing imaginable but clearly I clearly don't have the same level of empathy that you have for the McCanns.

I know I won't gain anything by criticising them but I have no problem highlighting the fact that they were pretty negligent in looking after their children and this negligence (in part) lead to their child going missing, presumably dead. If they or someone else was minding the kids, then this wouldn't have happened.

I don't really feel sorry for them to be honest. I feel sorry for Madeline McCann and her siblings but not so much for her parents. I actually think they were possibly criminally negligent leaving the three children there alone while they went out socialising. If they had been charged for child neglect at the time of the incident, I wouldn't have thought that surprising. I was surprised that they faced no charges whatsoever at the time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635001#Comment_120635001

I haven't been slandering the McCanns. What I stated is factual. They left their children alone while they went out socialising.

I don't really care how much they are suffering. Their child is probably dead partly because of their actions. I'll stick to my guns and keep feeling that they are partially responsible for what happened to their child and as such, won't feel too sorry for them.

happyoutscan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635957#Comment_120635957

That's fine. But we don't need to continually here it, ok?

briany

@BattleCorp

I agree with you that losing a child is probably the worst thing imaginable but clearly I clearly don't have the same level of empathy that you have for the McCanns.

Evidently. Clearly, even...

I know I won't gain anything by criticising them but I have no problem highlighting the fact that they were pretty negligent in looking after their children and this negligence (in part) lead to their child going missing, presumably dead. If they or someone else was minding the kids, then this wouldn't have happened.

I don't think the McCanns need any negligence being highlighted to them. They probably relive the night at some point every day and see every subsequent family photo missing a member. Everyone else can read the facts of the case and see that the choices the McCanns made led to pretty much the worst possible result.

I actually think they were possibly criminally negligent leaving the three children there alone while they went out socialising. If they had been charged for child neglect at the time of the incident, I wouldn't have thought that surprising. I was surprised that they faced no charges whatsoever at the time.

It's not surprising. There's no real case against them. Any legal team could fairly easily argue that it was a set of mistakes punished by circumstance. If there was a serious case against them, it would have been brought forward. It hasn't because there isn't.

I haven't been slandering the McCanns. What I stated is factual. They left their children alone while they went out socialising.

I don't believe I referred specifically to you, but it's interesting that you take it that way. Anyway, that is one fact. Another is that they lost a daughter out of it. That's some 'time for the crime'.

I don't really care how much they are suffering.

Evidently. Clearly.

Their child is probably dead partly because of their actions

In the event she's dead, I'd say the person who actually killed her bears the brunt of the blame.

I'll stick to my guns and keep feeling that they are partially responsible for what happened to their child and as such, won't feel too sorry for them.

I'm sure you will and sure you won't.

tinytobe

It's interesting how this discussion is going on. I get the impression the female posters are all into compassion and grief with the parents, and the male posters about the laws and responsibility of a parent.

As for the rest of things, in order to prove murder there must be a body. So far no body has ever been found.

I think the German police only have hints that Madeleine is dead, but no real evidence. If there was evidence they would have released that information. To date they haven't.

I am still wondering, how they are going to convict Brueckner if there isn't a body?

Apparently they are going to search for a 3rd day.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634894#Comment_120634894

They could have brought out a paid au pair, they are doctors, and could have afforded that.

lbunnae

Wonder what the child neglect laws are in Portugal? People referring to it as a simple mistake , I hope you don't have kids. Leaving young kids alone in an apartment while they go out on the piss is mental. I wonder would they have gotten less compassion if they weren't doctors.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636749#Comment_120636749

Or bluntly and undiplomatically said, for somebody of their education they could have acted smarter.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633585#Comment_120633585

No they weren’t “criminally negligent”. If they were then they would have been charged with a crime.

This has all been done to death. 3 separate states in Europe have decided that the McCanns didn’t commit any crime yet here you are still banging this drum 16 years later. It’s not a matter of opinion either. It’s fact. You can say that you think it was negligent of them if you like. I don’t know what objective you have in repeating this. Can you explain?

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634771#Comment_120634771

What difference does having a degree make to parenting? Are you implying that parents without 3rd level education are inferior?? Do you have an academic study to back this up?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636967#Comment_120636967

This is besides the point. It was a mistake anybody with even a lower degree of common sense would have avoided, - again blunt and undiplomatic.

Do you leave your jewelry and other valuables unlocked and out of sight in a hotel room? Or the keys in your car and papers as well?

So why would you leave your children in an unlocked room and the entrance door out of sight?

Duke of Schomberg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636954#Comment_120636954

And the fact that they weren't is what is surprising. If you left your children at home in an unlocked house and went down to a local bar and the same happened you wouldn't get off scott-free. I suspect that it's because it happened in Portugal, in the sense that the Portuguese authorities saw no point in punishing non-nationals - if it had happened at home in Leicester I think things would have been very different.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637025#Comment_120637025

You’re trying to move the goalposts. You quite clearly said that them having a 3rd level education meant that for you, they should have been better parents than those of us who never went to college.

This is a weird and slightly creepy view of parenting for me. I can’t imagine what it must be like for you judging people’s parenting skills on the basis of wether or not they got enough points in the leaving for a BA in UL.

You must find the concept of parenting in Ireland up until 20 years ago utterly abhorrent. All those parents who left school at 14 minding their own children. Terrifying stuff.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637050#Comment_120637050

Surprising to whom? You? Who are you that you think you would have a legal opinion on wether the McCanns should have been charged or not and with what?

100s of detectives from 3 different countries have poured all over the evidence, professional law enforcement people, for 16 years and no charges have ever been brought.

Yet here you are, an anonymous poster on SM, who has seen no evidence apart from what you’ve read in the media, and you declare yourself to be surprised?!? Don’t make me laugh.

The odious Gonçalo Amaral was slobbering at the mouth for months to charge the McCanns with something just to further his own career. Not out of any care for the missing child. His own corrupt career. He got his just desserts.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637050#Comment_120637050

This is exactly it. Sadly some posters here don't seem to comprehend that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637077#Comment_120637077

You ever heard the saying "a man of your education would have noticed that"? That's what I've meant. Something down the line "don't play dumb with me, as you are smart" and "even a fool would have known that"......

And as the other poster said, suppose you left your children at home alone in an unlocked house and went to some bar or restaurant, what would happen to you?

What would give the McCanns the right to get off lightly from a legal perspective? ( Grief and compassion set a side, it's a legal question not a sobbing about loss of a child )

As harsh as it is, by leaving their children alone in an unlocked hotel room they've contributed to making this disappearance possible, and quite possibly also murder.

Strumms

What I cannot get my head around is… they made that decision as doctors…. Lots of medical experience, social experience, as well placed as anyone to see the bad in life….the potential for trouble….They’d have dealt with people who’ve been the victims of gruesome crime, assault, probably attempted murder, rape, molestation, etc…. If it was Peter and Una, two hippy middle class flower arrangers from Cornwall, you might say 🙄… naive pair….eejits etc….

but for two doctors to come to that decision just that it’s ok, to leave not just Madeline, but two year old twins, all unsupervised in a ground floor apartment … in a foreign country….that’s nuts…. Completely nuts…

they have serious culpability. As much as I’d empathise with them….

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637132#Comment_120637132

You are one of those people who gets a creepy “buzz” out of damning and criticising people who have publicly suffered horrendously. It’s so weird. What do you get out of this?

You are almost laughably trying to compare the McCanns sitting outside 50 yards away from where their children lay sleeping, as you might if you were sitting in the garden on a summers night, and checking on them every 1/2 hour or so, with another couple leaving their kid in an unlocked house and getting a taxi into town to get pissed.

That’s just sad.

And you’re doing it so you can get a bit of a kick out of metaphorically punching someone who’s lying on the ground unconscious.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637200#Comment_120637200

I could ask you the same question, what do you get out of this?

The posting is very clear.

Strumms10:13 pm

What I cannot get my head around is… they made that decision as doctors…. Lots of medical experience, social experience, as well placed as anyone to see the bad in life….the potential for trouble….They’d have dealt with people who’ve been the victims of gruesome crime, assault, probably attempted murder, rape, molestation, etc…. If it was Peter and Una, two hippy middle class flower arrangers from Cornwall, you might say 🙄… naive pair….eejits etc….

but for two doctors to come to that decision just that it’s ok, to leave not just Madeline, but two year old twins, all unsupervised in a ground floor apartment … in a foreign country….that’s nuts…. Completely nuts…

they have serious culpability. As much as I’d empathise with them….

tinytobe

....

briany

@tinytobe

What would give the McCanns the right to get off lightly from a legal perspective? ( Grief and compassion set a side, it's a legal question not a sobbing about loss of a child )

That they made errors in judgement while the worst of circumstances loomed around unbeknownst to them. Even today, most parents are not operating under the assumption that monstrous paedophiles are constantly lurking in the shadows, waiting to abduct their children at a moment's notice. If it's a pure legal question with the emotional aspect cast aside, I could theoretically make a case that Denise Bulger should be in the frame, legally, for negligence when she let go of her son's hand to turn around and pay for her shopping, thus giving her son's killers the opportunity to lead him away. I wouldn't, though, because that would be disgusting.

As harsh as it is, by leaving their children alone in an unlocked hotel room they've contributed to making this disappearance possible, and quite possibly also murder.

I would say the person who really makes a murder possible is the murderer. Mad one, I know.

Strumms

The possibility of abduction and probable murder was made possible by her parents, leaving her to go for a meal.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637377#Comment_120637377

The possibility and probable murder was made possible by this hypothetical murderer sneaking into the apartment, abducting her and murdering her. That's the person who needs to be brought to justice if this is indeed what happened.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637025#Comment_120637025

Because you would expect your jewellery or car to be robbed. Nobody would expect a monster to kidnap and kill your child. Idiotic comparison.

josip

And I came on here hoping to find some discussion about progress at the reservoir or what they were likely to find after all those years.

Gusser09

You'd expect they must have some solid intel to be searching like this. Certain tipp offs is what is being said so possibly the german confided in someone he had murdered Madeline and disposed of the body at this location. Id imagine german police also have digital evidence that he had contact with the poor kid.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637297#Comment_120637297

You’ve reposted someone else’s contribution in response to me. Is there something wrong with this post? What point are you trying to make exactly?