Madeleine McCann

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678212#Comment_120678212

"Impossible that Smith saw Gerry McCann"

Not impossible at all. The timelines are all approximate. Kate McCann went to do her check at "around 10pm". The Smiths also use the word "around" when saying what time they left the bar. You`d comfortably walk 500 yards in less than 10 minutes.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679051#Comment_120679051

It is impossible, based on what the events are as we know them. If Gerry had been verifiably absent, without knowledge of his whereabouts, from the Tapas table for any appreciable length of time since arriving back from his 9 PM check, and especially around the 10 PM mark, you'd think that would be an extremely huge detail of the case, given how much of a microscope everything else is under. I've never seen that mentioned. Therefore, he must be at the Tapas the whole time since, meaning whoever Smith saw was not Gerry McCann.

It's only not impossible in the semantic sense of, "not impossible if...", and proceeding to invent details and suppositions in order to make things fit, but if we're doing that, we can say anything.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679136#Comment_120679136

Well he was verifiably absent at around 9pm when it was remarked upon by the diners that he was gone for longer than he should have been. Are you satisfied as to his whereabouts after about 10-05pm when a frantic and probably disorganized search for Madeleine began? I`m not. If for example, Gerry was seen moving the body by the Smiths, he might only have been gone for 15 to 20 minutes and in the confusion of searchers heading off in different directions wouldn`t have been missed. Martin Smith said he was 60% to 80% certain that the man he saw was Gerry McCann. This would make me question the Smiths understanding of the time they left the bar. They all say "around", indicating uncertainty.

The fact is, Martin Smith got something wrong. If he is right about the time, he is probably wrong about the identification. If he is right about the identification, he is probably wrong about the time.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679587#Comment_120679587

You may not be satisfied about Gerry's whereabouts at the time in question, but it would appear that the relevant authorities are, being that it's not been a sticking point for them in sixteen years of the case. Gerry is reported as stopping to chat with a fellow holidaymaker following on from his 9.05 check, stopping to chat for around 10 minutes with a fellow holidaymaker, if memory serves.

Again, if we're delving into what could be the case you need evidence of it, otherwise it's just a rhetorical exercise and not helpful to any serious investigation.

happyoutscan

Couple of things.

Martin Smith said whomever he saw was on the thin side and did not look like a tourist.

He was also carrying the child in an area (near the Estrela) where someone staying at the Ocean probably would not need to be familiar with it as it was off the beaten path location wise.

Robert Nairac

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678212#Comment_120678212

Do you think Martin Smith is mistaken and it was just another holiday-goer walking him with his kid?

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680094#Comment_120680094

Gerry was at the Tapas restaurant when Kate comes running out saying that someone took Madeleine. I've never heard a report that he returned from a place unknown shortly before this occurs, and it would be the biggest oversight in the history of the investigation if that was a detail that wasn't looked into. So, we can only understand that he was there in the Tapas restaurant on the before side of 'around 10 PM'. On the after side of 'around 10 PM', Gerry is reported to have instructed Matthew Oldfield to ask resort staff to phone the police. This is reported to have occurred at 10:10 PM. That's at least a 20 minute time frame around the Smith sighting where Gerry is at the Tapas restaurant.

Unless (Mission Impossible music) ....

Upon hearing Kate's cry of Madeleine being missing, Gerry uses the confusion to dive into the apartment, take Madeleine out of the fridge, and run up the street with her while people are beginning to line out to see what the matter is, evading being sighted by each one of them, except Smith, dumping her at an unknown location, before dashing back to the resort to inform Matthew Oldfield to phone the police.

Personally, if I were going to move a body in this way, I'd do it before the hubbub. But that's me.

Anyway, no. Based on all that we know, it couldn't really have been Gerry.

If people want to get hung up on that sighting, I will just remind them that there's at least as credible an ID that someone saw Madeleine in a Moroccan petrol station almost a week after she went missing, and that would pretty much directly contradict the 'parents killed Maddie'. Maybe some people will parlay this into a 'they sold her into slavery' theory or something, though.

happyoutscan

Considering where Martin Smith said he met the man carrying the child - and the direction the man was walking - I'd say there is a big chance it was Madeleine. The man/child were coming from the direction of the Estrela which does not make much sense as there is nothing up there (restaurants/pubs) etc.

If the man/child was heading in the direction of the Estrela you could assume it was a father bringing a tired child back to wherever they were staying.

It wasn't Gerry McCann.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680184#Comment_120680184

I have never disputed where Gerry was, from say 9-30 to 10-10. I`m more interested in where he was from 10-10 to about 10-40 given there`s a possibility that Smith has his timing wrong. It is apparent that you don`t know much detail about this case and you are googling as you go along, which is surprising given the amount of time you invested arguing against child negligence.

Thanks for the heads up on the Moroccan sighting. I wasn`t aware it is considered to be as credible as Smiths.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680675#Comment_120680675

Are you satisfied as to his whereabouts after about 10-05pm when a frantic and probably disorganized search for Madeleine began? I`m not.

Firstly, there's no need for the snarky reply. Secondly, I take it you're now satisfied as to his whereabouts at around 10:05 PM and after, now that you're shifting the question to where he was at 10:10 to 10:40 PM. He was at the resort at 10:10 PM. Anything going beyond that is really starting to stretch the definition of 'around 10 PM'.

Strange to be accusing others of not knowing much about the case when it's you asking questions of where Gerry was at around 10:05 PM. It's not a particularly hard detail to find.

There needs to be credible evidence that he was gone in this later span of time, other wise it's just another case of what's possible and that's a very large Venn diagram indeed.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680717#Comment_120680717

You should re-read what I`ve been saying. I`ve never suggested that Gerry was anywhere other than the Tapas bar when Kate returned. You`ve quoted an earlier post of mine where I ask where was Gerry after 10-05. Given that all times of events are approximate, do you not think that 10-10 to 10-40 is not after 10-05? I`d say you`d stick your nose into an argument about the colour of shite.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680757#Comment_120680757

Going past 10:10 PM is seriously stretching the definition of 'around' 10 PM. 10:40 is nowhere near 'around' 10 PM. It's nearer 11 PM. Bringing that stretch of time into it has nothing to do with the Smith sighting. It's been accepted after sixteen years that the sighting occurs around 10 PM. Not 10:15 PM. Not 10:30 PM. Approximately 10 PM.

It's a ridiculous theory to say that while people are starting to line out on the street and find out that a little girl is missing that this would be the time that Gerry McCann would duck out and decide to move her.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680809#Comment_120680809

"Going past 10-10pm is seriously stretching"

No it isn`t. Beyond 10-30 maybe but by then Gerry could have been on his way back to base.

"people are starting to line out on the street"

No they`re not. Why would you even think that? Initially you would have had a panicked search by the Tapas 7. Things would have only become more organized later on. Anyway 12k + posts says it all.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680874#Comment_120680874

It is most certainly stretching the definition when it comes to the investigation of a serious crime, as minutes matter.

Once Kate comes running down to the Tapas, shouting, this is the point where other holiday makers are alerted to the fact that something is wrong and begin to come out onto the street to see what the trouble is. We know that the alarm is well and truly raised by 10:10 as this is when the police are first called and people are already looking around in the immediate vicinity for Madeleine while waiting for police to come or asking what was going on, and the police don't come right away, leading Gerry and a friend to go back to reception and call the police again, which would put him in the resort well past 10:10 PM.

happyoutscan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680874#Comment_120680874

You're doing a lot of stretching in order to implicate Gerry into your suspicions.

I really do not see why you think as you do?

Also, may I ask out of curiosity what you meant by the '12,000+ says it all comment' against Briany?

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683482#Comment_120683482

There's no credibility in the idea that Smith saw Gerry.

According to this Sunday Times article, Smith later retracted the belief that he saw Gerry.

Smith has since stressed that he does not believe the man he saw was Gerry, and Scotland Yard do not consider this a possibility. Last week the McCanns were told officially by the Portuguese authorities that they are not suspects.

It's really quite amazing how much public perception of the case and the events therein is based on sensationalist tabloid headlines, rumour and spin.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683576#Comment_120683576

Pretty sure I read that he never retracted his belief that it was Gerry.

tibruit

Smith never retracted his identification of Gerry McCann and came out publicly to say so after BBC`s Panorama said he did. Panorama later admitted their error or spin or whatever you fancy calling it.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683576#Comment_120683576

"It`s really quite amazing how much public perception of the case and the events therein is based on sensationalist tabloid headlines, rumour and spin."

Yes indeedy.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683482#Comment_120683482

I`m not stretching and I`m actually open minded about who might be responsible. I`m not trying to implicate Gerry. I just don`t see how he can be ruled out. The times are approximate. The time of Kates return to the table is and the time the Smiths left their bar is. The Smiths were only minutes away from the scene. The 10-10 phone call wasn`t made by Gerry.

MonkieSocks

The Hazel Behan case:

She’s an amazing lady. She was a local councillor for a few years, and IIRC this was before she came forward publicly about the attack.

A true public-spirited person.

I hope she has her day in court.

https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2023/06/16/a-victims-plea-to-madeleine-mccann-attacker-christian-brueckner-youre-a-loser-i-survived-and-am-loved-and-free/

Jequ0n

So much false bravado…hopefully she has at least herself convinced

batistuta9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664764#Comment_120664764

Nothing again

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/madeleine-mccann-latest-news-today-2023-b2372238.html

Gusser09

I'm always skeptical when these searches take place around the anniversary of disappearance. The Garda do the same thing over here too. All they are doing is trying to keep the case live in the public sphere. I've no doubt that they believe they have the right man but bar a confession it's hard to see them pining on it him.

Robert Nairac

The Dispatches programme from October 2007 is very interesting. Nobody opened that window from the outside.

nc6000

Sure wasn't the apartment door left open? No need to use the window at all.

TheW1zard

Gerry did it

nc6000

An interesting development....

https://news.sky.com/story/plot-to-kidnap-child-hatched-a-week-before-madeleine-mccann-disappeared-13066078

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738457#Comment_121738457

I saw that on Sky earlier. Very interesting. From the various documentaries I have watched, its obvious that communication between Scotland Yard and the Portuguese Police can charitably be described as strained. So, it easy to imagine that Mr Ralphs statement in 2007 was lost.

Gusser09

No doubt we will have the usual "break throughs" news flashs coming up in May. The media are milking it.

Roald Dahl

Hopefully they finally bring this vile Christian Brückner creature to trial and get the conviction.

He has been openly referred to by his full name and no longer as "Christian B." in the German media now for some years, so I don't understand why the British media is unnecessarily complying with the German Press Code, which they are not subject to, and refraining from using his full name.

briany

An interesting development which once again raises the possibility that Madeleine is alive and well.

Although if this was really Bruckner's plan, it would make me ask why an avowed paedophile suddenly wanted to become an illegal adoption agent? Money? OK, but what childless couple is willing to purchase kids with no papers off the Buy&Sell? And wouldn't Bruckner want to do stuff to the kids in the meantime.

The plan in its entirety seems a bit audacious.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744092#Comment_121744092

I think Christian B, is not simply a pedofile but a full on sexual predator. He is currently serving a 7 year sentence for raping an elderly woman.

As for your question, what childless couple would be willing to purchase a child? There are numerous documented cases of this happening. It does happen. So it is a valid theory.

I assume he had a couple lined up. Not:

1. Kidnap kid
2. ???
3. 3. Profit.

What is his motivation, just money? Money is the reason you went to work today. Its a strong driver for people to do things they dont want to do.

Robert Nairac

I think it is very interesting that Jim Gamble used to believe Gerry McCann was responsible for many years until he met and personally befriended Gerry. Hmm. #1 McCann advocate in the time since.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744185#Comment_121744185

I think active paedophiles have no compunction about what they turn their sexual energies to, they are rarely “just nonces” from what I can tell. I had a friend who committed suicide years after being raped by her father. I used to be around her family home quite frequently. I was helping prepare a meal, adding lemon juice to a fruit salad. Father comes behind me, puts both hands down my breasts right in front of his wife who says “he’s a terrible man, don’t be encouraging him”. He was nonstop trying to get me to go out for drives with him, his wife kept egging me on. His fascination for me had first become mainfest during paid photographic work I had done for a publication of which he was editor in chief. My friend was an absolute angel of a girl, a brilliant person, that’s why I tried to stand by.

Years later I read in the papers he had sexually abused boys he had taught.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744092#Comment_121744092

I can’t see how she could still be alive. Even if the kidnap story was true she was more or less unsellable after the excessive and prolonged media attention.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744480#Comment_121744480

If a kidnap took place, she could have been handed over well before it blew up into the media storm we saw later. Within hours probably. If Bruckner knew of or had actually been approached by a couple, then they likely were staying nearby, not some randoms back in Germany.

Still, I no longer believe in leads and stories, none have ever panned out.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744653#Comment_121744653

Even if she had been handed over for cash she would have been too recognisable to keep. Why would anyone face that risk really.

I don’t think anyone believes in any leads any more.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744480#Comment_121744480

I say 'possibility' rather than 'expectation'.

Anyway, if this is a real lead, an interview with Bruckner will take place, if it has not done already. I'm sure he'd be quite willing to tell the police whatever he knows, if he knows anything, in exchange for leniency on his current sentence.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744699#Comment_121744699

Assuming Bruckner had a couple waiting, no-one could have predicted the media storm that transpired. Hundreds of kids go missing every year that we never hear about, they would have assumed the same here.

By the time the media craziness started, she'd be back in (presumeably) Germany. She wasn't school going age yet, so she would be just be at home, no opportunities for anyone to see her. Even home schooling her, it could be years before anyone gets to see her. Then, move to a new area and introduce her as your daughter. I doubt anyone would make the link, especially as kids change in appearance in their younger years, and there are a lot of blonde kids in Germany. When I was 2 I was almost blonde, I now have dark brown hair.

Anyway, this is all purely theory, and really not a lead, just another sign pointing at Bruickner.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744727#Comment_121744727

Yes, I kidnapped and sold a child, now how about cutting me some slack for raping the old lady.

Hmmm... not sure that's going to work.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744727#Comment_121744727

He has been interviewed and denies any knowledge of it.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744767#Comment_121744767

Also not worth opening that can of worms for a mere 7 year sentence

Musicrules

Bruckner is clearly a sicko who should be put down. No evidence links him to Madeleine McCann though. Still more evidence on the parents.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768127#Comment_121768127

Well he was in the area at the time of the abduction.

The parents? Oh FFS.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768189#Comment_121768189

There were lots of people in the area at the time. That's not evidence. And there also isn't any evidence that it was an abduction.

Yes, the parents. Still the strongest piece of evidence is the cadaver evidence in the room.

Mike3549

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768214#Comment_121768214

What cadaver evidence? Don't tell me you're talking about the dogs that found them, the dogs that lost their licence later cos in their career they found f#ck all

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768239#Comment_121768239

Found f#ck all? Trevor Hamilton wishes that were true. You want to Google him there?

Here’s a link to the work of cadaver dog Eddie who helped solve the case of murdered Librarian, Attracta Harran:

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/strabane-murder-sniffer-dog-on-netflix-maddie-series/37938452.html

This dog proved his worth, and did detect the existence of cadaver scent in the case of Madeleine’s disappearance.

LambshankRedemption

I was looking for the interview John Cleese did many years ago. The interviewer asked him where did he get the ideas for the plots of Fawlty Towers, and he said a hotel manager had told him that people dying in hotel rooms was commonplace, so that was the inspiration for the corpse and the kipper.

I asked a friend who is a Hotel Manager, if this was true, and he said "Well, I wouldnt say common place, but it happens".

The cadavar dog indicates there was a dead body in the room at some point in the past. Could easily have been another guest.